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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: You are a self-righteous hypocrite, pisstakebare
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Impossible without personal sacrifice, in my view, Boogie. Whilst one might be able to be rich and Christian, I don't think one can continue being rich and Christian.
Hence, the majority of us are not actually Christian. Scary, eh?
Scary? Only in the sense that it's a perfect explanation of why Christianity declines the richer a society gets. If you tell people there's a straight choice between being rich or being Christian they will choose to be rich. And who can blame them?
Wrong. I am reading the quite excellent work God is Back by Mickletwait and Wooldridge, two columnists who work for The Economist (In fact I started a thread in Purg about the book that kind of died in the arse). It is clear that Christianity has proven itself at least as adaptable to economic conditions as capitalism. The US is of course a good example - a rich modern country that is very religious, and most of that religion is some form of Christianity.
Increasingly, it seems China is looking at American history and perceiving (rightly or wrongly, and for better or worse) a correlation between Christian piety and wealth. As I live in Australia, a nation that has been mostly secular from its colonisation, it is easy for me to dismiss American piety as a strange exception, and I suppose many Europeans do too. However, it is becoming clearer that it is Europe (and Australia) that is the exception.
Now, if you want to say there is an inverse correlation between the efficacy of a country's welfare state and attendance at churches, you might be on to something. It seems the better your welfare state is, the less likely you are to need assistance from churches, who provide shitloads of social assistance to the poor. The US, AFAIK, has a pretty crappy welfare state, and the churches pitch in pretty hard. In Scandinavia and Finland, the nations of which have one of the most efficacious welfare states imaginable, that particular social function of the churches is negligible, and church attendance is in decline.
pydseybare seems to be preaching the gospel according to Marx, more than anything else.
[ 02. January 2014, 07:55: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
In mine, there are two types of gospels: one for the rich and another for the poor.
It is up to the reader - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - to decide which gospel is for them.
What a pile of crap. Where on earth do you drag this idea up from? In what way are you claiming that this is "Christianity?"
Just because you believe something, doesn't make is valid. Especially if you pull it out of your constipated arse.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
It seems to me that we live in a world of extremes. Somewhere in the middle is a lifestyle that all people should be able to live at - which, I believe, is above the bare subsistence level, but far below the level most Western Christians live at.
Would this "ideal level" bear a remarkable similarity to your personal lifestyle, by any chance?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Scary? Only in the sense that it's a perfect explanation of why Christianity declines the richer a society gets. If you tell people there's a straight choice between being rich or being Christian they will choose to be rich. And who can blame them?
Wrong. I am reading the quite excellent work God is Back by Mickletwait and Wooldridge, two columnists who work for The Economist (In fact I started a thread in Purg about the book that kind of died in the arse). It is clear that Christianity has proven itself at least as adaptable to economic conditions as capitalism.
Well sure, the parts of Christianity that have got rid of the straight choice between Christ and Wealth - the Prosperity Gospellers and their ilk - are still doing alright. And there are always plenty of people who are willing to offer explanations of how "the eye of a needle" was a gate in Jerusalem and so forth.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Well, well. I go away for a couple of days (using my own car, no less) and come back to discover that doing a job I love disqualifies me from being Christian, because it comes with a 6 figure salary.
Up until now I'd been told the reason I was disqualified from being a Christian was because I liked dick.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
So now you are doubly damned, Orfeo. The conservatives wouldn't at all mind your six-figure salary (think of the tithe ... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ) but would certainly reject your sexual orientation.
The more liberal or 'radical' types wouldn't be bothered in the least what you do with your dangly bits and orifices but are apparently outraged at the salary you earn.
So you've got the worst of both worlds, it seems.
But then, the rest of us would be dismissed from Pydseybias's schema for one reason or other. Some people like going to church services so he thinks they're wrong. Some people feel that they 'get something' from going to church or belonging to a religious group of some kind - and they're evidently all wrong too according to Prydefulbore.
In fact, the only real Christian in the whole dang world according to Prycelessboor is Prykefacebleargh himself ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Well, well. I go away for a couple of days (using my own car, no less) and come back to discover that doing a job I love disqualifies me from being Christian, because it comes with a 6 figure salary.
Up until now I'd been told the reason I was disqualified from being a Christian was because I liked dick.
What about Tom and Harry?
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh Pyx_e, my aching sides.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
It seems to me that we live in a world of extremes. Somewhere in the middle is a lifestyle that all people should be able to live at - which, I believe, is above the bare subsistence level, but far below the level most Western Christians live at.
Would this "ideal level" bear a remarkable similarity to your personal lifestyle, by any chance?
It doesn't happen very often, but two or three times a year I wish we had a "like" button. I didn't expect the first time quite so soon in 2014, though.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Well there is theory and there is practice. In theory, if the wealth of the world were shared equally so that no-one had more than enough until all first had enough (and if the Kingdom had come in every other respect too) then the Man going from Jerusalem to Jericho would never have been attacked to start with, and the Good Samaritan wouldn't have had to be good.
But supposing the Samaritan has sold all he has and given it to the poor, but the bandits still don't think they have enough? They still rob and beat The Man, but The Samaritan, no matter how good, is unable to help: he doesn't have a donkey to bear the victim to safety and he doesn't have any surplus cash to pay for him to rest and recuperate.
Perhaps the Inn-keeper has also given everything to the poor (well, except the inn), and doesn't expect to be paid for the room? In that case though, if he isn't even charging to cover costs of maintaining the inn, providing food and water, then it probably isn't a very sanitary place to stay, and I don't fancy the Man's chances.
The Man only survives in one of two scenarios: a perfect world (the Kingdom, in which he is never attacked) and a world which is sufficiently imperfect for some to have spare resource to give to him in his need.
So how do we get from imperfect (but generous) world to the kingdom? Can we do it in this life? What would it be like to live in a world in which the Good Samaritan doesn't have to be "good" because we have achieved material equality, but we have not yet been transformed and perfected?
And would achieving material equality make everyone "good" (though no-one would *have* to be) - or would the bandits beat the Man anyway, because That's What They Do?
(Happy new year ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Make of it whatever you like. I don't think one can continue to be rich and Christian.
What I make of it is that you've never really read Luke's gospel.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
What would it be like to live in a world in which the Good Samaritan doesn't have to be "good" because we have achieved material equality, but we have not yet been transformed and perfected?
It would be either of two things - utterly horrible, or incredibly short-lived.
The first would be if material equality was enforced, because in such a world there's no economic incentive to do anything (such as, say, operating sewage plants or power stations). Society would go to hell in days, either through nothing getting done or through the powers that be forcing the rest of us to work for nothing (i.e. slavery).
The second would be if material equality was not enforced, because even if it started out that way certain individuals (those who can charge more for what they have to offer than they need to spend on what they want) would inevitably be able to accumulate more for themselves through trade than others, and thus the rich/poor divide would rapidly reassert itself.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Make of it whatever you like. I don't think one can continue to be rich and Christian.
What I make of it is that you've never really read Luke's gospel.
Oh he's read Luke, and the rest, but he doesn't comprehend them. The key to pydseybare is the phrase "I don't think", because the evidence is that he doesn't do that. Either he's been brainwashed (a pretty quick job IMO) or he simply reacts like a well-trained gundog. Either way, he doesn't apply any intellect to the material he reads.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
What would it be like to live in a world in which the Good Samaritan doesn't have to be "good" because we have achieved material equality, but we have not yet been transformed and perfected?
It would be either of two things - utterly horrible, or incredibly short-lived.
The first would be if material equality was enforced, because in such a world there's no economic incentive to do anything (such as, say, operating sewage plants or power stations). Society would go to hell in days, either through nothing getting done or through the powers that be forcing the rest of us to work for nothing (i.e. slavery).
The second would be if material equality was not enforced, because even if it started out that way certain individuals (those who can charge more for what they have to offer than they need to spend on what they want) would inevitably be able to accumulate more for themselves through trade than others, and thus the rich/poor divide would rapidly reassert itself.
Yep. I think I'm with you on that. If enforcing material equality did make for a happy society, then communism would "work" - and it's been proven not to.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Make of it whatever you like. I don't think one can continue to be rich and Christian.
Can one continue to be a judgmental prick and be a Christian?
I presume one hopes so.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Scary? Only in the sense that it's a perfect explanation of why Christianity declines the richer a society gets. If you tell people there's a straight choice between being rich or being Christian they will choose to be rich. And who can blame them?
Wrong. I am reading the quite excellent work God is Back by Mickletwait and Wooldridge, two columnists who work for The Economist (In fact I started a thread in Purg about the book that kind of died in the arse). It is clear that Christianity has proven itself at least as adaptable to economic conditions as capitalism.
Well sure, the parts of Christianity that have got rid of the straight choice between Christ and Wealth - the Prosperity Gospellers and their ilk - are still doing alright. And there are always plenty of people who are willing to offer explanations of how "the eye of a needle" was a gate in Jerusalem and so forth.
This really only holds if you swallow the caricature of Christianity the subject of the OP seems to. There is plenty in the NT to nuance the absurd dichotomy you are proposing between Christ and wealth.
Anyway, my point is that you were claiming that Christianity declines as wealth increases. And this is not true.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
What would it be like to live in a world in which the Good Samaritan doesn't have to be "good" because we have achieved material equality, but we have not yet been transformed and perfected?
It would be either of two things - utterly horrible, or incredibly short-lived.
The first would be if material equality was enforced, because in such a world there's no economic incentive to do anything (such as, say, operating sewage plants or power stations). Society would go to hell in days, either through nothing getting done or through the powers that be forcing the rest of us to work for nothing (i.e. slavery).
The second would be if material equality was not enforced, because even if it started out that way certain individuals (those who can charge more for what they have to offer than they need to spend on what they want) would inevitably be able to accumulate more for themselves through trade than others, and thus the rich/poor divide would rapidly reassert itself.
Yep. I think I'm with you on that. If enforcing material equality did make for a happy society, then communism would "work" - and it's been proven not to.
When? I didn't get that memo.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Yep. I think I'm with you on that. If enforcing material equality did make for a happy society, then communism would "work" - and it's been proven not to.
Would you like your material equality with dachas or without?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Well, Jesus himself seemed happy enough to accept the financial support of women with a little bit to spare. After all, it's not the amount you give but the proportion you keep that matters.
quote:
Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means. Luke 8:3
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
When? I didn't get that memo.
Not so much a memo as a little map you can click on
Thanks everso. I wonder if the BBC and yourself have heard of Cuba, North Korea and China? They aren't in Europe, and yet they exist.
I suppose one could retort that those three are hardly examples of communism as espoused by Marx and Engels. To which I would reply that the Soviet Union fell quite far short of that ideal, also. So to those who say Communism has been "proven" not to work, I world respond that it is yet to be attempted.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
I think the "yet" to be attempted line is defensible. But I guess I take the view that, because of human nature, it *will always fail* (or from your perspective, *will never be attempted*) and that has been proved to be the case - I would include Cuba, North Korea and China as proven examples of it not working.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Some societies and methods of social-political-economic organization are fairer than others, but we shall never build anything resembling utopia on Earth. Capitalism and communism are both children of the same mother church. Both have killed their mother,smothering her in greed and dogmatic BS.
The real resurrection would be rather welcome.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Make of it whatever you like. I don't think one can continue to be rich and Christian.
Can one continue to be a judgmental prick and be a Christian?
Nice thought! But we have such a merciful God, worse luck. Christianity is surely as full of judgemental pricks as any other religion!
As for pydseybare's comment. As I remember it, Jesus said it was (depending on Bible translation) impossible or very difficult for the rich/those who set their hearts on riches (so not necessarily rich people, just greedy ones) to enter the kingdom of heaven. He then went on to say, of course, that for or with God all things were possible.
As it happens I do think it's more difficult for the comfortably well-off to feel more acutely their need for God. But then that could as well describe a middle-income earner, in a nice little semi somewhere in a quiet part of the country, as much as some billionaire. And it is a potentially effective argument to say that possessing great riches and being a follower of Christ are incompatible. Though scripture fails to support this argument convincingly - there needs to be a lot of exegesis to get there.
But to come to pydseybare's conclusion I think one would have to disagree with Jesus about all things being possible with God.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I think the "yet" to be attempted line is defensible. But I guess I take the view that, because of human nature, it *will always fail* (or from your perspective, *will never be attempted*) and that has been proved to be the case - I would include Cuba, North Korea and China as proven examples of it not working.
One might possibly say the same of Christianity...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
When? I didn't get that memo.
Not so much a memo as a little map you can click on
It's funny how they mention that renamed Communist parties won the vote in a couple of countries, but still decide that's the end of communism.
Also, there's zero mention of what Belarus has actually been like for the last two decades.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
When? I didn't get that memo.
Not so much a memo as a little map you can click on
It's funny how they mention that renamed Communist parties won the vote in a couple of countries, but still decide that's the end of communism.
Also, there's zero mention of what Belarus has actually been like for the last two decades.
And a few more constituents of the old USSR haven't improved, Mother Russia for one. Same old injustice and tyranny, in different hands.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
But supposing the Samaritan has sold all he has and given it to the poor, but the bandits still don't think they have enough? They still rob and beat The Man, but The Samaritan, no matter how good, is unable to help: he doesn't have a donkey to bear the victim to safety and he doesn't have any surplus cash to pay for him to rest and recuperate.
So some poor people somewhere have to go hungry so this Man can be rescued by this Samaritan?
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I think the "yet" to be attempted line is defensible. But I guess I take the view that, because of human nature, it *will always fail* (or from your perspective, *will never be attempted*) and that has been proved to be the case - I would include Cuba, North Korea and China as proven examples of it not working.
One might possibly say the same of Christianity...
Whereas Capitalism HAS been tried, and found wanting.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I think the "yet" to be attempted line is defensible. But I guess I take the view that, because of human nature, it *will always fail* (or from your perspective, *will never be attempted*) and that has been proved to be the case - I would include Cuba, North Korea and China as proven examples of it not working.
One might possibly say the same of Christianity...
But we have Jesus and we have grace to make possible the things we are unable to even countenance by our own efforts. Which I see as being the essential difference between Christianity and Communism.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
But supposing the Samaritan has sold all he has and given it to the poor, but the bandits still don't think they have enough? They still rob and beat The Man, but The Samaritan, no matter how good, is unable to help: he doesn't have a donkey to bear the victim to safety and he doesn't have any surplus cash to pay for him to rest and recuperate.
So some poor people somewhere have to go hungry so this Man can be rescued by this Samaritan?
I think I'm saying it's more complicated than that. If *no-one* is going hungry, then in theory, the Man doesn't get beaten at all, because everyone has what they need (and no surplus, but never mind, because nobody needs to be the recipient of generosity).
But is this what really happens in practice? Or, if we attempt to enforce material equality, are some people still greedy and/or cruel, while no-one is generous?
Can the coming of the Kingdom (in economic terms) be achieved through social engineering alone? I would say not. Though that need not prevent us doing our best to make this world as fair as it can be.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I think the "yet" to be attempted line is defensible. But I guess I take the view that, because of human nature, it *will always fail* (or from your perspective, *will never be attempted*) and that has been proved to be the case - I would include Cuba, North Korea and China as proven examples of it not working.
One might possibly say the same of Christianity...
Whereas Capitalism HAS been tried, and found wanting.
I reckon one could make exactly the same arguments for Capitalism not have been attempted in its pure form as for Communism.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Whereas Capitalism HAS been tried, and found wanting.
By whom, using what criteria?
I happen to think it's working quite well.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Whereas Capitalism HAS been tried, and found wanting.
By whom, using what criteria?
By those who have not profited from it I should imagine .
One criteria is to compare the billions who don't share in the spoils of Capitalism with the smaller number that does .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Whereas Capitalism HAS been tried, and found wanting.
By whom, using what criteria?
By those who have not profited from it I should imagine .
Ok. But as nobody (well, except a few high-up members of The Party) profits from communism the fact that many do profit from capitalism still puts it ahead.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I would include Cuba, North Korea and China as proven examples of it not working.
If you want to say Chinese communism isn't real communism, then that I can agree with. I pretty much said as much. To say it isn't "working" is a statement based entirely on your ideology, rather than any kind of critical or empirical assessment. Unless you can show me otherwise.
I'm sure there are many Chinese who could echo Marvin's statements about how happy they are with how things are working within their own system.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Ok. But as nobody (well, except a few high-up members of The Party) profits from communism the fact that many do profit from capitalism still puts it ahead.
Well, there were a lot of people who found it harder to feed, clothe, house and get medical care or decent education for their families after the fall of the soviet union than they did before, and it was a long way from being only the senior party apparatchiks who were affected (they mostly did ok because they could "acquire" state assets).
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Capitalism works great for the 1%. God bless 'em.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Capitalism works great for the 1%. God bless 'em.
More than just them. I'm certainly not anywhere near being in the 1%. Hell, I'm probably not even in the top 40%. Pretty sure I'm better off under capitalism than I would be under communism (or any other serious form of socialism) though...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Capitalism works great for the 1%. God bless 'em.
More than just them. I'm certainly not anywhere near being in the 1%. Hell, I'm probably not even in the top 40%. Pretty sure I'm better off under capitalism than I would be under communism (or any other serious form of socialism) though...
Not for long. The middle class is being eroded, and the US is fast becoming a third-world nation of haves and have-nots, with the sort of wealth disparity seen in hellholes like Pinochet's Chile. This is what Capitalism does. Heavily regulated and socialist-ified capitalism, on the other hand, provides the benefits you mention. Naked capitalism leads to people chained to sewing machines and not given potty breaks, or (say) factories with suicide nets so the workers who aren't chained down can't escape that way.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Cadfael
Shipmate
# 11066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Capitalism works great for the 1%. God bless 'em.
More than just them. I'm certainly not anywhere near being in the 1%. Hell, I'm probably not even in the top 40%. Pretty sure I'm better off under capitalism than I would be under communism (or any other serious form of socialism) though...
Here's how to find out how rich you are.
I'd bet it is in (or near) the top 1%, at least for income.
Posts: 576 | From: North by North West | Registered: Feb 2006
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
That site is weird! I entered my income in UKP and got one figure, translated it into local currency here and entered it and got a completely different figure. I don't know who created the site but they need to learn a little basic arithmetic!
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Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Cadfael
Shipmate
# 11066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
That site is weird! I entered my income in UKP and got one figure, translated it into local currency here and entered it and got a completely different figure. I don't know who created the site but they need to learn a little basic arithmetic!
It's probably corrected for "purchasing power parity". For example, goods that would cost one dollar in the US will cost, on average, 40 cents in India.
More info on PPP here.
By placing yourself in India in the calculations you got more bang for your converted buck (or sterling, in this case). But I expect you've probably noticed money goes further there, anyway.
Posts: 576 | From: North by North West | Registered: Feb 2006
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Cadfael
Shipmate
# 11066
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Posted
...or maybe the site is buggered. I can't get the calculations to check out...
Pity. The site sponsors, Care, are quite reputable...
Posts: 576 | From: North by North West | Registered: Feb 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Heavily regulated and socialist-ified capitalism...
...is still capitalism.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Heavily regulated and socialist-ified capitalism...
...is still capitalism.
.... which is what I would call compassionate capitalism .
Something most still enjoy here at present as opposed to the days of the 'Dark Satanic Mills'.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, children working in factories all day long is capitalism; so are garment factories in Asia, with long hours, poor conditions, rock bottom wages.
I suppose today the 3 main political parties in the UK seem to accept that deregulation is important, so that makes me wonder how far this can go? Zero hours contracts - what's next?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose today the 3 main political parties in the UK seem to accept that deregulation is important, so that makes me wonder how far this can go? Zero hours contracts - what's next?
Modern day slave labour is one by-product, if what we hear on the news is to be believed.
Luring vulnerable unemployed individuals into exploitative labour has seen an increase , and the penalties for those caught doing it has likewise been raised as a deterrent .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose today the 3 main political parties in the UK seem to accept that deregulation is important, so that makes me wonder how far this can go? Zero hours contracts - what's next?
Modern day slave labour is one by-product, if what we hear on the news is to be believed.
Luring vulnerable unemployed individuals into exploitative labour has seen an increase , and the penalties for those caught doing it has likewise been raised as a deterrent .
Surely, the employer today is top dog. Low wages, no strike deals, zero hour contracts, hire and fire capacity increased, tribunals more difficult - it's fab.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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