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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Republic of Ireland and "Eire"
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
This is far too trivial a subject to be Purgatorised but it is a minor annoyance for this particular Irishman.
A surprising number of our brethern across the water in The Other Island believe that the name of the Republic of Ireland is either "Eire" (pronounced by them as "Air") or "Southern Ireland" (on the presumed basis that Northern Ireland needs an opposite. It is admitted that Irish stamps and coins have "Éire" (note the accent on the E, pronounced 'Air-uh').
However, like "Deutschland" on German stamps, or "Suomi" on Finnish stamps, the correct word in English to describe Ireland, is funny enough, Ireland. "Éire" is the word for the whole of Ireland in the Irish language. Not in English.
A point has been raised that some posters may wish to distinguish the state, known internationally as Ireland, from the part of the island of Ireland in the United Kingdom, known as Northern Ireland. Fortunately there is a convenient solution.
The Republic of Ireland, or colloquially, "The Republic" is the description that we, the Irish people, use to describe the Irish state. Would Scottish, Welsh or Ulster British citizens be pleased if their country of citizenship was described as "England"? The Queen as "The Queen of England"?
"Eire" always jars on the ears of Irish people hearing it. It is as if the speaker does not want to concede the name of Ireland for some petty bigoted reason. That may not be the intention but that is how it comes across - mainly because those who insisted on calling the Republic "Eire" were usually Mail or Telegraph readers, or old-style Ulster Unionists who wanted to reinforce negative stereotypes, forgetting (or perhaps not) that we watched British television and read British newspapers in addition to our own.
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
Wasn't Eire the name used for the Irish Free State in the years from 1921 to the foundation of the Republic?
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Wasn't Eire the name used for the Irish Free State in the years from 1921 to the foundation of the Republic?
No. The 1921-1937 state was the Irish Free State in English and Saorstat Éireann in Irish. The English version was a literal translation of the Irish.
The 1937 Constitution, which wasn't yet the declaration of the Republic, merely the reduction of the role of the Crown to that of an "organ of the State" - ask me again about that, its suitably convoluted - declares that the name of the State is Éire, or in the English language, Ireland.
It was the British authorities at the time who would not concede the name of "Ireland" for the State, but used "Éire" as short hand for it.
In 1949, the Republic of Ireland Act came into effect, removing the Crown's last residual power to receive ambassadors on behalf of the Irish Government. Among its clauses was the statement that "the description of the State is the Republic of Ireland".
For those reasons, using "Republic of Ireland" as the description of the State in five-sixths of the island of Ireland is entirely correct.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
Interesting. I have always referred to the Irish Republic or must the Republic.
What was the 1937 Constitution about?
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
Essentially, accepting or rejecting the 1921 settlement and the related 1922 Constitution of the Irish Free State became firstly a Civil War issue and then a party political one. The two main parties of present day Ireland have their roots in that division. The 1922 Constitution was radical for a Dominion in that authority came from the People and not the Crown, though the King was the constitutional monarch and therefore part of the Oireachtas (Parliament). The right of the executive to appoint the Governor General was asserted by 1927, and the Free State was instrumental in the passing of the Statute of Westminster in 1931, which guaranteed the independence of the Dominions. The Crown moved from being the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland to 1927 with the King as King of Ireland (as a whole) thereafter.
This gradualist approach, working with British constitutional theory was taken by the Cumann na Gaedheal Government but was eschewed by De Valera after his Fianna Fáil Government took over in 1932. De Valera appointed an anonymous former TD (MP), Donal Buckley, as Governor-General, changed his title to the Gaelicized "Seanascal" and instructed Buckley to have no public life at all.
De Valera then abolished the Seanad (Senate), which after one abortive election in 1925 reverted to being elected by the members of Dáil Éireann (House of Representatives). Finally during the abdication crisis De Valera abolished the post of Seanascal and arranged for the Ceann Comhairle (Speaker) of the Dail to sign acts into law. Dev himself took on the role of liaising with the British Representative to Ireland.
It was at this point, in 1937, that Dev instigated the 1937 Constitution. This is still the constitution in operation but in lots of ways it was the classic Dev gambit of window dressing to mask the reality. The Crown isn't mentioned, though the Irish State remained a Dominion. Dev's figleaf was an oblique article that authorised the Irish State to appoint an "organ" to represent it in international dealings. Under the 1936 External Relations Act, King George VI of Ireland and Great Britain was that organ. The Seanad was restored under a convoluted and still limited franchise of politicians and a few seats for University Graduates. The Irish State was declared a "sovereign, independent and democratic state", and laid claim to the whole island as it's territory, while parking it's claim indefinitely under the formula "Pending the reintegration of the National Territory, laws will have the same extra territorial effect as that of Saorstat Eireann"- the infamous Articles two and Three that were repealed in 1998.
Then came the War. The Irish State was officially neutral- due to Dev being careful not to antagonise diehards in both the IRA and his own party. To Churchill's anger, who from his perspective the whole of Ireland was still a realm under the Crown, Dev and Co "were at war but skulking". However, as the war went on, the Irish "kicked with one foot for the Allies" and thousands of Irishmen volunteered for the British forces.
After the war, and a change of government, the Inter Party government cleared up the anamoly of the External Relations Act by abolishing it and declaring the Republic of Ireland in 1949. Britain passed the Ireland Act, recognising this, but with the rider that while the Republic was no longer "part of His Majesty's Dominions", no part of Ireland or its people were deemed "foreign".
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
The problem is that there is a recent tendency in English to use people's own name for themselves as a mark of politeness. So a British person saying "Eire" - always disyllabic in my experience - is probably trying to be extra specially respectful. That may not have been true sixty years ago, but it is now. And its the Guardian readers who might use it, not the Mail readers. Though I think it has become very rare these days.
Same spat happened over the name of the language we once cslled "Persian" and now usually call "Farsi". Some Persian (or Farsi) scholars take offence at the change.
Oh, and someone on the other thread said they thought "Free Stater" was what Ulster people called those from the Republic. I would advise them to keep their mouths shut if ever they find themselves amongst Irish people having a political argument in a bar. As far as I remember I have only ever heard the phrase "dirty free stater" used twice in anger. And that's no what it meant at all.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I'm a Scot who lived in Northern Ireland for 15 years and most people I knew would refer to it as either the Irish Republic or, in colloquial conversation, "Down South". I don't really recall anyone referring to it as "Eire", although I can see why right-on Grauniad readers would think it was PC.
"Eire" comes in handy in crossword puzzles ... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Until I went to study in Dublin in the 1970s, I was given to understand by several people, and more than one university staffer, that Eire was the preferred use by educated people who were respectful of Irish independence. Shortly after arriving in Ireland, I was politely disabused of this notion and coached on the various terms of The Twenty-Six Counties, The Six Counties, Northern Ireland, Ulster, the Republic, the Free State, and so forth. Locally, the Republic of Ireland or the Irish Republic was used, and sometimes one heard of the Government of Ireland.
Trinity (where I studied) and the churches paid little heed to the division of the island aside from having two sets of education committees -- the Church of Ireland (the Anglicans)'s bidding prayers had the RI and NI with different clauses.
Ronald Binge's résumé of Irish constitutional history is largely correct-- my own theory about the 1937 constitution is that de Valera never accepted the 1922 document, and was determined to bring in his own model, one which he believed reached back to the 1919 First Dail. One of the lovely minor aspects of his efforts is that Edward VIII was king for a day longer in Ireland than anywhere else, as Dev had not immediately realized that inaction (no Irish abdication measure) meant that Edward stayed on. Legal and historian friends of mine enjoyed speculating that Queen Wallis would have been too much for him.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I have heard Eire pronounced Air. But that was in a Northern Irish accent from someone who prided themselves as being from Ulster. He was not one for political compromise.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The problem is that there is a recent tendency in English to use people's own name for themselves as a mark of politeness.
Except again, it all depends. For cities in Europe, it is usual to use the English name. It would be odd, for example, to talk about your recent trip to Muenchen on your return from Munich.
By contrast, you are expected to refer to Chennai and Mumbai rather than Madras and Bombay.
So which standard does one apply to the Irish - the one for Europeans, or the one for past Imperial possessions?
The real answer, surely, is that the Indians ask you not to use the colonial-era names for their cities, and the Irish apparently prefer you not to call their country "Éire," unless you happen to be speaking Irish.
(The comparison with the UK being called "England" is not exact - referring to the Republic as "Ireland" is in some sense analogous to referring to England as "Britain" or "the UK". And yes, I agree that the country in question declares that its name is "Ireland". It is also the case that the entity commonly called "Taiwan" officially calls itself the "Republic of China".)
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I don't mind if you refer to The Queen of England - since the English executed the last true Prince of Wales we've been ruled by English monarchs.
And don't try that old canard about the Prince of Wales: yes, the English monarch's oldest son is given that title but, as any Welsh person will tell you, the proper title of Prince of Wales was given to one of the princes by proclamation of the other princes in Wales.
As for the 26 counties of Munster, Leinster and Connacht (plus Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal from Ulster) I use Ireland.
However, speaking about Dev being neutral in WWII is a bit rich: look no further than his visit to the German embassy to give his condolences on the death of Adolph Hitler for an indication of where his sympathies lay. Yes, thousands of Irishmen fought and died on the allied side but Dev's own sympathies were not pro-Allied at all.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The problem is that there is a recent tendency in English to use people's own name for themselves as a mark of politeness. So a British person saying "Eire" - always disyllabic in my experience - is probably trying to be extra specially respectful. That may not have been true sixty years ago, but it is now. And its the Guardian readers who might use it, not the Mail readers. Though I think it has become very rare these days.
Same spat happened over the name of the language we once cslled "Persian" and now usually call "Farsi". Some Persian (or Farsi) scholars take offence at the change.
Oh, and someone on the other thread said they thought "Free Stater" was what Ulster people called those from the Republic. I would advise them to keep their mouths shut if ever they find themselves amongst Irish people having a political argument in a bar. As far as I remember I have only ever heard the phrase "dirty free stater" used twice in anger. And that's no what it meant at all.
Ah yes, the deep waters of what people from Northern Ireland use as descriptives.
James Molyneaux, when leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, was wont to speak of "The People of Northern Ireland" in such a context that it excluded those of a Nationalist persuasion. Thankfully this sort of thing has stopped (except for the "Fleg" protestors - deserving of a thread of their own).
Nationalists for years would never speak of Northern Ireland and would use descriptions like "the North of Ireland", conniving in their own exclusion. This appeared to be RTE's house style for years. Since the Good Friday Agreement this tendency thankfully appears to have abated.
In the same way that denying names as a tactic to deny legitimacy has been used, some in the North (and in my own Donegal, which is in many ways a case of its own and deserves another thread) would use "Free State" as a description of the Republic. This was because the speaker did not believe that the ROI was the Irish Republic of 1916 - and used the Dominion name as an insult. The alphabet soup of dissident "Republicanism" has all sorts of definitions of what "The Republic" is and actual democracy has little to do with it.
Finally, the Republic has been referred in a peculiar friendly/derogatory way by some unionists as "Mexico", as in the song "South of the border, down Mexico way" - which was written by a man from Northern Ireland. The satirist Newton Emerson has re popularised that one.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I don't mind if you refer to The Queen of England - since the English executed the last true Prince of Wales we've been ruled by English monarchs.
And don't try that old canard about the Prince of Wales: yes, the English monarch's oldest son is given that title but, as any Welsh person will tell you, the proper title of Prince of Wales was given to one of the princes by proclamation of the other princes in Wales.
As for the 26 counties of Munster, Leinster and Connacht (plus Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal from Ulster) I use Ireland.
However, speaking about Dev being neutral in WWII is a bit rich: look no further than his visit to the German embassy to give his condolences on the death of Adolph Hitler for an indication of where his sympathies lay. Yes, thousands of Irishmen fought and died on the allied side but Dev's own sympathies were not pro-Allied at all.
I'm no fan of De Valera, but no hindrance was placed on Irishmen joining up, flying zones for Allied planes from Northern Ireland bases were agreed and Allied combatants were released while Germans were interred for the duration of the War. Weather forecasts and intelligence were passed to the Allies, especially before D Day, and he executed and interned numerous IRA men who wrongly thought Dev would turn a blind eye to their activities.
One perceptive analysis of De Valera in recent years was that he had Asperger's Syndrome. IMHO his actions bear that out.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Cote D'Ivoire is an example of a country that explicitly decided that it's name in English was to be Cote D'Ivoire, and not Ivory Coast.
Interesting that the Wikipedia article is still for 'Ivory Coast', even though it notes the official position.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Cote D'Ivoire is an example of a country that explicitly decided that it's name in English was to be Cote D'Ivoire, and not Ivory Coast.
Interesting that the Wikipedia article is still for 'Ivory Coast', even though it notes the official position.
Interesting one, but I didn't know we were as remote as that ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
I've always referred to the Republic, so I was surprised to visit Northern Ireland a few years ago where just about everybody referred to the republic as "Southern Irelan"
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
A question for the Ireland historians (thanks for interesting information so far).
When partition took place, why were 3 counties of Ulster excluded from "Northern Ireland" when the other six were included?
Also, why were the counties of Tyrone, Fermanagh and Londonderry included when they were overwhelmingly Irish nationalist?
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
A question for the Ireland historians (thanks for interesting information so far).
When partition took place, why were 3 counties of Ulster excluded from "Northern Ireland" when the other six were included?
Also, why were the counties of Tyrone, Fermanagh and Londonderry included when they were overwhelmingly Irish nationalist?
There was a lot of debate and discussion between 1914 and 1920, when Northern Ireland was formed. Including Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan would have tipped the Nationalist/Unionist split to 50:50. Tyrone, Fermanagh and Londonderry had a closer balance of population than now, with slight unionist majorities in Fermanagh and Derry and slight nationalist majority in Tyrone. Ultimately NI as is was the largest area with a then two thirds unionist majority. It is now closer to 50:50.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
The end of an 'Air-uh'?
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
OK... as it says in the OP, this isn't a Purgatorial topic. However, it's clearly not a Heavenly one either and doesn't fit into the remit of this board. I am therefore closing the thread; if anyone wishes to start a Purgatory topic on some of the points raised herein, please do.
Thanks
Ariel
Heaven Host
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