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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: US evangelical pastor becomes Anglican priest
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I question the theology of people who go top theological schools all the time. Why just the other day I questioned the theology of not one, but three students of Harvard Divinity School in a conversation about open baptism. I had no idea it followed from a lack of integrity on my part. Thank you so much for enlightening me. Next time I'll know that their theology and learning is beyond question.
[ 25. March 2014, 12:47: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Gosh, I edited that post and still missed the fact that the conversation was about open communion, not baptism. Ho hum. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Dubious Thomas, doesn't another article say that Christ is not present in the bread and wine when it is consumed by non-believers?
Article XXV: .."but they that receive them unworthily purchase to themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith."
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Dubious Thomas, doesn't another article say that Christ is not present in the bread and wine when it is consumed by non-believers?
Article XXV: .."but they that receive them unworthily purchase to themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith."
I was thinking of XXIX:
"THE wicked and such as be void of a lively faith, although they do carnally and visibly press with their teeth (as S.
Augustine saith) the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, yet in no wise are they partakers of Christ, but rather to
their condemnation do eat and drink the sign or sacrament of so great a thing."
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I question the theology of people who go top theological schools all the time. Why just the other day I questioned the theology of not one, but three students of Harvard Divinity School in a conversation about open baptism. I had no idea it followed from a lack of integrity on my part. Thank you so much for enlightening me. Next time I'll know that their theology and learning is beyond question.
I have no dog in this fight. I've not studied theology anywhere. But arguing online that someone studying for a PhD in Theology at a well-regarded university lacks understanding of the subject seems a bit of a stretch to me. His difference in opinion and interpretation should be open for debate, but certainly not his credentials.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
And frankly, bugger you for accusing me of racism and class prejudice.
ken and Zach82 - you both know commandment 5: "Don't easily offend, don't be easily offended".
I really can't see any warrant for ken reading a motivation of racism or classism into Zach82's comment, or for Zach82 reading ken's post as an accusation rather than an attempt to explain what looked like (and IMO was) an over-reaction. But if either of you think you can - then Hell's just one step down on the main index, and you can take any offence there. Do not continue any personal attacks on this thread.
Eliab
Purgatory Host
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Dubious Thomas, doesn't another article say that Christ is not present in the bread and wine when it is consumed by non-believers?
Article XXV: .."but they that receive them unworthily purchase to themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith."
I was thinking of XXIX:
"THE wicked and such as be void of a lively faith, although they do carnally and visibly press with their teeth (as S.
Augustine saith) the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, yet in no wise are they partakers of Christ, but rather to
their condemnation do eat and drink the sign or sacrament of so great a thing."
ah I got distracted by XXV! I am not sure if XXIX says that He is not present, but more that the wicked and void are not partakers, which is in line with the general receptionist take of the articles.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Dubious Thomas, doesn't another article say that Christ is not present in the bread and wine when it is consumed by non-believers?
Should there have been a toothy-smiley ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) or wink ![[Biased]](wink.gif) icon with that question?
Surely, you're not suggesting that radical Zwinglians are "non-believers" who don't get exactly what they don't want?
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Dubious Thomas, doesn't another article say that Christ is not present in the bread and wine when it is consumed by non-believers?
Should there have been a toothy-smiley or wink icon with that question?
Surely, you're not suggesting that radical Zwinglians are "non-believers" who don't get exactly what they don't want?
Certainly not! But I just remembered reading something in the 39 Articles that suggested that the presence of Christ is dependent on the person partaking.
I don't think it's terribly important what a Christian believes about Communion, as long as they believe Christ commanded it and that it's an important part of Christian practice. It's a mystery, in my view, which means that probably none of us has the "right" answer anyway.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
... I don't think it's terribly important what a Christian believes about Communion, as long as they believe Christ commanded it and that it's an important part of Christian practice. It's a mystery, in my view, which means that probably none of us has the "right" answer anyway.
Seekingsister, I'm sure there are shipmates that will be horrified by that statement, but Queen Elizabeth I said something similar. A lot of people assume she was equivocating, but she was making a profounder theological statement than they realise.
quote:
"Twas God the Word that spake it,
He took the bread and brake it;
And what the Word did make it;
That I believe, and take it."
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister says:
He is studying at Durham University, so any suggestion that he's unclear on that Anglican theology is would cast aspersions on that institution.
Perhaps his wording was wrong but there is almost nothing in the 39 Articles that even most Bible-bashing fundies would struggle to accept. So it is Protestant in the sense that pretty much all Protestants could ascent to the fundamentals of Anglicanism.
Not aspersions at Durham, but accusations of ax grind by the deacon.
The XXXIX Articles are hardly the last word on Anglicanism.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
quote:
In Atlanta, there is an independent "Anglican" mega-church, a chunk of whose congregation originated at the TEC cathedral, which is led by a pastor who has some sort of episcopal ordination but who is not presently under the authority of any bishop (as far as I know): Church of the Apostles: "We are an evangelical, Anglican congregation...." It looks like the church in Colorado will end up a lot like the Church of the Apostles. [/QB]
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
quote:
In Atlanta, there is an independent "Anglican" mega-church, a chunk of whose congregation originated at the TEC cathedral, which is led by a pastor who has some sort of episcopal ordination but who is not presently under the authority of any bishop (as far as I know): Church of the Apostles: "We are an evangelical, Anglican congregation...." It looks like the church in Colorado will end up a lot like the Church of the Apostles.
[/QB]
IIRC, The Church of the Apostles actually began as an Episcopal parish, and the rector, Michael Youssef, was ordained either in Australia (where he attended seminary at Moore) or by the Bishop of Atlanta after he came to the States. In any event, a few years after the parish was established, it voted to leave the TEC, which it did comparatively easily because it didn't have its own building at the time. Youssef was released from the Episcopal priesthood, and The Church of the Apostles reorganized itself as a congregationally-governed Anglican church. (There are other such; I know of one in Rhode Island.)
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The XXXIX Articles are hardly the last word on Anglicanism.
Silent Acolyte,
Not at all a criticism of your statement here. Rather, an observation in relation to it....
I'm struck by how often the very Anglicans who vociferously insist on the special authority of the XXXIX and the 1662 BCP for defining "orthodoxy" end up believing and acting contrary to those foundational documents.
Zwinglian Memorialism is rife amongst Anglican "evangelicals" as is denial of baptismal regeneration.(*)
I will be pleasantly surprised if the soon-to-be-ordained Colorado pastor isn't an advocate of Memorialism and a merely symbolic-testimonial view of baptism.
(*) Back in my university days, when I was active in Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship at a Canadian university, my evangelical Anglican friends were horrified when I explained what their Prayer Book said they were supposed to believe about baptism. This came up in a situation where IVCF members were trying to deal with missionaries from an aggressive Church of Christ group (which taught baptismal regeneration), and the evangelical Anglicans were lining up with the Baptists and Pentecostals to argue that "baptism is just a symbol of our faith in Christ."
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
This came up in a situation where IVCF members were trying to deal with missionaries from an aggressive Church of Christ group (which taught baptismal regeneration), and the evangelical Anglicans were lining up with the Baptists and Pentecostals to argue that "baptism is just a symbol of our faith in Christ."
I have a feeling this is the group I spent many years of my life in. Whether or not your friends were correct in their opposition to it, they were right to oppose it nonetheless!
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Point of information: is symbolic-and-not-regenerative baptism a necessary part of the evangelical package? If I believe that, am I casting myself outside the evangelical fold?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I have a feeling this is the group I spent many years of my life in. Whether or not your friends were correct in their opposition to it, they were right to oppose it nonetheless!
I don't suppose I need to be "coy" about the group's identity. It was the International Churches of Christ.
I was actively working with the opposition to the ICOC's campus recruitment efforts. My problem was simply with the fact that many IVCF folks seemed to have become preoccupied with the group's baptismal regeneration teaching (as if that was one of the major strikes against them).
[ 25. March 2014, 17:35: Message edited by: Dubious Thomas ]
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Point of information: is symbolic-and-not-regenerative baptism a necessary part of the evangelical package? If I believe that, am I casting myself outside the evangelical fold?
Mousethief,
I hope I have understood your question--I think something might be missing after, "If I believe that." I assume you meant: If you believe in baptismal regeneration are you outside the evangelical fold?
I haven't been an evangelical for a very long time, but back when I was, baptismal regeneration (when it registered at all with people) was seen as quite a problematic idea--judged as the imposition of a "work" into the experience of salvation -- whereas, reciting the "Sinner's Prayer" after reading "Four Spiritual Laws" was not seen as a "work"!
Lutherans and Anglicans I knew, who were involved in IVCF, all distanced themselves from their denominations' official teachings about the necessity of baptism, in deference to the dominant doctrinal ethos created by the members who strongly advocated the belief that baptism was simply a "witness" or "testimony" to salvation.
John Stott was a major "hero" of IVCF folks (and once spoke at the university I was attending). I don't know if he accepted classic Anglican teaching on baptism or not -- but I can say that, if he did, there wasn't a hint of it in the things he wrote that were published and distributed by Inter-Varsity Press.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
I hope I have understood your question--I think something might be missing after, "If I believe that." I assume you meant: If you believe in baptismal regeneration are you outside the evangelical fold?
Yes, that was what I meant. Sorry I wasn't clear.
Interesting to see another person who was involved in IVCF. I was thick in IVCF in grad school, and met some wonderful friends there. But our chapter was very big-tent, and we Catholics, Episcopalians, and Lutherans all the way down the candle to Billy-Bob's-Bible-Church-by-the-Side-of-the-Road-ians. Just as I was phasing out, a raft of hyper-charismatics (if not hyper-pentecostals) took over and basically drove everybody else out. It was sad to see.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Quoth Fr. Dn. Packiam:
2. What do Anglicans believe?
Anglican theology is, to put it simply, Protestant theology.¹
It seems to me that our Father Deacon needs a strong course of Remedial Anglicanism.
Wasn't there a Mystery Worshiper report recently about a joint service between an Anglican parish and a Southern Baptist congregation, which reported that the Anglican celebrant at the joint communion service clearly and firmly announced a Zwinglian Memorialist doctrine of communion as the "Protestant" position? My sense is that there's a lot of that amongst these "Anglicans."
That was Shane Copeland, who is kind of a twit. Coincidentally, his church (St George's Phoenix) is also part of PEARUSA.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Dubious Thomas, doesn't another article say that Christ is not present in the bread and wine when it is consumed by non-believers?
Article XXV: .."but they that receive them unworthily purchase to themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith."
I was thinking of XXIX:
"THE wicked and such as be void of a lively faith, although they do carnally and visibly press with their teeth (as S.
Augustine saith) the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, yet in no wise are they partakers of Christ, but rather to
their condemnation do eat and drink the sign or sacrament of so great a thing."
ah I got distracted by XXV! I am not sure if XXIX says that He is not present, but more that the wicked and void are not partakers, which is in line with the general receptionist take of the articles.
More virtualist, I'd think. But certainly neither memorialist nor transubstantiationist!
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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