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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 'Shaming the Tiger': What should churches do?
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Lets hope the NZ press keep on digging...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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maybury
Apprentice
# 17926
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Posted
All have sinned and fallen short . . . " so I would not expect anyones story to be completely accurate.
Someone who gets respect for a dramatic life story will be tempted to embellish that but having done so it is hard to correct. I know that I have said things in the past that I now know to be wrong. Thankfully they were not in print.
Someone coming from a life of crime will understandably take time to purify their lives.
None of this is to defend the lies but to avoid the false simplification that anyone who lies is all evil, otherwise that should apply to all of us not just those in the spotlight.
Tony has admitted most of his past mistakes. The basis of his conversion and his connection with Michael Wright seem verifiably true.
We are told to judge on the basis of "by their fruits you shall know them" .
Tony did some events near us that I was involved in. He did so free of charge, worked hard whilst he was here. I wondered if he was trying to "work his salvation". He didn't want to talk about his past other but about God's redemption.
If lying is his temptation then it is not surprising that he falls that way again. What are your temptations and have you fallen that way since conversion.
I'm glad this has been investigated and brought into the open but lets also look at ourselves and particularly religious institutions who seem overly keen to destroy the good rather than just expose the wrong. We all need correcting, and forgiveness.
Posts: 1 | From: Scotland | Registered: Dec 2013
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
quote:
I would not expect anyones story to be completely accurate.
This is an exceedingly generous interpretation of Mr. Anthony's weak grasp of what the term "accuracy" means to most of us.
The New Zealand Tribune article (Oct. 22, 2013), linked by Wesley J: article, refers to ...
... quote:
Mr. Anthony's admission that parts of his story are "no longer historically accurate."
No Longer Historically Accurate ! Are we to infer that his claims WERE "accurate" at the time he wrote them but have, magically, become false? If so, something truly miraculous has occurred.
Mr. Anthony was not just selling books and collecting fees (though that seems to have been a big part of his job description). He was witnessing to an extraordinary conversion experience and setting himself up as an exemplar for others. I don't know why certain faith communities get taken in by charismatic figures like Mr. Anthony, or even why they find such people charismatic. This thread has offered a number of plausible explanations. The negative consequences, however, are multiple. One of the worst, it seems to me, is that his story confirms for many in the outside world a common prejudice: that "faith" is synonymous with credulity.
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Maybury, welcome to the Ship!
Please take the time to read our Ten Commandments and board posting guidelines and introduce yourself if you wish on the "welcome aboard" thread in All Saints.
Eutychus
Purgatory Host
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by maybury:
All have sinned and fallen short . . . " so I would not expect anyones story to be completely accurate.
Someone who gets respect for a dramatic life story will be tempted to embellish that but having done so it is hard to correct. I know that I have said things in the past that I now know to be wrong. Thankfully they were not in print.
Here the problem isn’t in the story not being “completely accurate” – it’s more a case of trying to find the small percentage that is accurate.
quote:
Tony has admitted most of his past mistakes. The basis of his conversion and his connection with Michael Wright seem verifiably true.
Nobody has called into question the circumstances of his conversion and connection with Michael Wright. What has been called into question is pretty much everything he says about his pre-conversion life. In an interview on Premier Radio, John Langlois, chairman of the EA panel, said that if he were to remove everything that was fabricated – not just exaggerated but fabricated – he’d be left with a “very thin pamphlet”.
Tony has admitted to minor errors in the book. He has not admitted that he made most of it up. More specifically he has not admitted that he did not spend his childhood in China, that he was not a Kung Fu champion and that he did not work in close protection. The EA would not have taken the action it took for anything less serious than this as evidenced by its report on page 5 of the November/December issue of its magazine.
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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine
Posts: 1090 | From: En lieu sûr | Registered: Dec 2002
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PDA
Apprentice
# 16531
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Posted
Im so tired of hearing this "we are all sinners so just be nice to people that harm others and let them walk all over everybody without obstruction because thats what the bible says"
Michael Wright unknowingly taught a career conman that christians are easy targets and many of them will believe anything you say and be extremely generous if you tell them what they want to hear.
Tony Anthony has been working those moves ever since and looks to have taught a few other criminals the game too.
Try to out christian me as much as you want but thats how it is.
Posts: 40 | From: Essex | Registered: Jul 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I recall some words in respect of one of the most notorious liars in British public life. John Stonehouse. After investigation of his business affairs, the Department of Trade inspectors came out with this memorable bit of prose.
quote:
Mr. Stonehouse personally instigated falsification of records and indulged in misrepresentations in an attempt to hide the illegalities which had taken place and to avoid his own actual or potential criminal and civil liabilities for them. In relation to the subject of our investigation we concluded that for Mr. Stonehouse truth was a moving target
An MP in the Commons. commenting on another matter which Stonehouse may have been involved in, said this.
quote:
If, in that respect, those words are fair comment, why not in other respects?
That's the distinction I would always draw. Proven liars in one area make bloody awful witnesses in any other. Losing your credibility in this respect may not take very long, recovering it, even to a limited extent, may take the rest of your life.
Tony Anthony was taken on face value and trusted. He didn't just let himself down, he let down everyone else who had trusted him.
Now is that forgiveable? Yes it is. Does that mean that following forgiveness he is to be trusted once again to be telling the truth? No it does not. That is not retaining unforgiveness. It's just about being wise.
Tony Anthony is 7 doors deep in the doghouse by his own actions. Sure he can helped out of that. Repentance and restoration are always possible. But it can be a long, slow, process, and rightly so. Old habits can die hard, despite the best of intentions. In these circumstances the verification of trust can take many years.
There is actually a rather good New Testament example. If you read Paul's own personal testimony in Galatians 1 and 2, you'll see something interesting. There are at least 17 years between his conversion after his persecution of Christians and the blessing conveyed by the church on his missionary journey with Barnabas. It needs to be remembered that he consented to the death of Stephen.
That period whizzes over in Acts, and there are some harmonisation issues as well. But it seems clear that it was a long, long time before he was trusted with the major responsibility of missionary to the Gentiles. Even then, he wasn't sent off alone, but with Barnabas, who by the brief accounts in scripture was a "good egg". To work with him and keep an eye on him? Seems likely!
And before that, the consistency of his change of heart, mind, soul and life was tested by various duties and confirmed by independent reports. It's all there, in his own words.
That ought to tell us something about him. In the opening to the letter he is reminding readers of his scabby past and his long rehabilitation. He needs to do that because he is about to launch headlong into a major controversy in the early church and give his passionate views about what it true. One of the most remarkable books in the New Testament (and Galatians is in many respects an astonishing book) is launched by someone for whom trust was an issue because of his past.
Forgiveness, rehabilitation, trust are sensitive matters. It's a good idea not to mix them up.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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PDA
Apprentice
# 16531
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Posted
Yes that all makes sense but has no relevance as Tony Anthony has shown no signs of repetance in fact quite the opposite so I for one will hold onto my forgiveness until he does.
He was a big con man and has been demoted to a small one , i am not expecting him to become an appostle anytime soon.
And yes yes I know all things are possible but not all things are likely.
Posts: 40 | From: Essex | Registered: Jul 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
C.S. Lewis pointed out that we should not offer the God of Truth the unclean sacrifice of a lie.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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