|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Did Judas repent?
|
pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
|
Posted
Further to the above:
Eutychus commented:
quote:
The question of just how or where Judas died is a vexed one if you look at the Gospels and Acts closely enough.
Attempts are made later in the thread to harmonise the gut-spilling and the hanging accounts, with comical frankness or questionable taste depending on what side of the bed you got out of this morning (I've been guilty myself of both - just sayin'...)
Any attempt at harmonisation has to be pure conjecture - but we're allowed intelligent guesses - this ain't Keryg! It's possible that the gut-spilling was the cause, rather than the effect, of the hanging, the latter being a desperate attempt to escape from an unbearable degree of pain.
It is also possible that any such illness would have confirmed suspicions of Judas's betrayal -or even have initiated them. The first account of the betrayal is quite sketchily recorded. The story grows barnacles, as does the devilish character of Judas himself, which continues to increase the length of his forked tail throughout the early centuries of christendom.
What we start with is the fact that when Judas returns to the disciples (we have to wait several decades and three more gospels to discover on what errand) the soldiers are with him. The disciples run away, because they are afraid.
Before moving on from Eutychus's post, I'd like to quote his following sentence to the quote aboe:
quote:
I don't think suicide puts him beyond the pale [answering my second question] but I am a bit worried by Jesus calling him the "son of perdition" {quoted with great relish by Leo the Great) and Peter saying he has gone "where he belongs."
So am I.
HCH writes "The notion that Judas was murdered, not a suicide, is provocative but seems unlikely"
I apologise if you think the provocation came from me. I have never posited the option of murder. Not that the (other) guilt-ridden disciples hadn't considered it (see Chapter 21 of John's gospel). Now that is provocative!
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
|
Posted
But does that make me a Troll? I hope not. I'll make one more attempt to keep this discussion going, jumping ahead to my fourth question - whether atonement and retribution might have been confused in the minds of the early church -
SAINT LEO THE GREAT (d.461)
The Passion (excerpt)
The Lord undertook that which he chose according to the purpose of His own will. He permitted madmen to lay their wicked hands upon him: hands which, in ministering to their own doom, were of service to the redeemer’s work. And yet so great was his loving compassion for even His murderers, that he prayed to the Father on the cross, and begged not for His own vengeance, but for their forgiveness, saying: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And such was the power of that prayer that the hearts of many of those who had said, “His blood be on us and on our sons”, were turned to penitence by the apostle Peter’s preaching, and on one day there were baptised about three thousand Jews and they all were “of one heart and of one soul”, being ready now to die for Him whose crucifixion they had demanded.
[Note to those who claim that the gospels were only referring to the Jewish authorities when the cry of “Crucify him!” went up. It must have been a pretty well-populated Establishment.] Leo continues:
To this forgiveness the traitor Judas could not attain; for he, the son of perdition, at whose right hand the devil stood, gave himself up to despair before Christ accomplished the mystery of universal redemption. For in that the Lord died for sinners, perhaps even he might have found salvation if he had not hastened to hang himself. But that evil heart, which was now given up to thievish frauds, and now busied with treacherous designs, had never accepted anything of the proofs of the Saviour’s mercy. Those wicked ears had heard the Lord’s words when He said, “I came not to call the righteous but sinners”, and “the Son of Man came to seek and to save that which was lost”. But they conveyed not to his understanding the clemency of Christ, which not only healed bodily infirmities, but also cured the wounds of sick souls, saying to the paralytic man, “Son, be of good cheer, thy sins are forgiven thee; saying also to the adulteress that was brought to Him, “neither will I condemn thee; go and sin no more”, to show in all His works that He had come as the saviour, not the judge of the world.
But the wicked traitor refused to understand this, and took measures upon himself, not in the self-condemnation of repentance, but in the madness of perdition, and thus he who had sold the author of his life to His murderers, even in dying increased the amount of sin which condemned him.
“perhaps even he might have found salvation…” It’s a big “perhaps”. How could he atone to one he thought was dead? And is it credible that, had he thrown himself upon the mercy of the church, that body would have acted with the mercy of Christ? As far as Peter was concerned, even lying to the Holy Spirit was worthy of capital punishment – witness his treatment of Ananias and Sapphira. What chance would Judas have stood against the wrath of the avenging church? Leo was writing in the same century that the Patriarch of Alexandria was hell-bent on the eradication of heresy, and had already expelled the Jews wholesale. No, what Leo would have wanted was not Judas redeemed and reconciled, but Judas roasted. And for the next thousand years and more, frustrated Christians visited on those whom Peter had terrified in his guilt-ridden sermon the revenge that Judas, in his understandable despair, had cheated them of.
Maybe I'm being as hasty as Leo himself. A lot depends, I suppose, on when Judas did or didn't kill himself. In Matthew's gospel there is no doubt that Judas repented, and tried to give the money back bwecause it was blood money obtained for the life of an innocent man. That doesn't sound like pure remorse to me - if that wasn't the beginning of sdomething like an act of atonement, WTF was Leo looking for? And was Jesus approachable? What though all the disciples had deserted him, I imagine Judas would have been putting his life in danger if he tried to intervene in the process - something Peter wasn't prepared to do.
--------------------
In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
How could he atone to one he thought was dead?
Short answer: No one, not Judas and not us, atones to Jesus for anything. The most we can do is ask for mercy. There's no way of making up for sin.
Judas' action in trying to return the money I read as a desperate last-minute attempt to reverse what he had set in motion--notice the emphasis on innocent blood. Judas is half-mad with his guilt, is trying desperately to find the "delete key" for his action, and when the authorities coolly remind him that there is no possibility of undoing it, he flings the money on the floor and goes out in despair to kill himself. There is no sense at all of either atonement or seeking grace--nothing but a desperate attempt to turn back time, and then harsh justice self-administered and untempered by the mercy Jesus or the disciples would have shown him.
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
And is it credible that, had he thrown himself upon the mercy of the church, that body would have acted with the mercy of Christ? As far as Peter was concerned, even lying to the Holy Spirit was worthy of capital punishment – witness his treatment of Ananias and Sapphira. What chance would Judas have stood against the wrath of the avenging church?
Pimple, you're citing Leo, who came several centuries after the earliest disciples. That's a long, long time. Judas would not have been dealing with the likes of Leo, but rather with the likes of Peter, who had himself denied Christ and perhaps in consequence was very mild in what he said about Judas--in Acts 1, only that "he went to his own place."
I am not aware of any first or second century sources where Judas is vilified in the sense of "you nasty creature, we would never have done what you did!" In the New Testament itself, a shroud of decent silence is placed over what Judas did. I don't think Paul refers to him once, and the others only in Acts 1, that very mild mention.
The earliest disciples were all too aware that what was done to Jesus, was done by all humanity--by themselves as well. They ran away, they deserted him in the garden, they stayed away from the cross while he suffered, they didn't even claim his body (that was left for Nicodemus and Joseph to do). And then, against all hope, they received mercy and forgiveness and restoration in the resurrection of Jesus, who still loved them.
It is extremely hard to condemn another sinner when you are so close to the event that your own guilty role in it is ever before your eyes. It is even harder to condemn another sinner when you yourself have received such shining forgiveness for the same sin.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Bravo!
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It is even harder to condemn another sinner when you yourself have received such shining forgiveness for the same sin.
And yet it is so, so prevalent.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Kat in the Hat
Shipmate
# 2557
|
Posted
Was that (reply to Lamb Chopped) what Tim Rice was getting at in his lyric "Judas' Death"?
--------------------
Less is more ...
Posts: 485 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
I don't know. I just looked at the lyrics and his Judas seems to be blaming God for making him do it, which I don't believe happened. The lyrics confuse me a bit.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I don't know. I just looked at the lyrics and his Judas seems to be blaming God for making him do it, which I don't believe happened. The lyrics confuse me a bit.
God did make Pharaoh do it, at least one or two of the times. He's not a tame lion, etc.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Meh. That doesn't kick in until Pharaoh has already done it several times all on his ownie-o, and seems to me to be something along the lines of "all right, you wanna be that way, then BE that way, fine!" But whatever the case with Pharaoh, there's nothing in Scripture to say God had anything to do with making Judas do it at any point. But we digress. Don't we?
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
No, because we get to the postmodern - human - heart of these human stories.
The 2000 year old one is barely civilized. The 3500 year old one definitely isn't. God met us in both.
The OP itself is on the cusp of medieval-modern.
[ 01. April 2014, 07:02: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
|
Posted
Lamb Chopped said:
quote:
It is extremely hard to condemn another sinner when you are so close to the event that your own guilty role in it is ever before your eyes. It is even harder to condemn another sinner when you yourself have received such shining forgiveness for the same sin.
What Mousethief said. Forgiveness for sins denied (internally, I mean) can create great
viciousness. That's badly put. It's not the forgiveness that produces the evil but the failure to recognize and accept the need for it.
I find Judas patently repentant - and what is repentance if not an earnest wish to turn the clock back, for heaven's sake? But Peter? I challenge you to quote one single word of repentance from the mouth of Peter. At the time of his denial we are told he went out and wept bitterly. That, for me, just doesn't cut the mustard as far as repentance is concerned. Nor does "I love you" dragged out of him three times by his patient master.
--------------------
In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
Lamb Chopped said:
quote:
It is extremely hard to condemn another sinner when you are so close to the event that your own guilty role in it is ever before your eyes. It is even harder to condemn another sinner when you yourself have received such shining forgiveness for the same sin.
What Mousethief said. Forgiveness for sins denied (internally, I mean) can create great
viciousness. That's badly put. It's not the forgiveness that produces the evil but the failure to recognize and accept the need for it.
I find Judas patently repentant - and what is repentance if not an earnest wish to turn the clock back, for heaven's sake? But Peter? I challenge you to quote one single word of repentance from the mouth of Peter. At the time of his denial we are told he went out and wept bitterly. That, for me, just doesn't cut the mustard as far as repentance is concerned. Nor does "I love you" dragged out of him three times by his patient master.
I think repentance certainly includes the wish to turn the clock back ("Oh, that I had never done that") and in the secular sense, maybe that's all it involves. "I totally repent eating that week-old potato salad, woe's me..."
But Christian repentance isn't just regret or remorse. It adds faith--at least enough trust in the mix that there actually IS a way out of my current mess, that God will MAKE that way for me though I don't deserve it--that, in fact, because of God's mercy there is reason to go on living in spite of how badly I just fucked up.
Judas and Peter are in fact the clearest example of the difference between simple regret/remorse and repentance. Both fucked up; both deserve judgement; both know it; both are devastated; both know they can't reverse it, though they desperately want to. But Judas took the totally human and logical step of imposing his own penalty. Peter was blessed with the illogicality of hanging on anyway--until Jesus showed up to complete his forgiveness, most likely in that mysterious private Easter Day visit that is mentioned but never described anywhere in Scripture.
As for your demand for a clear-cut Scripturally quoted "I repent" from Peter--you know, we don't get this from hardly anyone in Scripture, do we? The woman who wept at Jesus' feet--as far as we know, she never said a word. At least it's not reported--and why should it be? Paul, when he fell off his horse on the way to Damascus, never says, "Boy howdy, did I ever fuck up persecuting those Christians, I'm sorry." Peter, when he gets WAAAAYYY above himself and starts telling Jesus the cross isn't necessary, "God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you!" gets called "Satan" by that same Lord and Master, and we never hear of a "Sorry, Lord." "All right, Peter" exchange afterward. Seriously, it's not usually necessary. Actions speak just as loudly as words.
Judas imposed judgement on himself. That is the act of a man who despairs of any way of getting free of his guilt. Poor man. A very human and terribly sad response.
Peter--well, he weeps, but that could mean either remorse or repentance, so leave that out. And the fact that he is still around three days later could simply indicate an effective suicide watch by the other ten disciples. But then there's the whole tenor of his behavior by the Sea of Galilee, where he is almost puppy-dog anxious to do, and overdo, anything Jesus asks. There's his refusal to vilify Judas to the rest of the Christian assembly the week after the Ascension. There's his later life of service and evangelism. There's his death for Christ. All in all, I'd take that as a decent substitute for the reported words "I repent."
ETA: and of course Jesus had to drag "I love you" out of Peter. What decent human being would rush to repeat those words so soon after having totally denied them by his actions? It must have been like chewing broken glass for Peter to say so.
[ 01. April 2014, 15:42: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But whatever the case with Pharaoh, there's nothing in Scripture to say God had anything to do with making Judas do it at any point. But we digress. Don't we?
Only if you think that using Scripture to understand Scripture is digressing. I thought that was the Lutheran way. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
I find Judas patently repentant - and what is repentance if not an earnest wish to turn the clock back, for heaven's sake?
Yeah, I'd think "I have sinned in betraying innocent blood" counts as admission of guilt, and attempting to give the money back shows repentance on any scale I can think of.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But Christian repentance isn't just regret or remorse. It adds faith--at least enough trust in the mix that there actually IS a way out of my current mess, that God will MAKE that way for me though I don't deserve it--that, in fact, because of God's mercy there is reason to go on living in spite of how badly I just fucked up.
True, although (a) Judas wasn't a Christian at the time of the crucifixion; he was Jewish; (b) you're implying here that Christians would never commit suicide, which is tantamount to saying that clinical depression is impossible for Christians.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
ETA: and of course Jesus had to drag "I love you" out of Peter. What decent human being would rush to repeat those words so soon after having totally denied them by his actions? It must have been like chewing broken glass for Peter to say so.
This kind of flies in the face of your words about Peter's puppy-dog like willingness to do what Jesus asked. If we're playing "what do you expect?" I'd expect he'd be too eager to say the words out of his joy at Jesus' resurrection and desire to make right what he f***ed up.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
huh??? Feeling like we've drifted into a miscommunication void here.... will have to come back at a slightly more leisured moment and try again.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Only if you think that using Scripture to understand Scripture is digressing. I thought that was the Lutheran way.
By digression, I meant Pharaoh.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But Christian repentance isn't just regret or remorse.
True, although (a) Judas wasn't a Christian at the time of the crucifixion; he was Jewish; (b) you're implying here that Christians would never commit suicide, which is tantamount to saying that clinical depression is impossible for Christians.
Of course I don't mean that, my own problems with depression have been referred to a zillion times on Ship, which I thought you, at least, would have come across. And I threw in the word "Christian" in contrast to "secular". I could have said "believers' " or something to cover the technicality, but that would have just fuzzed the issue further.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief: quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
ETA: and of course Jesus had to drag "I love you" out of Peter. What decent human being would rush to repeat those words so soon after having totally denied them by his actions? It must have been like chewing broken glass for Peter to say so.
This kind of flies in the face of your words about Peter's puppy-dog like willingness to do what Jesus asked. If we're playing "what do you expect?" I'd expect he'd be too eager to say the words out of his joy at Jesus' resurrection and desire to make right what he f***ed up.
Must be a personality thing. Me, if I had said (beg pardon, publicly communicated) that I loved Jesus so much that even if all my peers fell away, I would still be faithful unto death, and then screwed up, the last thing I'd be doing is saying anything that would bring the memory of the first occasion back to the memory of my hearers. I'd let my actions speak for me instead of words for a long, long time. And having Jesus publicly force the issue--well, I'd say it (as Peter did), but I wouldn't be at all happy to have him probing that wound--and right in front of those who heard me fuck up the first time.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
