Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Akedia
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, I got used to working with creative people over several decades, and some of them used to have what I came to call pre-natal and post-natal depression, around a major piece of work.
There are certainly different facets to this - for example, some people experience considerable guilt over being creative (the Promethean syndrome); some people feel it is worthless; and there is a kind of 'birth-pang' associated with creativity for some.
And I know people who are as creative an unadorned section of pavement who react the same. ISTM, it is about acceptance, doubt and stress. IMO the "tortured genious" is an overused trope. In part because we allow behaviours in an artist that we do not in an engineer. "Oh, my design is worthless! I am a failure! That road curve is at least 20% less efficient than it could be! And a child could have done those drainage calcs." Tantrum - Artist = sigh "Creatives." Tantrum - Engineer = "You're fired."
Are you saying that engineers are not creative? That surprises me.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Boogie:
I would think God's Spirit would treat us with love, kindness and gentleness - not lay us low.
Voluntary Obedience together with Voluntary Poverty are probably the monastic concepts that contemporary Western minds most struggle to comprehend. The virtue of obedience does not require any kind of corresponding virtue of command from ones human interlocutors. The key thing is a pruning of self will. It is a recognition that the roots not only of our sins but of our unhappinesses are to be found in an inordinate love of having our own way.
The discipline of obedience teaches us, eventually, that happiness proceeds from the love of God flowing unobstructedly into us and then through us to our neighbours. By the process which the philosopher Simone Weil called 'de creation' we demolish the self our ego has created in order to create the space that allows God to be God as He really is and us to be us as we really are and not the imagined simulacrums of both which currently inhabit our minds and hearts.
Obedience is a tool which leads to humility and humility is simply that state in which we see with clarity the truth about ourselves. Or as I recently put it in my blog-
quote: The point here, which Mary above all others is qualified to make, is that in some sense 'humility' means the same thing as 'truth'. In understanding herself as being fragile and vulnerable and dependant upon the mercy of God, subject to an innumerable number of hazards of nature and man's design, any one of which could strike her down in an instant, the Virgin recognises the absolute truth about her status as a human.
Conceited Hearts and an Immaculate One
[code] [ 06. February 2014, 17:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
-------------------- My Blog Catholic Scot http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/ @stevhep on Twitter
Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quetzalcoatl,
I am not saying creativity and engineering are mutually exclusive. They are not, Leonardo being the most obvious example. However, creativity is not a job requirement. One can quite literally design a perfectly functional, aesthetically pleasing bridge by the book. One can also find creatives whose creativity is at minimum spec, so...
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by Majorminor: I like the description that it makes the spiritual life seem like a chore, rather than a gift of God's grace. Therefore, all spiritual exercises and acts of service become either a chore, or boring.
I think I was born with it.
Posts: 31 | From: East Staffs | Registered: Jan 2014
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by Majorminor: I like the description that it makes the spiritual life seem like a chore, rather than a gift of God's grace. Therefore, all spiritual exercises and acts of service become either a chore, or boring.
I think I was born with it.
I can't tell whether you're serious, M the M. I'm also a tad nervous because 1) I'm clearly incapable of managing the 'quote' buttons successfully, and 2) I've inadvertedly started a depression versus accedie argument (now taken to Hell).
Posts: 31 | From: East Staffs | Registered: Jan 2014
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by Majorminor: I like the description that it makes the spiritual life seem like a chore, rather than a gift of God's grace. Therefore, all spiritual exercises and acts of service become either a chore, or boring.
I think I was born with it.
I can't tell whether you're serious, M the M. I'm also a tad nervous because 1) I'm clearly incapable of managing the 'quote' buttons successfully, and 2) I've inadvertedly started a depression versus accedie argument (now taken to Hell).
Posts: 31 | From: East Staffs | Registered: Jan 2014
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DOEPUBLIC
Shipmate
# 13042
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Posted
Unforced rhythms of grace.
Depression exists on a spectrum and as such can be perceived with the light shed upon the context.
The word 'depression' can be used loosely resulting sadly in a misunderstanding of its clinical reality.
Spiritual Depression can be distinguished from depressive symptoms in other parts of one's persona ( i.e. Physical, Emotional, Rational, Spiritual, Optional, Notional, Aspirational).
In addition, aspects of language, interpretation, socialising, empowerment and discernment can signal levels of disconnect, as one considers how personalised one's experience is.
The context of the Space being experienced in terms of Safety,Purpose, Access,Comfort, Expression also have implications.
The continuum of boundary, conflict, tension, pressure, stress, strain, distress, depression can also give insight.
In comparison Akedia, which I meet for the first time would appear a term to identify willful choice of a person to do not do what is perceived right. A deliberate choice to forcefully change an acceptable rhythm, disguised by small discrete choices.
Leading me to conclude that lack of compassion towards depression is a clear case of Akedia.
As an aside. Connection to the natural world allows the experiencing of a rhythm of life with continuity which can either resonate or dissonance.
Let's meet people where they are rather than where we would expect them to be. Otherwise it becomes 'depressing' [ 09. February 2014, 15:48: Message edited by: DOEPUBLIC ]
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DOEPUBLIC
Shipmate
# 13042
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Posted
'to do not do what' should read 'to not do what'
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DOEPUBLIC
Shipmate
# 13042
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Posted
Would appear that DD may have got stuck up her own 'totem'pole. Demonstrating the disconnect that language can provide, especially when being clinically deconstructed without a deep sense of humanity.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Please keep the personal comments to the relevant Hell thread. Thank you for your cooperation.
/hosting
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Hebdom
Shipmate
# 14685
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Posted
I have suffered from akedia on more than one occasion. My remedy is to discuss it with my spiritual director and/or confessor, determining beforehand that I will act on the advice given to me. That takes the element of self from it and weakens its power.
I have found Rowan William's Silence and Honey cakes helpful. Towards the back of the book there is a Q and A section where Williams is asked how he handles it.
"The only solution is to let myself be drawn deeper into the present moment....Opening the moment to God, letting yourself be drawn into its depth with him..."
Kathleen Norris has also written a book on it which I have heard is good, but haven't read.
Posts: 163 | From: Terra australis | Registered: Mar 2009
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
Thanks, Hebdom. It was the response Rowan Williams gave in the QA appendix of his book that prompted my initial Q on this thread. I'm reading the Norris book now. Her description of akedia, as something which causes a breakdown of the believer's friendship with God, prompts me to think my issue isn't actually acedia, but depression. See above, and the subsequent thread on 'Hell' for further discussion on this. But I'm very grateful to fellow shipmates for their descriptions, and pointers to other resources.
Posts: 31 | From: East Staffs | Registered: Jan 2014
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DOEPUBLIC
Shipmate
# 13042
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Posted
Links I have collected during my illness
blog [ 12. February 2014, 14:47: Message edited by: DOEPUBLIC ]
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Desert Daughter: Acadia/Depression is very often the price one pays for understanding things.
Nonsense.
quote:
There seems to be a tendency amongst some to try to clearly differentiate Acedia from Depression. After all, Acedia is considered to be a "sin", and depression has, in modern discourse, been clearly declared to be an "illness", hence 'not-evil'.
Depression is an illness, and is therefore not a sin. Nothing of the kind.
The kind of behaviour that might be a sin is that where the person has a choice; they can choose to be active or not, and they choose not to be. This is not what depression is; in depression our choices become immensely restricted, and our ability to deal with those choices even more so. In my own case, the most effective behaviour is to simply go to bed, as St Isaac of Syria recommends. This may look like sloth, but it is exactly the opposite; it is a protection against negative behaviours, and against attempting to engage with the world when I am particularly fragile and vulnerable.
Sin is only sin when we firstly know the difference between right and wrong, and secondly make a choice to do what we know to be wrong. There is absolutely no comparison to be made between the involuntary inactivity of depression and the voluntary inactivity of laziness.
It is not a sin to be unwell; if in doubt, remember this exchange: 'Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' 'Neither.'
[code] [ 12. February 2014, 15:35: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Not sure I see the connection to acedia in those latest links, DOEPUBLIC? Maybe I'm being dumb. It's been a long day; this Host's brain is a bit jellified.
-------------------- Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Hebdom
Shipmate
# 14685
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Posted
MajorMinor, pleased you have been able to discern which of the two it is, and for you as you seek recovery. It's always the first question I ask myself - akedia or depression - and with practice it becomes easier to tell. Akedia for me is a boredom with all things religious, but the other classic signs of depression are not there.
Posts: 163 | From: Terra australis | Registered: Mar 2009
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DOEPUBLIC
Shipmate
# 13042
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Barnabas62: Not sure I see the connection to acedia in those latest links, DOEPUBLIC? Maybe I'm being dumb. It's been a long day; this Host's brain is a bit jellified.
Part of the thread and side thread in hell have related to experience of illness, in particular depression. I felt these links would be of help as they helped me.Feel free to remove at your leisure. (for consistency I posted on both threads)
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
No that's fine. I appreciate the overlap and thanks for the explanation. They do no harm where they are and they may help a Shipmate.
-------------------- Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Yonatan: In mental health terms, sounds very similar to dysthymia.
Ah this is interesting. I've had it suggested that I suffer from dysthymia and when I looked it up it seemed like a correct diagnoses.
-------------------- C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~ Philip Purser Hallard http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Desert Daughter: So seeking to sharply distinguish between the two is a merely pseudo-academic (and rather futile) exercise; the Zeitgeist of course might have it otherwise, but in the end both are afflictions of the soul and as such, sin or not, must be addresed with a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.
Serious question. Are the anti-depressants I take to stop me wanting to kill myself interacting with my soul? Can souls be affected by material chemicals?
nb I don't necessarily believe in the existence of souls I ask more for the sake of argument.
-------------------- C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~ Philip Purser Hallard http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by George Spigot: quote: Originally posted by Desert Daughter: So seeking to sharply distinguish between the two is a merely pseudo-academic (and rather futile) exercise; the Zeitgeist of course might have it otherwise, but in the end both are afflictions of the soul and as such, sin or not, must be addresed with a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.
Serious question. Are the anti-depressants I take to stop me wanting to kill myself interacting with my soul? Can souls be affected by material chemicals?
nb I don't necessarily believe in the existence of souls I ask more for the sake of argument.
Interesting question, George. Yes, it depends on what you mean by soul, but if you take it minimally as the self, or the construct of self, then chemicals definitely interact with that, since it has a neurological correlate.
If you take soul more mystically, it is still embodied, and therefore affected by chemicals.
In fact, medication is indispensable for some people, as you indicate.
Splitting soul from body can lead to the dangerous view that one should stop taking medication, and simply pray. No.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
I am about to start taking a medication, fludrocortisone, which is known to sometimes provoke depression and suicidal thoughts so the question of the link between material causes and spiritual outcomes is a very live topic for me. I have no ready made answer to these questions and would love to hear what others might think.
-------------------- My Blog Catholic Scot http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/ @stevhep on Twitter
Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The simplest response I can give, within the limits (imposed and inherent) of this forum is that we are called upon to love God with all our heart, mind and strength.
Without splitting tripartite/bipartite/monopartite hairs and so on, I think that means using every aspect of our being to love God to the extent of our abilities. Inevitably these may be limited in one way or another.
Often, due to our human condition, addressing a problem in one realm will inevitably have adverse knock-on effects in another.
Sometimes we are in a position to weigh up the costs/benefits of a given solution and sometimes we have little choice. If we do our best to come to a responsible decision with the help of God, I don't think our soul is going to suffer any long-term consequences.
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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