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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Who is leading whom?
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable
But then believing in the occult full stop is pretty silly and fanciful for 21st century people with access to science.
But science does not imply atheism.
I see no reason why Christians should assume or conclude that the works of darkness described in the Bible must be fantasy. If we think that science has disproven the existence of spiritual evil, then why not apply that understanding of science to the existence of God?
What is it about 21st century science that allows God to exist, but not the devil?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel
EE has answered your questions already, Jade Constable.
'The insistent opinions of strong-minded people are usually far removed from the voice of God.'
Actually I am trying to have a discussion. Like you said, I am entitled to my opinion.
If Jade wants to disagree with me, then fine.
Or are you suggesting that I am not allowed to express a point of view now, because it would appear as though I am claiming divine authority for it?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
No, but I am pulling your pisser.
And also suggesting that, like the rest of us, you should pay heed to your wise saying about people with strong opinions.
Strong opinions aren't wrong in and of themselves, but rigid and inflexible attitudes often undermine what might be seen as the work of God. To dogmatically and rigidly condemn MBTI on the grounds that it is supposed to have occult links - that's news to me, by the way - is to effectively attempt to undermine any good that MBTI might achieve.
As SCK has said, he feels he's benefitted from it.
I don't doubt that there are dark forces in operation. People running around with Kalashnikovs and strapping on suicide vests bother me a lot more than people with clip-boards, flip-charts and PowerPoint presentations about personality types ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel
To dogmatically and rigidly condemn MBTI on the grounds that it is supposed to have occult links - that's news to me, by the way - is to effectively attempt to undermine any good that MBTI might achieve.
Did you bother to read the article?
And yes, I do condemn it - not dogmatically, but on the basis of evidence. But why does it bother you? I am just an anonymous voice on the internet. If people want to disregard my point of view, they are free to do so.
But like you said: I am entitled to my opinion.
I think it is dangerous to pigeonhole people in terms of their personality type, because personality is far more subtle and nuanced than that kind of crude test can discern. Furthermore, it is very easy to justify all sorts of wrong attitudes - even evil actions - by appealing to one's personality type. I remember once at work someone justifying failing to fulfil an obligation to another member of staff by saying: "It's because I am 'right brain' and you are 'left brain', therefore stop having a go at me." That wasn't due to the MBTI specifically, but it was the same principle of pigeonholing people.
And in Christian ministry, all sorts of bad practices are justified by saying: "oh well, that is just Dave, or Chris or Sally. They can't help it..."
The only good I can see from these kind of tests is that perhaps in a very limited way, they may help us to appreciate that people are different and can respond in different ways to situations. But the point is that you only need to be about ten years old to work that simple fact out! It's so painfully obvious from the nature of reality, that you really do not need a heavy, intrusive personality test to tell you this. People are different? You don't say!
Furthermore, a vulnerable person can work through all the intrusive and often hypothetical questions of a personality test ("what would you do if you saw Granny running naked down the street?" Etc etc...) and then those who have set themselves up as the administrators of the test ask certain personal - and leading - questions on the basis of the person's responses to the earlier questions. The vulnerable person has already had his mind moved in a certain direction in terms of his perception of himself, and then others are able to subtly drop ideas in his mind that reinforce what could be a totally false view of himself and his place within reality. I've seen it happen! In fact, without wanting to divulge too much about myself, I will say that I am living with the destructive consequences of this practice. I've seen people's personalities change for the worse, as a result of this psychological manipulation. So yes, I condemn it.
And if you think that it's simply a matter of clipboards and flip-charts, then you don't understand the power of psychology. How many people have been slung in prison due to false accusations resulting from clever counsellors asking vulnerable people leading questions? How many relationships have been destroyed by clipboards and questionnaires etc? Perhaps you don't recognise the power of words and thoughts? In fact, all wars begin somewhere in someone's warped mind. So your "sticks and stones" approach to this subject is rather naive, to put it mildly!
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, of course these personality profile things can be abused. So can anything else.
Your experience of these things has been negative. SCK's has been positive. Horses for courses.
I'm not being naive, simply stating my 'take' on these things as you have stated your views on them.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel
I don't doubt that there are dark forces in operation. People running around with Kalashnikovs and strapping on suicide vests bother me a lot more than people with clip-boards, flip-charts and PowerPoint presentations about personality types ...
Talking about "suicide vests"... why do people become suicide bombers? It is because they have been radicalised, and this is a psychological programme of manipulation based on guilt, fear and accusation, in which the person is led to believe that he is falling short of obedience to God, and must rectify that by proving himself sufficiently sacrificial. It is brainwashing.
If psychology can have no or minimal harmful effect on people, as your "clipboard and flip-chart" quip seems to suggest, then we will not need to worry about "suicide vests".
Destroy the root and the branches will take care of themselves.
[ 20. March 2014, 13:59: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure the Taliban use MBTI to determine which of them is most likely to don a suicide vest ...
Sure, psychology can be abused. We all know that. MBTI can be abused, we all know that.
The scriptures can be abused and taken out of context. We all know that too.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Dang! I've broken my Lenten resolve ...
I will redouble my efforts for the remainder.
Shame you didn't break your Lenten resolve yesterday. The Feast of St. Joseph would have given you some wiggle room if you aren't a purist. You aren't. Now, Tuesday is the Feast of the Annunciation. However, because you've already broken your Lenten resolve on a weekday in Lent, you may not interact with EE until Easter. To do so now will harm you spiritually just as sure as taking the MBTI.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Perhaps if I interact with EE between now and Easter AND undertake some MBTI analysis at the same time ...
I am doomed to eternal perdition ...
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
There's more chance of the former rather than the latter, although I have done the MBTI thing in the past. Perhaps I've picked up some spiritual lurgy from it which can only be purged by constant agreement with everything EE writes ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, of course these personality profile things can be abused. So can anything else.
Your experience of these things has been negative. SCK's has been positive. Horses for courses.
I've refused to take part in MBTI tests on a couple of occasions: such action has come as somewhat of a surprise to those running the tests. It's not so much the Jungian basis for it as my reluctance to be pigeonholed as a "personality type" as opposed to a person.
Mind you, the people running both events didn't help. They seemed to play the amateur psychologist role far too quickly - I don't respond at all to people who angle their head to one side and ask me to describe my feelings ..... despite assurances to the contrary they're assuming a role and tbh one which they are really unqualified for.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, psychology can be abused. We all know that. MBTI can be abused, we all know that.
But MBTI is not based on worthwhile psychology. Its fundamentaly flawed, cobbled together out of bits of real science, fake science, and anecdote. Also most people who use it don;t understand the theory behind it - and that theory is self-contradictory anyway. Snake oil. Or at least contaminated with snake oil.
Its not utter total baseless bollocks like enneagrams, or biodynamics, or homeopathy - anyone who claims to believe in them is either ignorant or lying - but it has huge gaps in it. It can be fun, but its on the level of a parlour game, not psychology.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Also, I'm not positing a binary distinction between mysticism and contemplation and activism and interventionism - if that's the right term.
We need both.
They should complement each other.
As you've implied, I suppose they already do. Some people lean one way, and some another. Some mix up a little speaking in tongues with a penchant for Gregorian chant, etc.
Yet you often seem to be rather concerned about what other Christians do. If we all complement each other so well then what is there to be concerned about? Maybe you think the overall balance is somehow wrong - too many Christians looking for signs and wonders, and not enough happy just to pray and muddle along? I don't know what counts as 'too many' and 'not enough', though.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, psychology can be abused. We all know that. MBTI can be abused, we all know that.
But MBTI is not based on worthwhile psychology. Its fundamentaly flawed, cobbled together out of bits of real science, fake science, and anecdote. Also most people who use it don;t understand the theory behind it - and that theory is self-contradictory anyway. Snake oil. Or at least contaminated with snake oil.
Its not utter total baseless bollocks like enneagrams, or biodynamics, or homeopathy - anyone who claims to believe in them is either ignorant or lying - but it has huge gaps in it. It can be fun, but its on the level of a parlour game, not psychology.
Aren't enneagrams just another personality test like MBTI? I've done enneagrams before and it was just like MBTI with fewer personality types. Not seeing the connection between them and things like homeopathy.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Re MBTI - I have only done the online tests. I can see that being led through it by people might be odd and I don't think I would particularly enjoy that. Being a particular MBTI type doesn't stop you from being an individual either. I know a few people with my type but we are still different people, we just have particular personality traits in common. It doesn't take a lot of time to see, as Miss Marple would say, that human nature is the same everywhere and that certain personality types and behaviours are repeated.
It seems quite natural to me to differentiate between extroverts and introverts, between analytical types and creative types, etc etc. To base a personality test on that also seems perfectly reasonable. I certainly haven't known anyone who uses their type to say 'you can't blame me for XYZ, because I'm this type'. Maybe you just know some very immature people, EE ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Re the occult, I do find it rather difficult to believe in any kind of powerful devil or demon and also believe in an all-loving, all-powerful God. Even if some kind of devil exists in the spiritual realm, I don't believe that humans have any power to summon them or use Satanic power. Such things belong in silly melodramatic horror films and are not real. Attributing occult 'power' is as silly as attributing occult 'power' to yoga.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@SvitlanaV2, perhaps I am concerned about what other Christians do ... I dunno. I'm not the only one here who does that, though, Steve Langton and I have been having an exchange on that very issue on another thread ... where he seems concerned that Christians are apparently happy to remain in what he sees as 'Christendom' style churches ...
But I take your point. I'm not overly concerned in real life, though, about what people may or may not get up to in church services.
I am wary, though, of overly pietistic and super-spiritual reactions when it comes to issues like divine guidance and so on. I s'pose I've seen a fair bit of nonsense in my time.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
The insistent opinions of strong-minded people are usually far removed from the voice of God.
That's a good quote. We'd all do well to heed it. You included.
I agree, and see it as a very important point here. There's a huge difference between a group humbly seeking the will of God and working together in Christian love and co-operation, incorporating all personality types along the way, which seems to be the way we're pointed by our religion, and a group of individuals diving into the mud wrestling ring of politics and status, vying for position and influence, using methods of management which the secular world embraces, including that of pigeon-holing people according to assessed 'personality types', which might pay little more than lip service to God's will. Prayers are not always included.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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