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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sherlock - triumphant return or disappointment?
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Is the series turning into "The Holmes and Watson Show"? Light hearted banter between two funny men, in the style of Morecombe and Wise? Tonight will tell, but that's the feeling I'm getting about this season.

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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068

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I noticed that this evening's ep is written by Steven Moffat - I hope it'll be alright.... [Ultra confused]

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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Looking good so far, I'd say. [Smile]

ETA: And there's a Q&A with Messrs Moffat and Gatiss live here, from 10.00 to 10.30pm GMT, just after the ep. They warn of spoilers, though.

[ 12. January 2014, 20:18: Message edited by: Wesley J ]

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Smudgie

Ship's Barnacle
# 2716

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Can't get into it at all. And fed up that Sherlock, like Doctor Who, has got all "soap opera-ey". Maybe a second watching will help.

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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You're right. The series is like Jesus: we're hoping for the second coming, to clarify stuff. Thus I'll have to watch again, too.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Sparrow
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# 2458

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Bwaaaahaaahaaahaaaaah!

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Well I enjoyed that - still not very puzzley though.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Looked at the wiki on the original story, which I vaguely remembered, and have to say it wasn't that puzzley either !

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Penny S
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# 14768

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So they never checked, with him being on the top of Molly's building and all, that he was actually dead? (I had written off the obvious lack of pink blobby bits and skull fragments as being tasteful.) It does rule out the using his body for Sherlock, doesn't it? Maybe they'll deign to let us know the whole truth about that episode next time, when the third episode of the Hobbit has been done. (Apropos of which, I'm expecting three full length episodes of "Farmer Giles of Ham" from that stable.)
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Just because someone broadcasts a film of Moriarty doesn't mean he is alive.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Lucia

Looking for light
# 15201

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I found that much more gripping to watch than the first two episodes in this series! So Mary has a 'past'. I had wondered why the word liar appeared in the words around her of Sherlock's observations in the first episode.
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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Looked at the wiki on the original story, which I vaguely remembered, and have to say it wasn't that puzzley either !

It was based on two separate stories, with bits of others thrown in. Add to that the complete re-writing of Mary Watson and it's hardly surprising it was complicated. But I liked it.

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Jay-Emm
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# 11411

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
(Apropos of which, I'm expecting three full length episodes of "Farmer Giles of Ham" from that stable.)

What!!!! You need that just for the fight with the giant.

Enjoyed Sherlock tonight. Half predicted the curious incident twist mid-episode, whereas at the earlier twist-point had just remembered the blackmail story plot and didn't look at the time.

I also kind of enjoyed last weeks if it'd been the filler between two 'normal'* episodes, and the first on a similar basis except for the fact they had made promises.

Am finding the use of both flashbacks and mental images and thought experiments confusing.

*yes I know there aren't really enough episodes for a normal to be defined.

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Pine Marten
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# 11068

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Well, I really enjoyed that - much more than the wedding last week, though I agree that the flashbacks/mental images etc. are quite confusing. Still, it means you can watch it again...and again... [Smile]

Anyone see the programme on BBC4 straight afterwards chronicling Holmes on stage and screen?

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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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I remember the Douglas Wilmer. The best pre-Cumberbatch realisation IMO.

Not entirely sure about tonight's - all this cutting out to scenes (such as childhood) outwith The Canon weakens it I think.

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Pia
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# 17277

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Just because someone broadcasts a film of Moriarty doesn't mean he is alive.

Glad it wasn't just me thinking that, Doublethink! The surest way of getting that plane turned around and Sherlock back in Blighty would be to use Moriarty as bait... (Not that I know why someone might want Sherlock back, but presumably that's what we find out in the next series...)
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Enjoyed it a lot, and the later programme on Holmes films and plays showed how Gatiss/Moffat are using elements from them at times; for example, 'I'm not gay', seems to be taken from one film which suggested that.

Something delirious about it, which I love. Before that, I was besotted with Jeremy Brett's version, which is highly mannered.

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Roseofsharon
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# 9657

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

Not entirely sure about tonight's - all this cutting out to scenes (such as childhood) outwith The Canon weakens it I think.

Is there a "Canon"?
Conan Doyle didn't go much on either chronology nor continuity in his `Sherlock Holmes stories, so I don't see that any adding, subtracting or switching elements from one episode to another as much of a crime in the current re-imagining.
It's not as if they are supposed to be actual Holmes adventures as originally written.

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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Is it Moriarty's brother who is called James or his brother? It all depends on which story you are reading. Conan Doyle did not have a canon, each story was complete in itself.

What I do like about Sherlock is that Greg Lestrade is a composite character of two of the policemen in the original, Lestrade (whose first name is never mentioned) and Gregson.

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Ariel
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# 58

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Well, that was entertaining, if surreal. I did wonder for a while whether this was going to turn out to be Sherlock's dream. An overlong episode but an interesting one.

The bit I didn't care much for was Mary turning out to be someone with a Hidden Past. It would have been nicer if they'd kept her as a normal character; now there are three strong main characters plus Mycroft plus Moriarty when he comes back, which is a bit too much really.

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Sparrow
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# 2458

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I enjoyed seeing Sherlock's parents again, and him and Mycroft at home for Christmas!

[Yipee] [Yipee]

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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Sarasa
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# 12271

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I enjoyed it much more than last weeks, even thoiugh there seemed to be some rather large holes in the plot. I was hoping that Smallwood was going to turn up at the last moment to wreak revenge on Magnusson in the same way the character Kitty does on the original story its based on.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I liked the explanation of Mary's past, as in the likelihood of her being a dangerous person - you chose her John ...

I had thought she might turn out to be a catspaw for Mycroft, so relieved she wasn't.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
What I do like about Sherlock is that Greg Lestrade is a composite character of two of the policemen in the original, Lestrade (whose first name is never mentioned) and Gregson.

As posted by me:

What I do like about Sherlock is that Greg Lestrade. He doesn't appear often enough.

(I was going to say, give him a bigger part, but I realize that could be open to misinterpretation.)

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Apropos of which, I'm expecting three full length episodes of "Farmer Giles of Ham" from that stable.

And at least that for "Tree and Leaf"

Actually, I enjoyed this episode. It was odd, confusing, with a proper puzzle. But it was also well done, well devised I think.

The reappearance of Moriarty was interesting, at least as a teaser for next time - he will clearly be involved again, even if it is post-mortem.

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Jane R
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# 331

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quote:
Am finding the use of both flashbacks and mental images and thought experiments confusing.
I found it irritating; it seemed like Moffat was being clever for the sake of it. (Look, here's another flashback - isn't it shiny? This might have happened - but then again, it might not. Here's Moriarty - now you see him, now you don't!)

SPOILER:


I couldn't help wondering - if Magnusson was so clever, why didn't he take the gun off Watson when they arrived? Did he really not consider the fact that he was painting them into a corner where the only solution to their problem was to kill him?

[ 14. January 2014, 11:08: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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Jay-Emm
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# 11411

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quote:
Replying to above posted by Jane R (which in turn quotes me):

The one that got me was the hospital canteen scene, after a moment of confusion I came to the 'realisation' it was Sherlock vision for Magnus at the Holmes (akin to the trial last week). Then I thought it was a metaphor for an internet conversation. Finally I realised it was a flashback. I think that's where I'll stop.
I didn't mind the one (and in fact given I liked the show and would only swap it for Dirk-Gentley, I clearly didn't mind them all) but at the same time to have all the different types with no cues felt ugly.

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Ariel
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# 58

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I was pretty much convinced at one point that the whole thing was going to turn out to be Sherlock off his trolley and in a drug-induced hallucination, what with all the surreal stuff with Magnusson and the flashbacks. That was probably intentional on the part of the scriptwriters, though.
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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Am I the only one that just found it tedious, then?

M.

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Ronald Binge
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# 9002

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I loved it, but of course as a long standing Whovian I totally get Steven Moffat's tropes.

Mary Watson and River Song come from the same place, kick-ass heroines with a dodgy past. I frankly love them as characters and both Amanda Abbington and Alex Kingston have done a brilliant job bringing them to life.

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Smudgie

Ship's Barnacle
# 2716

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M, I'm with you.

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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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Thanks, Smudgie! Ronald Binge, I'm a long term Whovian as well (since November 1963), so I don't think it's that.

I thought Magnusson was a hugely creepy villain. But I got very bored during all the bits when Sherlock was shot - that just went on for ever, in lieu of plot, I think. The ending was a cop out. I don't think the whole Mary thing worked (it's all right, dear, I don't mind that you're a serial killer). A shame, I liked the character before then. Same with Mrs Hudson, just unnecessary and silly.

I don't like Mycroft getting sentimental - why suddenly all this stuff about relationships? Can't we just have a good plot-driven mystery?

M.

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Mr Clingford
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# 7961

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This was my least favourite of the recent 3. It wasn't as engaging. I was happy with Mrs Watson, though, and the villain was good. I was surprised that the solution was Holmes just shooting him.

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If only.

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Nenya
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# 16427

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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I don't think the whole Mary thing worked (it's all right, dear, I don't mind that you're a serial killer).

It wasn't as simple as that, though, was it? There was the whole thing that Sherlock pointed out to Watson about the way he - Watson - was attracted to psychopaths as companions so he arguably had a certain level of responsibility for and in the situation.

I think the way Martin Freeman plays Watson is remarkable, all that complex emotion. Give that hobbit an Oscar, someone.
[Overused]

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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I don't like Mycroft getting sentimental - why suddenly all this stuff about relationships? Can't we just have a good plot-driven mystery?

It'd be nice but it is written by the people who did Doctor Who...

(You can just see it now, can't you - Sherlock Holmes meets the Daleks, Mycroft meets Captain Jack, and John dumps Mary for River Song...)

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38

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Talking of SF tropes, am I the only one who thought of Max Headroom when the Moriarty images appeared?

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
... Mycroft meets Captain Jack ...

In Mycroft's dreams!

I really liked this week's episode. I thought it was remarkably faithful to The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton, which was refreshing. It's a strange story, showing Holmes's strong moral sense as being sometimes opposed to the letter of the law - a theme that was very obviously carried over into Sherlock.

The shock ending had me bouncing on the sofa - I'd really expected Sherlock to be sent off on that dangerous mission, leaving it open as to whether there'd be another series or now.

(And no, Honest Ron, you weren't the only one to think of Max Headroom. It must be something about tv addicts of a Certain Age ... [Biased] )

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Jammy Dodger

Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872

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quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
There was the whole thing that Sherlock pointed out to Watson about the way he - Watson - was attracted to psychopaths as companions so he arguably had a certain level of responsibility for and in the situation.

Not psychopaths - "high functioning sociopaths" [Biased]

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Nenya
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# 16427

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quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
There was the whole thing that Sherlock pointed out to Watson about the way he - Watson - was attracted to psychopaths as companions so he arguably had a certain level of responsibility for and in the situation.

Not psychopaths - "high functioning sociopaths" [Biased]
You're right! [Smile] Thank you!

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The Rogue
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# 2275

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I wonder how Sherlock would get on against HMR&C if he fails to file his tax return.

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Lucia

Looking for light
# 15201

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quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
There was the whole thing that Sherlock pointed out to Watson about the way he - Watson - was attracted to psychopaths as companions so he arguably had a certain level of responsibility for and in the situation.

Not psychopaths - "high functioning sociopaths" [Biased]
Or maybe not... Perhaps on this point the mighty deduction of Sherlock Holmes is somewhat astray according to this psychologist! [Big Grin]
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Jammy Dodger

Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872

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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
There was the whole thing that Sherlock pointed out to Watson about the way he - Watson - was attracted to psychopaths as companions so he arguably had a certain level of responsibility for and in the situation.

Not psychopaths - "high functioning sociopaths" [Biased]
Or maybe not... Perhaps on this point the mighty deduction of Sherlock Holmes is somewhat astray according to this psychologist! [Big Grin]

I can't comment on the technical accuracy of the terminology. All I will say is that one of my favourite lines in the wedding episode was Benedict Cumberbatch delivering this line to one of the guests who called him a psychopath:
"No a high functioning sociopath - who knows your address" followed by a deliciously disconcerting smile....

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Paul.
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# 37

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Just finished watching it (not sure why I waited a week, I just did). Quite fun, quite silly, clever in places. Even I was poking at the massive plot holes.

Was it just me or does "The East Wind" sound a lot like "The Oncoming Storm"?

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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Is anybody else watching the Bridge? (Scandinavian/ Danish, BBC4)
Does anybody else want to see a Sherlock / Saga Noren crossover?

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Penny S
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I've seen the east wind mentioned recently in a more original context. Probably in the history of representations of Holmes programme, and thus deliberately picked out. I can't remember quite how far back it appeared, whether it was pre-WWI and thus Riddle in the Sands stuff, pre-WWII or a reference to the oncoming Cold War. It's definitely pre-Gatiss.
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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I've seen the east wind mentioned recently in a more original context. Probably in the history of representations of Holmes programme, and thus deliberately picked out. I can't remember quite how far back it appeared, whether it was pre-WWI and thus Riddle in the Sands stuff, pre-WWII or a reference to the oncoming Cold War. It's definitely pre-Gatiss.

The reference is to the Conan Doyle story His Last Bow, which was published in 1917 but refers back to the summer of 1914, just before the First World War. Holmes has come out of retirement and with Watson is tracking down German spies. The story concludes with a patroitic speech from Holmes that begins "There's an east wind coming, Watson..." The speech was repeated in the movie The Voice of Terror, transposed to World War Two.

His Last Vow changed the context of course - here it's Sherlock who's the east wind. And in that respect linking it to the Oncoming Storm is irresistible.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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