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Source: (consider it) Thread: St Patrick Day is Irish American, not Irish?
Anglican_Brat
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Happy St Paddy's Day! A friend told me that most cultural customs associated with today has to do with Irish American culture (Boston and New York), and not with the culture of Ireland, itself.

Was St Patrick's Day historically celebrated in Ireland just by people attending Mass as a Memorial?

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Crœsos
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Some traditions are more recent than others.

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lapsed heathen

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Growing up Paddy's day was celebrated by going to mass, wearing a sprig of shamrock and as it was both a holy day and bank holiday, visiting relatives.
Their would be a parade in the larger towns, mostly consisting of a few tractors, the fire brigade and some unfortunate majorettes in inappropriate cloths* marching in front of a brass or pipe band.
It's only this century that we have embraced the full carnival aspect and spread the celebrations over a weekend.

*What edjit decided to have our national day in March of many weathers?

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Happy St Paddy's Day! A friend told me that most cultural customs associated with today has to do with Irish American culture (Boston and New York), and not with the culture of Ireland, itself.

Similarly, I'm given to understand the Cinco de Mayo is a bigger thing in US than in Mexico, for similar reasons.

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Stetson
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Here's the website for the St. Patrick's Festival In Dublin, which includes a parade.

I don't know if this is something they picked up from the Americans, or if they've been doing it forever and the Yanks copied them. At a cursory glance, the Dublin festivities would seem to be perhaps a little less "stage Irish" than what I associate with the American versions.

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mousethief

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Of course you don't have to be "stage Irish" if you really are Irish.

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Happy St Paddy's Day! A friend told me that most cultural customs associated with today has to do with Irish American culture (Boston and New York), and not with the culture of Ireland, itself.

Similarly, I'm given to understand the Cinco de Mayo is a bigger thing in US than in Mexico, for similar reasons.
Both are extremely popular with people outside the target ethnicity, as well. Probably because, clever as they are, the Irish and Mexicans made drinking beer a big part of their respective holidays.

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fletcher christian

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Posted by Anglican Brat:
quote:

Happy St Paddy's Day! A friend told me that most cultural customs associated with today has to do with Irish American culture (Boston and New York), and not with the culture of Ireland, itself.

I am quite sure that it would be possible to find some bag head out there who will feel competent to argue that the Eucharist in memoriam of Saint Patrick was celebrated first in the good old USA, but it might be a little difficult considering that he has been a national saint with a saints day marked since the early Medieval period. But there is always one!
Parades have also been a major feature of Saint Patrick's Day, although it has waned through poverty stricken periods. Some argue it began with parades to the Eucharist or to the burial site/shrine/church etc. However, its worth noting Ireland had a habit of parading saints relics/remains with great aplomb - not all that uncommon in Medieval Europe to be honest. The other notable period of parades was during the Georgian period right through to the early 1900's which sometimes involve clashing between the Ancient Order of Hibernians and the Ireland For All Scottish pipe bands (it's complicated...don't ask).

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
At a cursory glance, the Dublin festivities would seem to be perhaps a little less "stage Irish" than what I associate with the American versions.

That might be because the Irish in Ireland are Irish and the Irish in America are American.

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Mockingbird

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Happy St Paddy's Day! A friend told me that most cultural customs associated with today has to do with Irish American culture (Boston and New York), and not with the culture of Ireland, itself.

Beannachtaí na Féile Pádraig agaibh!. (I think the Irish made up that phrase just so that we Americans would have something to say on this day. Very courteous).

St. Patrick was, of course, an American by birth. He was born at what is now the campus-town of Cornell University. The neighborhood's old Latin name was Bannavem Taburniae which means "Pub crawl through nine taverns."
[Big Grin]
I've always liked this passage from St. Patrick's Confession. It describes an incident that occurred after he escaped slavery in Ireland and was trying to get home to Albany, New York:
quote:
Et post triduum terram cepimus, etc. And after three days we came to land. And we wandered for twenty-eight days through a wilderness, and their food ran out, and hunger overcame them. And the next day their captain began to say to me, "What do you say, Christian ? Isn't your god great and almighty ? Why can't you pray for us, since we're perishing with hunger ? For it looks as though we aren't likely ever to find any people." So I said openly to them, "Be turned with all your heart and faith to the Lord our God. For nothing is impossible with him; so that today he will send food into your path, so much that you'll be full. For all things are his." And by God's help, it was so. For a flock of swine appeared on the trail right in front of our eyes. And they slew many of them, and stayed there for two nights well-refreshed. And their dogs were revived; for many of them were weakened, and wandered from the trail half-dead. And after this they gave great thanks to God, and I was honored in their eyes.



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Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

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Ronald Binge
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Corned Beef, Green beer, calling it St Patty's Day, banning LGBT groups from parades and disso scumbags insulting members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland in the NYC parade?

These are things safely left in the US with the rest of the cartoon and monocultural version of Irish identity that is Irish-America.

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Anglican_Brat
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This article is apt:

Why I don't celebrate St Paddy's

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fletcher christian

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There is truth mixed up with a lot of factual errors in that article and the linked ones - too many to list. I tend to see it like any other public holiday; Christmas is a good example. Lip service is paid to the nature of the feast, but taking out loans to pay for presents was never a part of the original feast, nor is the draping of houses in flashing coloured lights. Things change, develop, become commercial ventures, secular public holidays and an excuse to get pissed for some.

The 'spreading' of St Patrick's Day throughout the world is - if I look at it cynically - an opportunity for free advertising for Bord Failte.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
This article is apt:

Why I don't celebrate St Paddy's

Perhaps apt but poorly researched.

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Bullfrog.

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I've had the impression that in Chicago, St Patrick's Day was partly a chance for the Irish majority to show their political strength, with the mayor himself presiding in all his glory and pomp.

Nowadays, I think it's just an excuse to get plastered while wearing green because tradition says so.

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lilBuddha
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The bigotry and ignorance of this post
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Corned Beef, Green beer, calling it St Patty's Day, banning LGBT groups from parades and disso scumbags insulting members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland in the NYC parade?

These are things safely left in the US with the rest of the cartoon and monocultural version of Irish identity that is Irish-America.

is misplaced, but understandable.

The message in the article linked in this post
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
This article is apt:

Why I don't celebrate St Paddy's

less so.

The celebrations in America are in part, reflections of the oppression felt by Irish immigrants in their arrival in America and for long after. The culture was attacked. And it was suppressed, both from outside and inside. Many immigrants to the US suppressed their own background, desiring to blend in. Education was less accessible to early immigrants, how were they to learn of the auld country when they could not even learn of the one they were in?
Celebrations became enthusiastic to show pride in that which was disdained.
The author of the article complains Americans do not understand the history of what they are celebrating without himself understanding the why of the celebration.

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lilBuddha
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The bigotry and ignorance of this post
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Corned Beef, Green beer, calling it St Patty's Day, banning LGBT groups from parades and disso scumbags insulting members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland in the NYC parade?

These are things safely left in the US with the rest of the cartoon and monocultural version of Irish identity that is Irish-America.

is misplaced, but understandable.

ETA: Not at all defending the Dead Horse issue, but here is not the place for that.

The message in the article linked in this post
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
This article is apt:

Why I don't celebrate St Paddy's

less so.

The celebrations in America are in part, reflections of the oppression felt by Irish immigrants in their arrival in America and for long after. The culture was attacked. And it was suppressed, both from outside and inside. Many immigrants to the US suppressed their own background, desiring to blend in. Education was less accessible to early immigrants, how were they to learn of the auld country when they could not even learn of the one they were in?
Celebrations became enthusiastic to show pride in that which was disdained.
The author of the article complains Americans do not understand the history of what they are celebrating without himself understanding the why of the celebration.

Apologies, wrong click.

[ 18. March 2014, 18:28: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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Crœsos
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Given that Saint Patrick was almost certainly not Irish himself, I'm not all that concerned that celebrations in his honor aren't "authentically Irish".

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Ronald Binge
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The bigotry and ignorance of this post
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Corned Beef, Green beer, calling it St Patty's Day, banning LGBT groups from parades and disso scumbags insulting members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland in the NYC parade?

These are things safely left in the US with the rest of the cartoon and monocultural version of Irish identity that is Irish-America.

is misplaced, but understandable.

The message in the article linked in this post
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
This article is apt:

Why I don't celebrate St Paddy's

less so.

The celebrations in America are in part, reflections of the oppression felt by Irish immigrants in their arrival in America and for long after. The culture was attacked. And it was suppressed, both from outside and inside. Many immigrants to the US suppressed their own background, desiring to blend in. Education was less accessible to early immigrants, how were they to learn of the auld country when they could not even learn of the one they were in?
Celebrations became enthusiastic to show pride in that which was disdained.
The author of the article complains Americans do not understand the history of what they are celebrating without himself understanding the why of the celebration.

Do a google for the nest of ignorance that is AOH Brooklyn before chucking shillelaghs at an actual Irishman living in modern Ireland, thanks.

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Wilfried
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

The celebrations in America are in part, reflections of the oppression felt by Irish immigrants in their arrival in America and for long after. The culture was attacked. And it was suppressed, both from outside and inside. Many immigrants to the US suppressed their own background, desiring to blend in. Education was less accessible to early immigrants, how were they to learn of the auld country when they could not even learn of the one they were in?
Celebrations became enthusiastic to show pride in that which was disdained.
The author of the article complains Americans do not understand the history of what they are celebrating without himself understanding the why of the celebration.
Apologies, wrong click.

Whatever the history of Irish oppression and it's connection to St. Patrick's Day, they have been mostly lost in American culture, and certainly to the vast majority of the throngs of drunken revelers on 5th Ave. yesterday. The critique that the day has degenerated into an excuse for drunken debauchery and a celebration of kitchy caricatures of bits of Irish culture seems pretty apt, especially if what you say are it's origins are true.
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Ronald Binge
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Here's a good critique from one of Slugger O'Toole's writers about how AOH-style Irish America is way off beam regarding modern Ireland.

Get on board with modern Ireland or get out of the way

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mousethief

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In what way are these benighted diasporites "in the way"?

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Do a google for the nest of ignorance that is AOH Brooklyn before chucking shillelaghs at an actual Irishman living in modern Ireland, thanks.

From the article you link:
quote:
I don’t wish to generalise and say that this is the way all Irish Americans think
(Though he does ignore his own words)
I'll not claim to be an expert, but I'd lay odds that most Irish-Americans have no clue as to the AOH existence, much less any idea of their policies.
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
The critique that the day has degenerated into an excuse for drunken debauchery and a celebration of kitchy caricatures of bits of Irish culture seems pretty apt, especially if what you say are it's origins are true.

Were you aware that for near 70 years pubs and bars in Ireland were closed on 17 March? Why? Because the Irish drinking got out of hand.
Americans do tend to binge drink, they do. But Ireland and the UK drink far more per capita and not without a problem or two hundred.

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Ronald Binge
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Yup. As remarked earlier, I live here in Ireland so would have a good idea of the cultural history of my own country. Bin the patronisation, thanks.

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fletcher christian

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posted by mousethief:
quote:

In what way are these benighted diasporites "in the way"?

I think the writer of the article means that in the sense of the hanging on to old political division while most who actually live in Ireland have moved on.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Yup. As remarked earlier, I live here in Ireland so would have a good idea of the cultural history of my own country. Bin the patronisation, thanks.

The history was for Wilfried who, by location, appears to be American.
I have not been patronising, I save that for other boards, generally.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Ronald Binge
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by mousethief:
quote:

In what way are these benighted diasporites "in the way"?

I think the writer of the article means that in the sense of the hanging on to old political division while most who actually live in Ireland have moved on.
There is also a dismal history of certain Irish Americans giving support to "the cause", even when the majority of the players have moved on. See my suggested Google of AOH Brooklyn for an uncritical analysis of the very minority and unelectable dissident republican position.

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lilBuddha
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So I Googled. The AOH have 80,000 members in America. Which is 15% of the number of Irish Americans in New York alone. And .2% of the Americans claiming Irish decent.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Stetson
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Ronald Binge wrote:

quote:
There is also a dismal history of certain Irish Americans giving support to "the cause", even when the majority of the players have moved on.
By "the cause", do you mean the IRA? And, if so, is that the same group of which Sinn Fein was generally regarded as being the political wing?

Because, if so, Sinn Fein has consistently garnered a quarter of the vote in Northern Ireland since 2003, and was around 15% before that. Not a majority, obviously, but still pretty good for a group supposedly consisting only of fringe characters supported by no one except Boston paymasters who are clueless about Ireland.

[ 18. March 2014, 23:42: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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LutheranChik
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Just a sidebar note that the stars of our local pre-St. Pat's Irish Festival parade were bagpipers who played "Scotland the Brave" as they marched down the street. But it's the thought that counts.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by mousethief:
quote:

In what way are these benighted diasporites "in the way"?

I think the writer of the article means that in the sense of the hanging on to old political division while most who actually live in Ireland have moved on.
Ah. In other words, he doesn't know what "in the way" means. Not surprising given the rest of the article.

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fletcher christian

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In the sense that support was still being given to things like NORAID (with questions being asked as to what exactly the money was spent on) and the peculiar propaganda that suggested the children of the Republic were being oppressed by the British at a time when the actual number of British citizens living in the Republic was not even big enough to fill a one street village. Even today I am amazed at tourists from the States who ask in all innocence, 'When will the Church of Ireland give the two Dublin Cathedrals back to the irish?', or, 'We hear that good Catholic children are subjected to the horrors of Protestant schooling here.' Sometimes I wonder if, when they venture into the wilds, d they still expect to see a Catholic priest and his flock gathered around a mass rock.

Ideas, both political and cultural that are based on utter ignorance can 'get in the way' of what Ireland is really like in many ways. It also, I am sure, gets in the way when the ignorant fund 'a cause' they know nothing about, yet if terrorism takes place on their own soil their level of tolerance seems understandably low.

But maybe you meant something else? Is there an Americanism I have missed?

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Ronald Binge
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Thank you Fletcher Christian for that. You have spelled out exactly what I tried to communicate but obviously failed to do.

The relevance of the AOH to the NYC parade is that they organise it, so their analysis and definition of Irish identity is the biggest factor in it.

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Stetson
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Fletcher Christian wrote:

quote:
In the sense that support was still being given to things like NORAID (with questions being asked as to what exactly the money was spent on) and the peculiar propaganda that suggested the children of the Republic were being oppressed by the British at a time when the actual number of British citizens living in the Republic was not even big enough to fill a one street village. Even today I am amazed at tourists from the States who ask in all innocence, 'When will the Church of Ireland give the two Dublin Cathedrals back to the irish?', or, 'We hear that good Catholic children are subjected to the horrors of Protestant schooling here.' Sometimes I wonder if, when they venture into the wilds, d they still expect to see a Catholic priest and his flock gathered around a mass rock.

Yes, but again, as I pointed out above, people like Gerry Adams, who were the benficiaries of NORAID support, have achived relatively high degrees of success in the democratic politics of Northern Ireland. And I would wager that the people who currently vote Sinn Fein in NI are not all deluded American tourists.

Frankly, the focus on Irish-American contributions to the IRA always sort of reminded me of white Americans who complained that racial unrest was just a matter of "those Commies in Moscow stirring up our colored folk". I'm sure Moscow gave whatever support it could(via the CPUSA) to African American struggles. However, I'm also pretty sure that blacks would have been pretty unhappy with white America, Moscow or no Moscow.

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Ronald Binge
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It's not the mainstream Irish Republican movement represented by Sinn Fein which is part of the Northern Ireland government and endorses the Police Service of Northern Ireland, we're talking about but those who have killed Catholic members of the police in the North in recent years, the so-called dissident republicans who are given aid by those in the States who reject the peace process.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Ideas, both political and cultural that are based on utter ignorance can 'get in the way' of what Ireland is really like in many ways. It also, I am sure, gets in the way when the ignorant fund 'a cause' they know nothing about, yet if terrorism takes place on their own soil their level of tolerance seems understandably low.

But maybe you meant something else? Is there an Americanism I have missed?

I'll not defend the funding of terrorism and I do think tourists should have a little knowledge of their destination. However, what percentage of Americans are we speaking of? My objection on this thread was the very large brush strokes being painted with, not specific allegations. The dismissive attitude shown irked. I understand the frustrations of people embracing a caricature of one's culture rather than attempting a true understanding, it is annoying and frustrating. However, I would not charge an entire group with the sins of a few.

As for the terrorist funding, here is a more balanced view than those linked so far.

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lilBuddha
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It is this bit which might have got in the way.
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
monocultural version of Irish identity that is Irish-America.

I cannot speak for your travels through America, but mine have been through a large bit. And my experience tells me they do not fit the less-than-nuanced view many Europeans have.
Fuck the AOH and their anti-LGBT stance? Right behind you carrying a banner. Fuck all Irish-Americans? Don't believe they all fit that mold. Rarely do all of any group.

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Stetson
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Ronald Binge wrote:

quote:
It's not the mainstream Irish Republican movement represented by Sinn Fein which is part of the Northern Ireland government and endorses the Police Service of Northern Ireland
Well, Fletcher said that NORAID is part of the problem. And NORAID supported Gerry Adams back in his armed-resistance days. And Gerry Adams is one of those republicans you mention who is part of Sinn Fein and the Northern Ireland government.

So yes, as far as I can tell, the people who vote for Sinn Fein are endorsing the same political party that was endorsed by the supposedly deluded Irish-Americans in NORAID.

An article by a NORAID member. Gerry Adams is descrined as sending fraternal greetings to one of their meetings.

[ 19. March 2014, 15:04: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is this bit which might have got in the way.
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
monocultural version of Irish identity that is Irish-America.

I cannot speak for your travels through America, but mine have been through a large bit. And my experience tells me they do not fit the less-than-nuanced view many Europeans have.
Fuck the AOH and their anti-LGBT stance? Right behind you carrying a banner. Fuck all Irish-Americans? Don't believe they all fit that mold. Rarely do all of any group.

In cultural terms, Irish American identity is presented as a mono-culture when it is no such thing. Aside from the so-called Scotch-Irish, there were pre-famine cohorts which were more religiously and socially diverse than the post-famine urban RC wave. Rural settlements of Ohio and Indiana and in Georgia had their own colouring and never really fit into the AOH mold. And, of course, the first African American RC bishop was a Healy of Roscommon.

In urban areas, the high intermarriage rate with African Americans in the Victorian period was a phenomenon which few seemed to wish to dwell upon.

When I was a student in Dublin in the 1970s, St Patrick's Day was more of a religious holiday, with staff being given a half-day to go to Mass, and RC schools normally attended services held on premises. The parade was primarily composed of Irish Americans, who were the object of the puzzled attention of Dubliners, many of whom were focussing on the majorettes bravely wearing short skirts in the wet March weather of the Liffey. My Irish friends tell me that it has taken on a more North American character in recent years, with less of the flavour of a day of obligation.

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Stetson
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Augustine wrote:

quote:
The parade was primarily composed of Irish Americans, who were the object of the puzzled attention of Dubliners, many of whom were focussing on the majorettes bravely wearing short skirts in the wet March weather of the Liffey.
A Scottish friend of mine once told me about a comedy-show skit on Scottish TV, about a pair of Canadian backpackers who go to a pub in Scotland and sit around yelling to the locals about how Scottish they are.

Stage-Scottish being kind of the Canadian equivalent of America's stage-Irish.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Augustine wrote:

quote:
The parade was primarily composed of Irish Americans, who were the object of the puzzled attention of Dubliners, many of whom were focussing on the majorettes bravely wearing short skirts in the wet March weather of the Liffey.
A Scottish friend of mine once told me about a comedy-show skit on Scottish TV, about a pair of Canadian backpackers who go to a pub in Scotland and sit around yelling to the locals about how Scottish they are.

Stage-Scottish being kind of the Canadian equivalent of America's stage-Irish.

o I well believe that it was more a documentary report than a comedy-show skit. However, owing to -43°C temperatures and strong breezes, kilts never caught on here.
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fletcher christian

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posted by Stetson:
quote:

Well, Fletcher said that NORAID is part of the problem. And NORAID supported Gerry Adams back in his armed-resistance days. And Gerry Adams is one of those republicans you mention who is part of Sinn Fein and the Northern Ireland government.

So yes, as far as I can tell, the people who vote for Sinn Fein are endorsing the same political party that was endorsed by the supposedly deluded Irish-Americans in NORAID.

An article by a NORAID member. Gerry Adams is descrined as sending fraternal greetings to one of their meetings.

I think what you are doing is confusing a number of issues and complicating others that were (at one time at least) a bit of a hornet's nest. Northern Ireland politics are in no way comparable to the politics of the Republic. For a start, it's a different state, but secondly it has it's own odd and muddled history. You have to remember that SF's involvement in the Good Friday Agreement for instance, lent them an air of credibility and they did make certain concessions to peace which made them a votable and electable party. They have, however, rejected terrorism and violence as a means of political involvement and change. You might poo-hoo that (as many still do), but many have decided to take that at face value. Personally I have little time for them, but I still live in a democracy, but just because people vote democratically does not always mean that we can know for certain what their motivation was in doing so. At the time that SF held power there were two important considerations; firstly, the polarisation of society and political entrenchment and secondly, the notion that politics had to move forward in the North which meant that some voted for the two extreme parties with the attitude of 'I am going to make damn sure through my vote that these bastards have to sit in a room together and talk it out'. Of course, there were other things going on too, politics being politics and all.

But to say that because SF get a proportion of the vote in Northern Ireland's executive parliamentary elections and therefore this must be the feeling of the a significant grouping in Ireland in regards to how they understand republicanism and self identity is to completely misunderstand the complexities of an island divided between two states with two parallel histories.

[ 19. March 2014, 15:55: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]

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fletcher christian

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posted by LilBud:
quote:

I'll not defend the funding of terrorism and I do think tourists should have a little knowledge of their destination. However, what percentage of Americans are we speaking of? My objection on this thread was the very large brush strokes being painted with, not specific allegations. The dismissive attitude shown irked. I understand the frustrations of people embracing a caricature of one's culture rather than attempting a true understanding, it is annoying and frustrating. However, I would not charge an entire group with the sins of a few.

Well, it's just as well that I hadn't charged the many with the sins of the few then isn't it! Being 'amazed at tourists who ask' was not meant to infer that every tourist asks. I'm not a fool, I know it doesn't represent the entire population of the United States of America. I will say though, in all the time I have lived here we are talking about too many to count. Granted, a lot of American tourists visit here, not all of them ask stupid questions; but many do. Just saying.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Well, it's just as well that I hadn't charged the many with the sins of the few then isn't it!

No, Mr. Christian, you did not. That charge appeared to be laid by Ronald Binge, though.
As to the ignorant American abroad, I did not believe the stereotype of the speak loud and slow and everyone will understand existed in reality until my father pointed some out. Just as the Brits behaving badly is real, it is not everyone.
We don't notice the people going about their business quietly.
And I would suggest that part of this list's rankings are attributable to gross numbers rather than percentage behaviour.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I understand the frustrations of people embracing a caricature of one's culture rather than attempting a true understanding, it is annoying and frustrating. However, I would not charge an entire group with the sins of a few.

It's deliciously ironic. Or maybe the word is "hypocritical."

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