Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Did God die on the Cross? Can God die?
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet: ... Nope, I think God transforms and doesn't interfere. We can well predict Jesus' demise, but not God setting him up for it. ...
No prophet I think you are ignoring perichoresis. It is impossible to separate the members of the Trinity as though the Father didn't somehow know or was not involved in, what was about to happen to Jesus.
That way also lies Arianism.
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
The heart of the Cross is forgiveness. And the point of forgiveness is that it is costly to the person who forgives. It is practically costly in the sense that the forgiver suffers himself the loss caused by the person needing forgiveness, and it is emotionally costly as well. The message is that Jesus suffered the forgiving cost of our sins, so that we don't have to.
Because of the Trinity this is not 'Cosmic child abuse' in the sense that the Father inflicts undeserved suffering on an innocent third party outside of the God/humanity relationship. (I always find this a problem with the Jehovah's Witnesses' unitarianism - that they seem quite happy to have an innocent third party suffer, which seems to depict God more as Scrooge or Shylock than loving Father. Traditional Unitarians also have problems with this, which is why after giving up the Trinity they have historically fudged the Atonement and then usually given up the Bible because applied in a Unitarian way it doesn't hang together at this point)
I think we often get confused by the different use of the word 'passion' here compared to the ancients. It may be appropriate in modern language to say God 'suffers', but the ancients would have said God didn't passively suffer, but rather that he actively gave himself - going back to my first para, that he actively pays the price when of course he had a choice not to (definition of mercy - the mercy-giver has the choice in the matter).
If God's thus forgiving involves Jesus' death on the Cross, yes God arranges it; but in Trinity that is self-giving love all round, not unfeeling on the Father's part. This is a bit of a sketch of the situation, which would deserve many pages to do justice to it!
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Steve Langton: And the point of forgiveness is that it is costly to the person who forgives.
Forgiveness is only costly in that the person who forgives gives up the right to recompense for whatever wrong was done to them. It also involves giving up or trying to give up on any internal anger and grudges. That takes effort, but it's beneficial to the forgiver to do so. The real point is that it results in restored relationships, or at least in resetting the tit-for-tat count on feuds to zero. That too is a benefit to the forgiver. (Neither of the above is a benefit to God, who doesn't hold internal anger and who would automatically win any feuds. What's going on in the atonement isn't God forgiving us; it's God restoring us, which only happens because God has already forgiven us.)
-------------------- we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Where in the 25 verses of Jude does it describe that? Does it describe Jesus preaching to the 'souls in hell', your paraphrase, of verse 6?
And did you mean I Peter 3:19? Not 2 Peter 2:4?
It's like a compulsion to tell the truth against your will isn't it? Like Balaam's ass.
Dafyd. I like that.
And Enoch. Well said. [ 15. March 2014, 23:35: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
-------------------- Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
Another issue has to do with the Resurrection and Ascension.
Whether or not God "died" on the Cross or not, when Jesus Christ entered into glory, his humanity was glorified, so his death and resurrection has entered the life of God.
-------------------- It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Anglican_Brat: Whether or not God "died" on the Cross or not, when Jesus Christ entered into glory, his humanity was glorified, so his death and resurrection has entered the life of God.
Yes, as will we all.
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
We know no such thing. We do know that human personality can cease before death - temporarily in sleep, let alone permanently in end stage Alzheimer's - and that it certainly does after death.
-------------------- Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Indeed. Not a problem leo. Neither is your take on it, which is a traditional one and God bless you in it and continue to work with you to bless from it. It just can't work for me at all as my reconciliation of all those references is more minimal, analytical in every way.
-------------------- Love wins
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: Indeed. Not a problem leo. Neither is your take on it, which is a traditional one and God bless you in it and continue to work with you to bless from it. It just can't work for me at all as my reconciliation of all those references is more minimal, analytical in every way.
I still struggle to see how you reconcile Christianity with disbelief in life after death. Or perhaps I'm misreading you?
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Enoch: quote: Originally posted by no prophet: ... Nope, I think God transforms and doesn't interfere. We can well predict Jesus' demise, but not God setting him up for it. ...
No prophet I think you are ignoring perichoresis. It is impossible to separate the members of the Trinity as though the Father didn't somehow know or was not involved in, what was about to happen to Jesus.
That way also lies Arianism.
I'm no theologian, but have some lay familiarity. The problem resides I think that if Jesus fully knew his fate and exactly what was to come, then he isn't human completely.
Imagine that I have cancer, and know the outcome of the cancer treatment before I get treated. Or even know my diagnosis before the doctors inform me about it. Am I fully human in that context with this divine knowledge? I don't think so. The pages of the book of my life turn, for me, as I live them, not as God might scan the the pages and write them for me chapters ahead.
I agree with you that we walk fine lines between various pitfalls, and at times of frustration, and intellectual weakness and frustration, default to the "mysteries of faith" and God's logic beyond human comprehension, as coloured by puny mortal life experience. However, I have been mediating on suffering for a good spell and it seems clear to me that lack of knowledge about what is going to happen next magnifies suffering. Pain is one thing, but knowing why and how strengthens the human resolve to bear with it. Thus to share fully in human suffering Jesus would have to not know the outcome. Death being a very probable one, but certain? That's a difficult one.
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Basilica. Of course I don't believe in an afterlife in death. What a bizarre, paradoxical idea! Are we talking zombies here?
-------------------- Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Garasu
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# 17152
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Basilica: I still struggle to see how you reconcile Christianity with disbelief in life after death.
We're promised eternal life rather than everlasting life?
-------------------- "Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
We have eternal, everlasting life now, it will continue ... forever. But certainly not whilst corpses!
-------------------- Love wins
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
In other words of course I believe in life AFTER death, just not in it.
-------------------- Love wins
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: I think it was Sabellianism that thought that God the Father died.
Sabellianism is the early version of modalism proposed by Sabellius. Since Sabellians believe that Jesus is God the Father, Sabellians are by definition patripassionists, but not all patripassionists are Sabellians.
-------------------- we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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