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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Girl sues parents for support
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
justlooking - the legal situation is that children are only allowed in pubs if there is a children's room. A young person of 16 may be bought a glass of beer, wine or cider with a meal. Nobody under 18 may buy an alcoholic drink for themselves or others.
Your barman was definitely acting illegally.
This provision
quote:
However if you’re 16 or 17 and accompanied by an adult, you can drink (but not buy) beer, wine or cider with a meal.
used to be for age 14 and did not include wine - the provision was for alcoholic drinks below a certain strength so most wines would not have been included.
Yes, the barman was acting illegally but ISTM there was provision for common-sense which was accepted in practice if not in law. I've been served alcohol in school uniform along with other 16 - 18 year olds - no questions asked despite it being a city centre bar. My point is that in the past, in the UK, bar staff were allowed a certain discretion in practice if not in law and it was generally accepted that alcohol in moderation was OK for teenagers. I can also recall going out for a meal with a group of sixth-formers aged 16 and 17 where we ordered and were served with several bottles of wine.
[ 09. March 2014, 14:13: Message edited by: justlooking ]
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And where's the freakin' boyfriend in all this? He seems to have dropped out of the picture altogether.
If he had his wits about him, he'd run yelling and screaming as far away as he could get!
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
On the other hand, weirdly, this story seems to have reached our Daily Mail. So that makes me wonder whether it was ever true in the first place.
This seems as good a quote as any with which to remind people that this is speculation about living persons, some of it unpleasant. What the Daily Mail prints is its responsibility, but the Ship is keen to steer clear of legal trouble. Please bear this in mind when posting. Admins advised.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
justlooking - the legal situation is that children are only allowed in pubs if there is a children's room. A young person of 16 may be bought a glass of beer, wine or cider with a meal. Nobody under 18 may buy an alcoholic drink for themselves or others.
Your barman was definitely acting illegally.
Yes, but it wasn't unusual in the 70s and early 80s. My experience as a 16 year old was much the same as justlooking's. A group of us 16 & 17 year olds (all friends from church as it happens!) used to go to the same pub that the choir went to after rehearsal. The adults from the choir knew who we were and I'm pretty certain the landlord was aware too. Provided we didn't make a racket or cause any trouble, he turned a blind eye.
[ 09. March 2014, 17:43: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Yes, this is how I remember it too. At the end of the school term when we were 16, 17, 18, we pupils used to go to the same pub as the teaching staff - we all just made sure we were in different bars. No one turned a hair.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
One of the smaller but symptomatic things that really annoys me about politicians and other public figures is when they go on about the iniquities of underage drinking when you know that they did it themselves because everybody did, and I assume, does.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Not everybody does. Based on what I've heard on the Ship, I suspect it's much more common in the UK. Though we have plenty of kids who do here, too, but it still seems like an order of magnitude difference.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
From Enoch:
If that's really true, I actually find that quite a shocking intrusion into how one parents one's children. Is such a law actually enforced or is it de facto ignored?
It is no more an intrusion than the law saying that if as a matter of parenting I beat Dlet to within an inch of his life every second evening, I can't be charged with assault.
With drinking at home, it would be more a question of obtaining sufficient evidence to sustain a conviction. That may be difficult.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D: From Enoch:
If that's really true, I actually find that quite a shocking intrusion into how one parents one's children. Is such a law actually enforced or is it de facto ignored?
It is no more an intrusion than the law saying that if as a matter of parenting I beat Dlet to within an inch of his life every second evening, I can't be charged with assault.
With drinking at home, it would be more a question of obtaining sufficient evidence to sustain a conviction. That may be difficult.
Sorry, but that's disproportionate and a nonsense comparison. Beating Dlet to within an inch of his life every second evening is cruelty so severe as to outweigh the normal and proper inhibition against the state/law intruding itself into peoples' family lives. I would imagine most people in most countries would think it is weird to regard it as anything other than my business whether I let my 17 year old son or daughter drink beer or wine at home, or what I regard as the best way to encourage him or her in a sensible attitude towards alcohol.
Is this Australia's example of Kinder-egg syndrome? There seems to be a rule that every country has to have at least one bit of law that looks nuts to anyone from anywhere else.
I am sure we have plenty, though perhaps if one lives in a place one is blind to what looks odd to others. Not being able to buy more than two packets of aspirins simultaneously, certainly strikes me as peculiarly and pointlessly interfering.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I have a faint suspicion that Gee D was referring to something else, and you two are at cross purposes for the moment...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I have a faint suspicion that Gee D was referring to something else, and you two are at cross purposes for the moment...
And getting far off the point... which is not at all about whether or not a parent should be allowed to give their teen a beer at dinner, but about whether an older unrelated male should get 15 year old girls drunk against their parent's wishes and away their supervision, (possibly deliberately) generating a familial rift, swoop in and move the girl into your home, then have the gall to sue the parents for support.
That's several light years away from letting your own son or daughter have a sip of wine in your own home.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I found some court records of the case.
There was a child protective services investigation of the abuse complaints; the conclusion was that the complaints were unfounded. One allegation was that the parents had broken the furniture in the girl's room and kicked in the door. The investigation showed that there was no damage.
After reading the legal submissions from both sides, I think the parents are far more reasonable.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I have friends who enjoy going to a sports bar and playing trivia against other teams in the bar or by satellite. When their kid was a child, no problem bringing him along. When he was about 14, he could no longer enter the building. Serving under-aged people can get a bar server or bar owner in big trouble.
I guess everyone figures no cop will suspect they are serving beer to a child, but having a teenager hang out and asking a cop to NOT jump to the conclusion the teen is drinking, that's asking for trouble. Big noise before it shakes out, disrupting business. (Of course by 14 many teens have a fake IDs.)
Kids are not supposed to consume alcohol in USA. Usually no one cares what you serve your own kid in your own home, but serving someone else's kid can result in a fine or jail time. I think parents rarely file charges, the police get involved when things are way out of line, like the party spills into a neighbors property without permission or a kid crashes a car drunk on the way home, something very public.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Something that's really sad about this case, is that whatever the rights and wrongs - and having read the papers linked to, my instinctive sympathies are with the parents - what does it do for the future prospects of the family ever getting back to any sort of normality or for this unfortunate adolescent negotiating her passage to adulthood successfully? The fact that this is all been in the press, even in foreign countries, and people, including me, can read the court papers, can't help.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
One thing I noticed in the court documents was that the girl's submission contained at least one lie.
She said that she currently held various responsible positions at school. She had held them, but they were all taken away from her when she was caught drinking alcohol at a school dance.
It's quite possible that the parents have lied too, but there is no evidence of that at present.
There is one thing about the American attitude towards teenage drinking that many shippies don't understand. Many American teenagers have cars, and teenage drunk driving kills quite a lot of people. Adult drunk driving kills lots of people also, of course, but the combination of alcohol and lack of experience makes teenage drunk drivers especially dangerous.
In the late 1980s, the federal Department of Transportation said it would withhold federal highway funds from any state that had a lower legal drinking age than twenty-one. I think it would be better if this were handled on a more local level.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
In the late 1980s, the federal Department of Transportation said it would withhold federal highway funds from any state that had a lower legal drinking age than twenty-one. I think it would be better if this were handled on a more local level.
It used to be handled at the local level and that created problems. Kids drove from the home county or state to the nearby county or state with the lower age limit. Then they drove home drunk (if getting drunk was the goal, as is surprisingly often seems to be). But the drive home could easily be 30 or 50 miles. That's a lot of drunken time on the road.
Changing to a uniform age limit put the drunkenness "underground", but kept the kids much closer to home, a shorter drunk drive home after the party. That shorter drunken drives was a goal of the uniform age.
Before that, the age was 18 for a while, then some places raised it to 19 because 18 is high school senior which means some high school students can legally buy booze to bring to a party and supply younger friends at school. 19 is out of high school, no longer attending school parties.
The bigger question to me is why the kids like to get drunk or get each other drunk. Hangovers are miserable!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
All of which is interesting, but really tangental to this case. This case isn't about teens sneaking out to score some beer and drink it behind the 7-11. It's not about parents giving kids a glass of wine at dinner. It's not about clueless parents looking the other way while their teen has a kegger in the basement. This case quite possibly isn't even about what it appears to be on the surface-- a dispute between a teen & parents about appropriate discipline and/or financial support vs. independence.
The key dark secret, possibly, at the core of this case, is why an unrelated adult male is nurturing a relationship with this girl over several years, supplying her with alcohol & getting her drunk on a regular basis, in a way that seems designed to drive a wedge between her and her parents, then swoops in to move her into his place and sue her parents to provide $$ support for this cozy arrangement.
[ 10. March 2014, 19:03: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/
This seems as good a quote as any with which to remind people that this is speculation about living persons, some of it unpleasant. What the Daily Mail prints is its responsibility, but the Ship is keen to steer clear of legal trouble. Please bear this in mind when posting. Admins advised.
/hosting
What part of this post by a host are you finding difficulty with?
Don't let there be a next time, or one of us might just delete this thread to keep us clear of legal complications.
Alan
Ship of Fools Admin
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
oh, sorry. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
She's returned home.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I note in that article it says:
quote:
Canning left her parents’ house on Oct. 30, two days before she turned 18 after a tumultuous stretch during which her parents separated and reconciled and the teen began getting into uncharacteristic trouble at school.
It does place the whole situation in a rather different context.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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