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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What's your theology of marriage?
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
I'm sure you realise how right you are no prophet.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
I read today that in an Orthodox wedding there are no vows exchanged. The idea is that God unites the couple during the ceremony. A union not a contract.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
I read today that in an Orthodox wedding there are no vows exchanged. The idea is that God unites the couple during the ceremony. A union not a contract.
It is true, we have no vows. We believe God unites two people in a mystery (the literal translation of the Greek word for the sorts of actions (baptism, marriage, ordination) the Latins call sacraments). Like the miracle that turns bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, there is no one point in the service we can point to and say, "Before this point they're not married, and after it, they're married."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
I read today that in an Orthodox wedding there are no vows exchanged. The idea is that God unites the couple during the ceremony. A union not a contract.
It is true, we have no vows. We believe God unites two people in a mystery (the literal translation of the Greek word for the sorts of actions (baptism, marriage, ordination) the Latins call sacraments). Like the miracle that turns bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, there is no one point in the service we can point to and say, "Before this point they're not married, and after it, they're married."
Right. The only words exchanged are to answer two questions: are you entering into this of your own free will, and have you promised youself to anyone else. Thats it. And those answers are given to the priest, not each other. And let me tell you, after an hour+ long ceremony, you REALLY feel married!
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
We don't do anything fast if we can help it. (This is why Orthodox make better lovers.)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I would say marriage is like friendship in only the sense that they are human relationships and can be emotionally close. They are otherwise quantum leaps apart. The comparison might be of going for coffee or tea with a friend, but having a full course meal with a spouse, and having the full course meal every day. And then holding the spouse when they are sick with what you've eaten together, and they you. (And, in my case, creating miniature people together makes it rather different as well.)
My friends have literally and figuratively held me while I was sick. The quantum leap resides in the commitment to retain the relationship through stressors and profound differences that would otherwise erode a friendship, the legal ramifications of binding two lives together through possessions and children and the emotional fall out of perhaps seeing that important, intimate and profoundly connected relationship wither away.
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
A quantum leap is the smallest of changes ;-)
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
Some of my friends have made the jump from marriage back to friendship. They are much better off than those who made the jump to unfriendliness.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
We don't do anything fast if we can help it. (This is why Orthodox make better lovers.)
That made me smile. I see the Orthodox Plot™ is still alive and kicking.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some of my friends have made the jump from marriage back to friendship. They are much better off than those who made the jump to unfriendliness.
Without going into details I have something of this order going on with one of my offspring .
Marriage for some , rather than being the bringer of joy growing in delight over the years, can for some strange reason become a massive burden of expectation for both parties . Failure of the expectation seems to pretty much lead directly to the failure of the marriage these days.
Re OP ? My personal theology on marriage is that it is ordained by God . But like a lot of things ordained by God it is also shrouded in mystery, and not something I'll enter into lightly a second time.
[ 23. March 2014, 09:49: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Fool on the hill
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# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some of my friends have made the jump from marriage back to friendship. They are much better off than those who made the jump to unfriendliness.
Without going into details I have something of this order going on with one of my offspring .
Marriage for some , rather than being the bringer of joy growing in delight over the years, can for some strange reason become a massive burden of expectation for both parties . Failure of the expectation seems to pretty much lead directly to the failure of the marriage these days.
Re OP ? My personal theology on marriage is that it is ordained by God . But like a lot of things ordained by God it is also shrouded in mystery, and not something I'll enter into lightly a second time.
I agree about the expectation of marriage. The societal expectation can be suffocating. So much is expected, the entire weight of the world it seems sometimes. And when the entire weight of the world fails you, that's when people split.
So, maybe (because I have not a clue, not a clue, not a clue. Do I sound emotional? Uh, yea, cause I am.) we need to stop putting so many expectations on marriage. But, where do we stop and start our expectations? What are appropriate expectations? Is it up to the individuals? Both? Compromise? And if there is no compromise?
It comes down to, what are the expectations for our own individual lives? I don't know.
Doesn't "God" place a huge amount of expectation on a marriage? A relationship ordained, ordered, by God? Terrifying.
Shrouded in mystery? Sometimes it seems completely covered in mystery. A massive Rubik's cube. I just keep turning it, and turning it and turning it....
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Doesn't "God" place a huge amount of expectation on a marriage? A relationship ordained, ordered, by God? Terrifying.
Shrouded in mystery? Sometimes it seems completely covered in mystery. A massive Rubik's cube. I just keep turning it, and turning it and turning it....
Human selfishness places a huge amount of quite unreasonable expectation and pressure on marriages.
As it does on any other relationship.
There is nothing terribly mysterious involved in learning to be more loving by learning to be less selfishness. It's a challenge of course.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Some of my friends have made the jump from marriage back to friendship. They are much better off than those who made the jump to unfriendliness.
Yes - and I also know some who have remained in the same house, as friends.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Doesn't "God" place a huge amount of expectation on a marriage? A relationship ordained, ordered, by God? Terrifying.
Shrouded in mystery? Sometimes it seems completely covered in mystery. A massive Rubik's cube. I just keep turning it, and turning it and turning it....
I know the 'God' thing sounds a bit heavy , but one thing the Bible makes a big play on is fidelity . Something that seems to be entirely lost on today's generation .
Didn't I hear the other day that a good many people surfing IT dating sites are already married !?
Maybe better not to turn the cube too much FOTH , one day the colours might just all line up and it could lose some of it's allure .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Doesn't "God" place a huge amount of expectation on a marriage? A relationship ordained, ordered, by God? Terrifying.
Shrouded in mystery? Sometimes it seems completely covered in mystery. A massive Rubik's cube. I just keep turning it, and turning it and turning it....
I know the 'God' thing sounds a bit heavy , but one thing the Bible makes a big play on is fidelity . Something that seems to be entirely lost on today's generation .
Didn't I hear the other day that a good many people surfing IT dating sites are already married !?
Maybe better not to turn the cube too much FOTH , one day the colours might just all line up and it could lose some of it's allure .
Not such a big play. I don't think infidelity is new to this generation. Though social media has certainly made it easier. And people surfing the dating sites are so not all young. I have a lot of single friends.
It's true I don't know what I'd do with myself back when I played Rubik's cube if I had ever solved it. Probably thrown it away.
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Not such a big play. I don't think infidelity is new to this generation.
Well yes, I admit King Solomon didn't rate fidelity to one person very highly in his theology.
Maybe I'm thinking more of references to God not tolerating the 'adulterous' Israelites with their dabbling in other gods etc. etc . Then ,in the NT, Jesus doesn't seem to pull His punches on the theme a couple becoming 'One in the Father' and the perils of adultery.
I wasn't knocking dating sites per se , very good way to form a relationship . Just seemed a bit odd that it's been said so many married people are browsing around them.
Thinking about it , before the age of computers, I used to occasionally cast an eye over the lonely hearts column ,(as it was called then), just out of curiosity . That was before my marriage hit the rocks.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Ones selfishness is another's sacrifice.
Sure. There's a mutuality in this. When it works, we learn together how to move from falling in love to loving. When one partner chooses to dominate or manipulate, things go wrong. They don't have to.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Ones selfishness is another's sacrifice.
Sure. There's a mutuality in this. When it works, we learn together how to move from falling in love to loving. When one partner chooses to dominate or manipulate, things go wrong. They don't have to.
What I mean is that at some point, selflessness turns into sacrifice. Sometimes selfishness is really a need surfacing or unmet. Sometimes the sacrifice is too great. Sometimes the selfishness dominates, and sometimes there is manipulation to get what you want or need, and yes, that is a choice, but it isn't a simple choice. You make it sound so simple. It's not.
Human beings are complex creatures and I'm not sure that two people can travel that continuum between selflessness and selfishness in tandem. Divorce and infidelity rates attest to that.
And there are so many key words in what you've said here. "When it works" (and when it doesn't?), "learn together", (and when they don't?), "one partner" (and so the other?). Even the words dominate and manipulate need defining.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Summaries always sound simple. Perhaps it would help if I observed that falling off the tandem is normal? Tandems are quite difficult to keep balanced until you get the knack.
I'm not sure that I can incorporate 45 years of experience of living with one person in just a few words anyway. Even if I could, there is no way of knowing that the lessons in love we've learned together would read across. It's been a rich and fulfilling adventure for us, with plenty of ups and downs and not a few tandem falls. We always found it within us to get back on the tandem again. Not all couples find they can do that.
Your comments about unmet needs are wise, of course. There is no remedy for that which can be found without honest talk. Candour and vulnerability depend on trust, that the relationship can stand it. Sometimes you have to take a chance. Progress is when the unmet need is recognised not just as a problem for one of us, but for both if us. Looking not just to your own needs, but to the needs of your partner, is where the rubber hits the road in the journey towards unselfish loving.
I think it is a pity this kind of conversation doesn't happen more often in preparation for marriage, or seeking to establish some kind of long term relationship by other means.
[ 25. March 2014, 20:27: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Fool on the hill
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# 9428
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Posted
I'm not sure, barnabas, that these conversations before marriage would help that much. Like you said, there's no substitution for actually living it. You have to turn the rubiks cube yourself.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
I agree in part. Every attempt at marriage is unique. But it is possible to learn from other people's experience of what works and what doesn't. Folks can judge for themselves what "reads across" and what doesn't.
Doesn't it strike you as somewhat crazy that many couples spend up to a year's elapsed time, and loads and loads of planning and preparation time for the wedding day, taking advice from all sorts of folks about what will work, what is best what will make the day "just perfect"? And yet remarkably few take anything like an equivalent amount of time to consult, take advice, about how to make the long term work.
Sure, marriage is under a cloud, given current divorce rates, and I don't blame anyone who looks at the debris (particularly if they've seen it from the inside in their own families) and says, maybe this whole thing is not such a great idea. But loads of folks still want to get married. That, if you like, is the "target audience" for some serious preparation.
The debris suggest that there's a mismatch between expectation and reality. All I'm suggesting is some of that can be avoided by some serious consideration about how to make the long term work.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I agree in part. Every attempt at marriage is unique. But it is possible to learn from other people's experience of what works and what doesn't. Folks can judge for themselves what "reads across" and what doesn't.
Doesn't it strike you as somewhat crazy that many couples spend up to a year's elapsed time, and loads and loads of planning and preparation time for the wedding day, taking advice from all sorts of folks about what will work, what is best what will make the day "just perfect"? And yet remarkably few take anything like an equivalent amount of time to consult, take advice, about how to make the long term work.
Sure, marriage is under a cloud, given current divorce rates, and I don't blame anyone who looks at the debris (particularly if they've seen it from the inside in their own families) and says, maybe this whole thing is not such a great idea. But loads of folks still want to get married. That, if you like, is the "target audience" for some serious preparation.
The debris suggest that there's a mismatch between expectation and reality. All I'm suggesting is some of that can be avoided by some serious consideration about how to make the long term work.
Totally agree. The only problem is that people change. So expectations change. Reality changes.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
People do change. It's all a bit knife edged really. Marriage, or any equivalent long term relationship, is a kind of crucible. It produces challenges for us, some of which require us to adapt.
I feel it's changed me for the better and my wife feels the same. I think it's possible for the challenges and resulting changes to strengthen the relationship, not weaken it, but it sure isn't guaranteed.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
My own theology of marriage (which has developed over the years) is heavily influenced by the Orthodox view that it is a podvig, or ascetic labor/vocation - the way being a monastic would be. That the partners work together in grace. That it's not about love in the feeling sense, though it absolutely involves that.
So I would say, marriage is a covenantal acting out of Christ's sacrificial love between two people.
I then blend it with Quakerism. Love is a decision, followed by loving action. That decision can arise from the feeling of love, and the feeling of love is 100% a part of this loving action. But I'm not sure how many people understand how the feeling can encourage the action as much as the action the feeling. That is to say, about once a week I feel deeply in my heart that my beloved is totally wrong and really needs to be yelled at a great deal so that he will be brought to a full and deep appreciation of my correctness. But I still do my best to behave with love, even if I definitely am experiencing a lacuna in the feeling itself. And with loving action, the feeling resrfaces on a regular basis, even after two decades.
Now I will quote Fromm:
“Love is a decision, it is a judgment, it is a promise. If love were only a feeling, there would be no basis for the promise to love each other forever. A feeling comes and it may go. How can I judge that it will stay forever, when my act does not involve judgment and decision.”
― Erich Fromm, The Art of Loving
You're welcome!
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Shouting is OK as a way of signalling "you are so annoying" or "you aren't listening".
It just runs the risk of becoming a means of both generating fear and improving the chances of getting your own way. The real point is knowing the risk to the relationship if you go down that road.
I missed noticing you were back posting, Laura. Good to see you. I like the Fromm quote a lot.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Thanks!
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Shouting is OK as a way of signalling "you are so annoying" or "you aren't listening".
It just runs the risk of becoming a means of both generating fear and improving the chances of getting your own way. The real point is knowing the risk to the relationship if you go down that road.
D. H. Lawrence pointed to the fact that a couple in a second marriage often experience a kind of 'truce' that didn't exist in their first marriages.
In first marriages some couples can treat each other as emotional punch-bags ,(not in the literal sense of course), in the belief it doesn't matter.
In a second marriage/LTR one tends to not want to take that risk.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Summaries always sound simple. Perhaps it would help if I observed that falling off the tandem is normal? Tandems are quite difficult to keep balanced until you get the knack.
I'm not sure that I can incorporate 45 years of experience of living with one person in just a few words anyway. Even if I could, there is no way of knowing that the lessons in love we've learned together would read across. It's been a rich and fulfilling adventure for us, with plenty of ups and downs and not a few tandem falls. We always found it within us to get back on the tandem again. Not all couples find they can do that.
... Looking not just to your own needs, but to the needs of your partner, is where the rubber hits the road in the journey towards unselfish loving....
Having just celebrated our 40th wedding anniversary, Mrs T and I agree with B62's wise words, not least the tandem analogy. Like riding a tandem, marriage is not easy but worth the effort because two people helping each other to go in one direction makes it easier for both of them. But the direction may not have been that which one of the partners had in mind initially, but which (s)he recognised as a real need of the other partner and adapted to that.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
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