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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Secret Of The Universe
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I am very clever, you just don't like my questions.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Your original assertion has been dealt with.
Where?
- "X does not say something about A."
- "To the contrary, X does say something about A. Namely B."
- "But B is wrong because of random crap C filling my head."
- "Your original assertion has been answered."
- "Where?"
*looks around for B. Can't see it*
Must be a case of to be or not to be.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You're still missing the link between existence per se and for the glory of another (God).
The only existent per se is God.
According to who and whose axiom?
If humanity has no existence per se then God is vain (or somesuch like I referred to above) or of his/her nature not a giver but a taker (which is not what the biblical witness reports).
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
When you worship God, who benefits?
Me. So?
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I take it Adam and Eve were created imperfectly in your view then?
Not at all. They were created naturally perfect, had the preternatural gifts of infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence and bodily immortality, and possessed the supernatural gift of sanctifying grace.
Yet the saints in heaven cannot sin, but Adam and Eve did. Try to understand why, and you will discover why I spoke of final beatitude, and what Adam and Eve were lacking.
Final beatification sounds rather stultifying. No free-will eh?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
*looks around for B. Can't see it*
Must be a case of to be or not to be.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Sorry Evensong, 'twas pydseybare, not you. No link intended, not even a capricious one. Squished myself!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
*looks around for B. Can't see it*
Must be a case of to be or not to be.
Oh come on. That was effing brilliant. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Sorry Evensong, 'twas pydseybare, not you. No link intended, not even a capricious one. Squished myself!
You sure about that? You mentioned my name at least three times in a derogatory manner on the last page.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Don't be paranoid, just because he's criticised you on another page. I can disagree with some things you say (I'm sure I have quite a few times) yet agree with others. I found this quite profound. quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
When you worship God, who benefits?
Me. So?
Sometimes brevity is best.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Sorry Evensong, 'twas pydseybare, not you. No link intended, not even a capricious one. Squished myself!
You sure about that? You mentioned my name at least three times in a derogatory manner on the last page.
Yes. I simply conflated the pydseybare "worm squish" with the Evensong/Marvin/comet "brain" exchange. Quite liked the latter, BTW, but IngoB was having a comparative dig at all three of you. I didn't see that in the same light as the pydseybare worm exchange.
I begin to see why IngoB made the point about explaining these kinds of remarks! But that's what was going on. Honest injun. I need more practice in Hell.
So I'll get mai coat now ...
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
According to who and whose axiom?
According to the Christian belief that God is the Creator, and all else is creation. Or if you prefer, according to the metaphysical conclusion that there is only one Uncaused Cause.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If humanity has no existence per se then God is vain (or somesuch like I referred to above) or of his/her nature not a giver but a taker (which is not what the biblical witness reports).
Nothing exists necessarily but God. Everything else exists for a reason, namely God. "Vanity" is not a helpful label in this context.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
When you worship God, who benefits?
Me. So?
Precisely. So who benefits when you give glory to God?
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Final beatification sounds rather stultifying. No free-will eh?
Of course there is free will in heaven. What has changed is that the saints (and blessed angels) can see clearly what they want.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
According to who and whose axiom?
According to the Christian belief that God is the Creator, and all else is creation. Or if you prefer, according to the metaphysical conclusion that there is only one Uncaused Cause.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If humanity has no existence per se then God is vain (or somesuch like I referred to above) or of his/her nature not a giver but a taker (which is not what the biblical witness reports).
Nothing exists necessarily but God. Everything else exists for a reason, namely God. "Vanity" is not a helpful label in this context.
Ah. Interesting. I think we're getting hung up on semantics again.
I understand and agree with the Uncaused cause and that nothing exists necessarily but God but is that the same thing as asking Why? Isn't that more the How?
Are we talking at cross purposes here because you're assuming efficient cause rather than final cause?
For example: the beautiful rubber ball analogy of Feser's on pgs 62 - 63 in The Last Superstition. The efficient cause is the factory that made the ball. The final cause is the child's amusement.
What is our final cause? Amusement? Or you say the glory of God. But the why question is still begging. The next step still needs to be taken.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
When you worship God, who benefits?
Me. So?
Precisely. So who benefits when you give glory to God?
But actually you are hinting at final cause here aren't you? Glorifying God acts as a kind of feedback loop for humanity wot?
So I suppose the question that remains is exactly what benefit do we get when we glorify God? Self-transcendence?
But then I suppose one could start muttering to oneself about the initial need for self at all wot? Why did God create humanity and self when the point is to transcend it?
Enter stage left - Evensong's brain explodes.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Final beatification sounds rather stultifying. No free-will eh?
Of course there is free will in heaven. What has changed is that the saints (and blessed angels) can see clearly what they want.
Interesting idea. It implies Adam and Eve didn't know what they wanted. The text of Genesis tells us they knew what they wanted. They wanted to be wise like God.
Which still raises the question of why God didn't like the idea in the Garden but doesn't mind it in final beatification.....
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
oh shut the fuck up, both of you. get your heads out of your asses and go outside and interact with humans.
Jaysus. life is too short for this shit.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Reading this I firstly give thanks I don't have to, then I think "How the hell did this come into being?" Then I remember the threadstarter, but Holy Moly, we can't hold Frank responsible for some of the recent garbage.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Bored now.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
get your heads out of your asses and go outside and interact with humans.
I think Evensong is human. I could be wrong... Also, it was raining outside (NSFW?) and I ran out of people to interact with. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Bingo, have you been reading Timothy Leary?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Also, it was raining outside and I ran out of people to interact with.
wimp.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
oh shut the fuck up, both of you. get your heads out of your asses and go outside and interact with humans.
Jaysus. life is too short for this shit.
But comet, I'm a theologian. This shit is what I do for a living. It's what gets me out of bed in the morning.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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