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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The CofE up North in the Guardian
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I have been to Cirencester, Bath and Bristol as well as our ancestral home in Bucks. Do any of those count as North
Not even close.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I heard Helen and Patrick Mukholi speak a few years back. They are CMS partners from the Mombasa Diocese in East Africa who came to the UK to do this missionary work in the Blackbird Leys estates near Oxford, so not the north of England, but definitely missionary work in a deprived area. They found the effects on their son hard - and the choices about his schooling.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Are there any comments on my post or is the North so horrible? I have been to Cirencester, Bath and Bristol as well as our ancestral home in Bucks. Do any of those count as North ... ?
Sir Kevin, put simply, no. I may be putting my foot in it with reference to a culture I don't know, but it would be like calling up-state New York, the Mid-West.
Where the north starts depends where you're looking at it from. In Newcastle, Yorkshire is in the south. But it's generally assumed to start when you cross the Trent.
Bath and Bristol are definitely in the West, even though there's more than 150 miles to go before you eventually fall off the end. It's a bit questionable whether Cirencester is in the West or the southern part of the Midlands. Buckinghamshire is definitely in the Home Counties.
The best way to find out what Hartlepool is like isn't to ask other people but to go and visit it. It's not far from Durham and Newcastle which are both well worth a visit.
Something else which people who only know the south east of England often don't appreciate is that large tracts of the north of England are rural, a lot of it very rural.
Blackbird Leys, incidentally, may be in Oxford, but that doesn't mean it isn't rough.
[ 19. February 2014, 16:22: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
African Anglicans have plenty of work to do in their own countries, first of all. In the area I'm familiar with (West Africa) there are a growing number of prosperity gospel/miracle healing churches that are fleecing people of the little money they have in exchange for "power prayers" leading to health and wealth. Many of these are deeply corrupt and hurting people's faiths and wallets. Orthodox (small "o" here) churches stand as a counterpoint to this type of activity.
Another point is that there may be concerns or fears among black or ethnic minority clergy in the CofE about their ability to lead and evangelize in less diverse parts of the country, where they may face discrimination.
Few parts of the country have been entirely able to escape racial diversity, although nowhere is quite like London in that respect.
Regarding the challenge in Africa from prosperity churches, the RCC doesn't appear to be too worried about that; it willingly sends African clergy to Europe (even to rural areas) despite the fact that the ratio of priests to laity is much worse in Africa than in Europe.
Each denomination must make its own calculations about where the need is greatest and about where the most good can be done, obviously. But that's not much help to the CofE churches of the North of England. I think they probably need to start doing church in a totally different way. And it'll probably have to be ecumenical, as BaptistTrainfan suggests. The partnerships may have to go beyond the usual Nonconformist-Anglican groupings and include newer denominations that are simply producing more and younger clergy. Some of them might be willing to work with the CofE if theological commonalities can be thrashed out.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Few parts of the country have been entirely able to escape racial diversity, although nowhere is quite like London in that respect.
Well no, but there are large swathes of middle-class middle England where a non-white face is a rarity. There are also significant white-working-class ghettoes. North Liverpool (as opposed to south) was such for a long time, although it is slowly becoming more diverse. Former pit villages in County Durham are another example. In any of these places priests from an ethnic minority will possibly encounter prejudice, though rarely from their congregations.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Well, if the people in those places never see black or brown faces they'll never get used to them, will they?? You've got to start somewhere.
Previous generations of immigrants have had to cope with prejudice and most have lived to tell the tale - and there are many tales. This is a trans-global world and people have to deal with these challenges all the time. African clergy shouldn't need special protection from prejudice when thousands of of other Africans have travelled the world and dealt with it wherever they've found it.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The partnerships may have to go beyond the usual Nonconformist-Anglican groupings ... Some of them might be willing to work with the CofE if theological commonalities can be thrashed out.
And that is where the sometimes-derided formal consultations and documents produced by the Ecumenical bodies CTE and CTBI may prove to be useful or even vital.
[ 19. February 2014, 17:31: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Blackbird Leys, incidentally, may be in Oxford, but that doesn't mean it isn't rough.
What, compared to the city centre?
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, if the people in those places never see black or brown faces they'll never get used to them, will they?? You've got to start somewhere.
Previous generations of immigrants have had to cope with prejudice and most have lived to tell the tale - and there are many tales. This is a trans-global world and people have to deal with these challenges all the time. African clergy shouldn't need special protection from prejudice when thousands of of other Africans have travelled the world and dealt with it wherever they've found it.
I'm sure you are right. But you can't be surprised if many of them don't fancy taking the risk.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Well no, but there are large swathes of middle-class middle England where a non-white face is a rarity. There are also significant white-working-class ghettoes. North Liverpool (as opposed to south) was such for a long time, although it is slowly becoming more diverse. Former pit villages in County Durham are another example. In any of these places priests from an ethnic minority will possibly encounter prejudice, though rarely from their congregations.
I live in the South and outside of the main conurbations, ethnic minorities are rare. There are few non-whites in Devon or Cornwall, there are parts of Kent which are a lot more than 99% white.
I don't know for an absolute fact (and would be interested to hear if anyone knows), but I suspect that the places where most ministers and clergy want to live are in London, the home counties and the Midlands. Outside of these, I suspect there are similar issues to those in the 'North'.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Are there any comments on my post or is the North so horrible? I have been to Cirencester, Bath and Bristol as well as our ancestral home in Bucks. Do any of those count as North or places that have grave difficulty in securing permanent bishops and vicars?
The 'North' is more than just geography - in the area North of (approximately) Birmingham, the country gets narrower and there are more large cities, many of which were built on industry.
Of the places you've mentioned here, Cirencester is a fairly attractive but small, very middle-class town which grew rich from sheep on the surrounding low hills of the Cotswolds.
Bath is a bigger city and grew as a famous royal spa town in the Regency period, and is famous for architecture, the arts, literature etc.
Bristol is the closest you have here to a 'Northern' city/town, is a fairly large city traditionally built on docks and slave trading but also with a fairly large industrial base.
Of course, looking at wikipedia would have told you all you needed to know about their geographical position and size, if not the meaning of the phrase 'the North' to an English person.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Well no, but there are large swathes of middle-class middle England where a non-white face is a rarity. There are also significant white-working-class ghettoes. North Liverpool (as opposed to south) was such for a long time, although it is slowly becoming more diverse. Former pit villages in County Durham are another example. In any of these places priests from an ethnic minority will possibly encounter prejudice, though rarely from their congregations.
I live in the South and outside of the main conurbations, ethnic minorities are rare. There are few non-whites in Devon or Cornwall, there are parts of Kent which are a lot more than 99% white.
I don't know for an absolute fact (and would be interested to hear if anyone knows), but I suspect that the places where most ministers and clergy want to live are in London, the home counties and the Midlands. Outside of these, I suspect there are similar issues to those in the 'North'.
I'm not convinced. The mental image of a country parish in the West Country is rather more appealing than the same in Northumberland. It doesn't conjour the same image of bleakness or remoteness.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
And possibly fewer lying politicians.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I started ministry in the South (because that's where my roots were and where I was ordained). We moved North (Yorkshire) for my first incumbency, for a variety of reasons. One was that I was heartily sick of the diocese I was in and especially the middle-class snobbery and presumptions. Another was that we felt really drawn to Urban Priority Area parishes and there were more available up North!
We spent almost a decade in the North, but then moved back South. Family pressures were mostly in play - we really needed to be near both sets of parents. But also there was a feeling that although we had enjoyed our time in Yorkshire, we missed our roots. Family and friend networks are really important to sustain yourself in ministry and it's hard to keep those going over a few hundred miles!
In my experience, one of the reasons why northern dioceses find it harder to attract clergy to posts is that a considerable number of ordinands are reluctant to move outside of their comfort zones. At theological college it was noticeable that there were an awful lot of people who had no interest at all in looking outside what they had come from (mostly, Home Counties middle-class suburban evangelicalism). The few of us who WERE interested in wider perspectives were frequently treated with barely disguised amusement.
I know from conversations with a variety of archdeacons across many dioceses that this is a very common experience and frustration. Whilst some people do indeed have very good reasons for not straying too far from their home turf, others who don't have such reasons can be remarkably blinkered.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm not convinced. The mental image of a country parish in the West Country is rather more appealing than the same in Northumberland. It doesn't conjour the same image of bleakness or remoteness.
Well as someone who was in a church in the west country, I can vouch for the fact that, on occasion, it could be very bleak.
It depends on which part of the west you are talking about. I happened to be in an area where average wages were the second lowest in the UK and there were multiple indices of social and economic deprivation. At the local school up to 40% of children needed some kind of extra help in the classroom. The local council was a by word for corruption and went into special measures (or the equivalent: Joke about the council - Every clock in .... has 3 hands. An hour hand, a minute hand and a backhand). Various senior figures kept leaving with large payoffs in a "reorganisation."
You're 40 miles or so away from any Bishop or similar level of authority. Your colleagues are covering up to 8 parishes with little help. The countryside may look great but cream tea land isn't all cream teas and nice landscapes.
FWIW my own denomination seemingly suffers from the same struggle to fill posts at the margins esp. run down estates. Sure we can put the Pioneers out into new territory - but that's rather sexier than picking up the pieces of poor churchmanship in deprived estates.
I trained in the SE but chose to go to the place where I believed God wanted me to be. It wasn't easy by any means, but it was worth it.
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[ 20. February 2014, 07:22: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Q1
Do the regional training routes allow more stipendiary clergy to remain embedded (through curacy and incumbencies) in the general region where they were selected and trained?
Q2
If the C/E hopes for younger ordinands, might this merely pick up folk who've been to university in that area (true), but who actually come from somewhere else?
[ 20. February 2014, 07:49: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, if the people in those places never see black or brown faces they'll never get used to them, will they?? You've got to start somewhere.
Previous generations of immigrants have had to cope with prejudice and most have lived to tell the tale - and there are many tales. This is a trans-global world and people have to deal with these challenges all the time. African clergy shouldn't need special protection from prejudice when thousands of of other Africans have travelled the world and dealt with it wherever they've found it.
No one is saying anyone should expect anything.
I just raised it as a comment, a black or Asian person coming out of seminary may have a legitimate concern about how they will be received in less ethnically diverse area, and particularly for their children in school.
And again - the Archbishop of York John Sentamu is African and spent most of his career prior to that posting in London. So it does happen.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Not sure where she's going to go next, but one of the ordinands that came from the local church (there are currently 4 from across the team in training - 3, 2 at Westcott, and a number of other ordinands getting support because they come on placement) comes from Cornwall originally, stayed with in this area for university and to be put through to ordination because her Cornish church and diocese wasn't going to. I immediately thought of her as she's the youngest - well under 30.
Current curate trained with St Mellitus (London and Chelmsford local college) and would love to stay here - children of school age in school locally, but that would be disastrous for a number of reasons.
(Charles - I suspect I know who you might mean as your minister who moved out from Essex. If so, he has quite an individual view on the world)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
And again - the Archbishop of York John Sentamu is African and spent most of his career prior to that posting in London. So it does happen.
Well that is kinda true, except that prior to joining the church he was a lawyer and then a judge, and if memory recalls, was also the Bishop of Birmingham for a while.
I don't think it invalidates your point, but I'm not sure having a previous career as a barrister or High Court judge is a normal route for most ministers, and that history must give you some practice and confidence to step out into unfamilar surroundings.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
FWIW my own denomination seemingly suffers from the same struggle to fill posts at the margins esp. run down estates. Sure we can put the Pioneers out into new territory - but that's rather sexier than picking up the pieces of poor churchmanship in deprived estates.
I trained in the SE but chose to go to the place where I believed God wanted me to be. It wasn't easy by any means, but it was worth it.
This is also an interesting point. My perception is that there are large numbers of places within urban areas where the churches are dwindling, and which must be an unattractive place to go as a minister.
Maybe the truth is that it is the middle-class 'happening' suburbs that are the most attractive places to become the minister of many/most churches.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Closely packed, historically alienated housing estates. Not sexy. Not easy. Not exactly having ordinands queuing up to plant there.
This week I spoke with one ordinand who wonders if they could move to such an area. A deacon who is obviously thriving in ministry by being in such a place. And a church planting team who have moved onto such an estate, live there and worship&serve there.
Apparently we expect folk to travel a long way to our churches....why can't we take church to where the people live?
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Apparently we expect folk to travel a long way to our churches....why can't we take church to where the people live?
I think this is partly down to sociology. People who are committed to church tend to be committed to a particular kind of church, and tend to be prepared to travel to it. As a result of these two things, that tends to be more attractive to a certain sort of person. I think the days when the majority of people walked to a church in their locality are long gone.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
People who are committed to church tend to be committed to a particular kind of church, and tend to be prepared to travel to it.
But people who are new to Christianity are not all that committed to a particular kind of church, ISTM. On the other hand (in my limited experience and from what I've read - I'm no expert!), they seem to want a church that meets locally to them and offers a warm welcome.
My church runs a debt advice centre (with Christians Against Poverty) and we've seen plenty of people become Christians through this work. Some of them have joined our church community, but others - especially those who live across town from where we meet - have joined others, of a range of different denominations.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
But people who are new to Christianity are not all that committed to a particular kind of church, ISTM. On the other hand (in my limited experience and from what I've read - I'm no expert!), they seem to want a church that meets locally to them and offers a warm welcome.
That's true and a good point. I suppose the question is then to whom the church is most attractive - which may again be the middle classes.
quote:
My church runs a debt advice centre (with Christians Against Poverty) and we've seen plenty of people become Christians through this work. Some of them have joined our church community, but others - especially those who live across town from where we meet - have joined others, of a range of different denominations.
Yeah, sadly I cannot agree that this is a good thing. Using debt councelling deliberately as a way to convert new Christians is pretty low and deceptive, in my opinion.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
We spent almost a decade in the North, but then moved back South. Family pressures were mostly in play - we really needed to be near both sets of parents. But also there was a feeling that although we had enjoyed our time in Yorkshire, we missed our roots. Family and friend networks are really important to sustain yourself in ministry and it's hard to keep those going over a few hundred miles!
I read something last week that suggested that the need to be near aged parents was one reason people were reluctant to "move north". Another point made in this article (which I cannot remember where it was, sorry) was that the London diocese is the largest source of ordinands by some way. It is, apparently, the source of twice as many ordinands as the next most prolific diocese.
Having said that, I have a friend here (leafy London suburb) who has three sons who grew up here, they are all ordained, and they served initially in Leicester, Carlisle and Chester dioceses.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Maybe the truth is that it is the middle-class 'happening' suburbs that are the most attractive places to become the minister of many/most churches.
That may be how it is seen. Within a mile of where I sit there's an estate - very deprived - with 5000 people there. What church presence do the Anglican hierarchy think they need? A very heavy high church liturgy with little social action. A priest who is seemingly indifferent about pastoral care spending most of their time at another church at the posh end of the mission community. A huge credibility gap exists.
I suppose the one thing you can say is that the CofE is actually there - no else is or has bailed.
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[ 20. February 2014, 15:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Since about 1970, theological training in the C of E has been increasingly concentrated in the south, especially Oxbridge. Only Mirfield and Cranmer Hall remain in the north, apart from the non-residential courses and the new, and evangelical dominated, St Mellitus in Liverpool. When I was trained, in Durham in the 60s, many fellow-students who came from other parts of the country chose to stay and minister in the north-east. It's much easier to envisage living and working in an area that you have some first-hand experience of, rather than respond to some nebulous sense of 'calling' with little knowledge of what that might entail.
Of course, the closure of northern colleges such as Birkenhead, St Chad's Durham (still existing but no longer training ordinands), and Lincoln and Kelham (not technically in the north but near enough) might simply reflect the shortage of northern ordinands or the reluctance of others to move. But with hindsight it does seem a shortsighted policy that was dictated by out-of-touch bishops who mostly trained at Cuddesdon or Ridley.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Don't suppose anyone knows the % of ordinands going the regional training course route and those on the residential college route?
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
I read something last week that suggested that the need to be near aged parents was one reason people were reluctant to "move north".
Is every resident of the north youthful and vigorous, then? Or is the environment for parents north of the Watford Gap so unhealthy that they shuffle off their mortal coil before age creeps in? (The alternative, of course, is that they all move south to Bexhill).
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Is every resident of the north youthful and vigorous, then? Or is the environment for parents north of the Watford Gap so unhealthy that they shuffle off their mortal coil before age creeps in? (The alternative, of course, is that they all move south to Bexhill).
It's certainly related to the point that most of the colleges ordaining clergy are in the South, so most of the new priests are from the South, and presumably their parents as well.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes, I do realise that actually. However we moved from London to East Anglia partly to be closer to my (now late) mother. I know a Vicar here who has parents in Cumbria although his moves over the years have AFAIK been within this Diocese.
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
I strongly doubt that most ordinands are being trained in the south.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
I strongly doubt that most ordinands are being trained in the south.
Maybe not (although have you seen Angloid's post?), but are the ones trained in the North staying up there? The curate in the local parish(London) was trained at Durham quite recently, so he didn't want to stay there for some reason.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm not convinced. The mental image of a country parish in the West Country is rather more appealing than the same in Northumberland. It doesn't conjour the same image of bleakness or remoteness.
Well as someone who was in a church in the west country, I can vouch for the fact that, on occasion, it could be very bleak.
I grew up in the West Country, I know well enough. But I'm talking about image, not reality, as it is that which attracts or repels those considering living and working there.
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GreyBeard
Apprentice
# 113
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Posted
I posted here a few days ago suggesting that the north, however defined, wasn't all bleak. A reply told me that where I live, Lancaster, isn't the real north but a hippy-dippy place. I've refrained from commenting further until today, since I spend some of my time in Morecambe, a typically struggling seaside town.
I have to say that I've found the discussion rather depressing for two reasons. First, because of the stereotypical views of north versus south. Having lived in both north and south, and in the north that's not just Lancaster, I do feel that some people should get out more.
Secondly, I'm rather bothered by the notion that serving God in ministry, lay or ordained, never involves sacrifice, whether in the north, south, east or west. But then I always was rather naive.
Posts: 30 | From: Lancaster, UK | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
My church runs a debt advice centre (with Christians Against Poverty) and we've seen plenty of people become Christians through this work. Some of them have joined our church community, but others - especially those who live across town from where we meet - have joined others, of a range of different denominations.
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Yeah, sadly I cannot agree that this is a good thing. Using debt councelling deliberately as a way to convert new Christians is pretty low and deceptive, in my opinion.
To be fair, I doubt that SCK's church expects the debt service users to join the church in exchange for assistance. But those service users are presumably aware that the help is being offered in a Christian environment, and a few of them might find that comforting. There will always be a 'Christian taint' on such a service, unless the church building is merely a hired venue and all the advisors and assistants come in from elsewhere. We should hold the state accountable if purely secular assistance isn't available.
I wonder whether churches in the North of England are easily able to access state funding for setting up such ventures? If local councils have run out of money themselves then it might be difficult for churches to offer the practical help that some communities need.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
To be fair, I doubt that SCK's church expects the debt service users to join the church in exchange for assistance.
Indeed. And as far as I know this made absolutely clear to all the service users right from the start.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But those service users are presumably aware that the help is being offered in a Christian environment, and a few of them might find that comforting.
I'm sure all CAP clients soon become aware that the service has an upfront Christian ethos, even if they don't figure it out from the name! Mind you, some might find that a threat (as opposed to comforting) but then there are other free debt counselling / advice services. CAP evidently feel that, on balance, it's good for them to be an explicitly Christian-based organisation, and I don't see any reason to disagree.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyBeard:
I posted here a few days ago suggesting that the north, however defined, wasn't all bleak. A reply told me that where I live, Lancaster, isn't the real north but a hippy-dippy place. I've refrained from commenting further until today, since I spend some of my time in Morecambe, a typically struggling seaside town. ...
For those that have never been there, would it help the discussion if I said that I found Morcambe one of the most depressing places I've been to in recent years, particularly when it's got such a fantastic setting and is next door to rather swish places like Hest Bank and Silverdale? It struck me as a holiday resort which with cheap flights to the Costas had had the bottom drop out of its market. The boarding houses seemed to be being used as a dumping ground by every Social Services Department in Lancashire. I don't know Essex or Kent very well, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are similar places there. Even more depressing than Ilfracombe in January.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by GreyBeard:
I posted here a few days ago suggesting that the north, however defined, wasn't all bleak. A reply told me that where I live, Lancaster, isn't the real north but a hippy-dippy place. I've refrained from commenting further until today, since I spend some of my time in Morecambe, a typically struggling seaside town. ...
For those that have never been there, would it help the discussion if I said that I found Morcambe one of the most depressing places I've been to in recent years, particularly when it's got such a fantastic setting and is next door to rather swish places like Hest Bank and Silverdale? It struck me as a holiday resort which with cheap flights to the Costas had had the bottom drop out of its market. The boarding houses seemed to be being used as a dumping ground by every Social Services Department in Lancashire. I don't know Essex or Kent very well, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are similar places there. Even more depressing than Ilfracombe in January.
I don't know about Essex but there are certainly places like that in Kent and Sussex. Even the East Sussex town I lived in is not exactly depressing - it does pretty well in terms of holidaymakers, has nice hotels - has its share of bleak boarding houses and B&Bs that are used as council/social services dumping grounds, and I know because that was my situation once.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am rather surprised at someone from Essex considering Norfolk to be the North! They are both East Anglia to me. I would tend to consider Eastern England to be a separate region to the North, South or Midlands.
Having now lived here for 8 years, I definitely agree (and so does BBC regional programming, though its definition of "east" includes Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire, which I would dispute). I think that I'd include Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and the part of Essex north and east of Chelmsford.
Correct (with the exclusion of Cambridgeshire) if you go by William the Conqueror.
I would definitely include Cambridgeshire in Eastern England. The north end in particular is proper Puritan East Anglia.
And yes, BBC Look East includes Northamptonshire and Bedfordshire which I find very odd. Beds/Bucks/Herts surely belong together in the South East/Home Counties? Northamptonshire is, admittedly, right at the edge of the East Midlands but I definitely consider it to be in the Midlands. Northants/Bedfordshire is quite a strange little area geographically-speaking anyway.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Wow! Evangelical Anglicanism must be en route to conquering the world if it has such single minded and ruthless clergy in its midst! The rest of you have no hope if that's what you're up against!
The North should make other plans, then, but in the long run perhaps it won't make much difference.
Traditionalists don't just include evangelicals (and not all evangelical Anglicans are conservative), but I would say that evangelicals would be the ones with the biggest growth. Whilst I wouldn't discount the work of the Holy Spirit in terms of prospects for the rest of us* (I don't think it's quite as bleak as you suggest!), evangelicals have tapped into a successful formula. I certainly think that Northern clergy might find more of them coming to fill the gap. I think the evangelical (especially conservative evangelical) stance on what the CoE is for is quite different to other CoE groups, and they generally have much less loyalty to Anglicanism. There is a sense that they want to claim it for their own, however. I don't know if you've ever read Christianity magazine? That is pretty illuminating.
I hope my comment didn't come across as overly harsh - it is just a very complex picture and the evolution of churchmanship (both in terms of geography and numbers) is far more nuanced than getting bums in pews or being 'fussy'.
*not suggesting that the Spirit cannot work in con-evos, rather suggesting that diversity in the CoE and not evo uniformity is the Spirit-led thing
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
The vicar of my parish church is leaving a leafy inner London suburb for the mostly black, mostly poor area on the other side of the borough. And this is a man with a double-barrelled name who uses golf as analogy in his sermons.
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Strangely enough our mostly black church has just recruited a double-barrelled vicar from a neighbouring parish which is uphill and upmarket of us...
It will be odd to have a white middle-class middle-aged clergy couple with kids. None of them have fitted that description for 20 years or so. In fact none of our regular congregation fit that description. No married couples where both are white as far as I know.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Closely packed, historically alienated housing estates. Not sexy. Not easy. Not exactly having ordinands queuing up to plant there.
You've been to South London I see.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Relevant article to this discussion.
I do note the predominance of clergy children and HTB, mind. It's not a criticism, just an observation that age seems to be the only variable here!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
The vicar of my parish church is leaving a leafy inner London suburb for the mostly black, mostly poor area on the other side of the borough. And this is a man with a double-barrelled name who uses golf as analogy in his sermons.
.
Strangely enough our mostly black church has just recruited a double-barrelled vicar from a neighbouring parish which is uphill and upmarket of us...
It will be odd to have a white middle-class middle-aged clergy couple with kids. None of them have fitted that description for 20 years or so. In fact none of our regular congregation fit that description. No married couples where both are white as far as I know.
We've chatted before - yes we're talking about the same gentleman. Very nice man.
And I'm sure you can grasp that the demographics of the church he's leaving and the one he's going to are very different. Enough that I'm unwilling to accept that poshness alone, keeps Southern clergy away from the North. I think there is an attitude of service within the CofE clergy and willingness to live in less desirable areas when required, but there are larger regional/national dynamics that might explain the North/South divide.
[ 21. February 2014, 08:14: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am rather surprised at someone from Essex considering Norfolk to be the North! They are both East Anglia to me. I would tend to consider Eastern England to be a separate region to the North, South or Midlands.
Having now lived here for 8 years, I definitely agree (and so does BBC regional programming, though its definition of "east" includes Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire, which I would dispute). I think that I'd include Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and the part of Essex north and east of Chelmsford.
Correct (with the exclusion of Cambridgeshire) if you go by William the Conqueror.
I would definitely include Cambridgeshire in Eastern England. The north end in particular is proper Puritan East Anglia.
And yes, BBC Look East includes Northamptonshire and Bedfordshire which I find very odd. Beds/Bucks/Herts surely belong together in the South East/Home Counties? Northamptonshire is, admittedly, right at the edge of the East Midlands but I definitely consider it to be in the Midlands. Northants/Bedfordshire is quite a strange little area geographically-speaking anyway.
Try living in Oxford, where we get BBC South Today. For some reason the BBC has decided that our "local" news should also take in everywhere on the south coast from Portsmouth to Bridport (ie pretty much the eastern coastal border with Devon)... For the non-UK residents, or indeed those UK residents who are served by something logical like Midlands Today, just look at a map!
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Relevant article to this discussion.
I do note the predominance of clergy children and HTB, mind. It's not a criticism, just an observation that age seems to be the only variable here!
St Mellitus is I believe affiliated with HTB - not sure if officially or not. A lot of the lecturers are vicars from their family of churches. And the press loves writing about HTB because it's the perfect combination of religion and poshness that gets the articles clicks and comments from left-wing atheists.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Blackbird Leys, incidentally, may be in Oxford, but that doesn't mean it isn't rough.
What, compared to the city centre?
Well, clearly compared to the city centre. But, also, apparently surprisingly to those who think Oxford's all dreaming spires, compared to the UK.
http://www.uklocalarea.com/stats/q/Blackbird+Leys/wc/38UCFU/l/E01028517
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbird_Leys
sorry it's wiki, but it's a start. Some choice facts about Blackbird Leys:
- it's one of the largest social housing estates in the EU
-it's in the 10% most deprived areas in England according to that article (and, according to something I've read but can't find, it's actually much closer to being in the 1%)
- it was where joyriding was invented
- bottom 30% English income deprivation
- bottom 10% English education
- bottom 10% barriers to services
- bottom 20% crime
However, given the proximity to a UNESCO world heritage site, I'm sure it's a huge consolation to the residents that in terms of environment it's better than 90% of England according to the first link!
None of this is to attack BL by the way - I go there pretty much every week and there is a very strong sense of community and some wonderful people. But Oxford's not all high tables, and to the surprise of many tourists who never get outside the centre, it actually contains some of the country's most challenging and deprived areas.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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