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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Taking time out
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I was at a Synod at the weekend and one Minister presented a sabbatical paper on taking time out/off. Seemed incredibly PC to me. Our members (or mine anyway) work incredibly long hours; leave home at 7am and get back after 7pm weekdays and we still expect them to give time to Church work at weekends etc. They don't get sabbaticals. Their jobs are equally stressful. Yet here we are pleading for ministers to have sabbaticals, Sundays off; holidays etc.
And when it comes to sabbaticals it sometimes seems that these are no more than extended holidays.
Are the clergy pampered to an undue extent?
[ 25. March 2014, 10:56: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I was at a Synod at the weekend and one Minister presented a sabbatical paper on taking time out/off. Seemed incredibly PC to me. Our members (or mine anyway) work incredibly long hours; leave home at 7am and get back after 7pm weekdays and we still expect them to give time to Church work at weekends etc. They don't get sabbaticals. Their jobs are equally stressful. Yet here we are pleading for ministers to have sabbaticals, Sundays off; holidays etc.
And when it comes to sabbaticals it sometimes seems that these are no more than extended holidays.
Are the clergy pampered to an undue extent?
I also find this idea of Sabbaticals rather odd. The Methodist minister here is about to embark on his second in 6 years!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
And when it comes to sabbaticals it sometimes seems that these are no more than extended holidays.
In most denoms that I am aware of that grant sabbaticals (not all do, of course) the pastor is required to submit a proposal of how s/he will use the time-- generally something related to the greater mission of the church-- researching some topic of interest that may make it's way into a sermon and/or book*, teaching or preaching at a mission outpost, serving on the denominational level, etc. Which is not to say that said pastor won't find someway to finagle things so that said research/preaching/teaching just has to happen at some amenable place for a holiday. But generally, there is some attempt to connect the sabbatical to something worthwhile, with a report on the results expected upon his/her return. The custom would probably adhere to the connection in some (particularly Reformed) denominations to the pastor as "teaching elder", analogous to university faculty who enjoy similar sabbaticals with similar goals/expectations.
Which is not to say that this might not also be true:
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Are the clergy pampered to an undue extent?
Ministerial duty has it's own unique sets of great benefits and great costs, which differ from those of other professions. Whether the mix is more blessing or bane probably depends a great deal on the particularly clegyperson and the particular parish. But some distinct advantages are definitely a part of the mix.
*which has led to interesting discussions of late as to the whether the pastor or the church holds the intellectual property rights to the work product.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
Clergy shouldn't get Sundays off. On that we can agree. My in laws still think it's unfair we have to work on Christmas.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by cliffdweller:
which has led to interesting discussions of late as to the whether the pastor or the church holds the intellectual property rights to the work product.
That is a good question. We are both employees and self employed. My understanding is that employers own the work product of employees and contractors. So, the congregation would own the intellectual property rights. Do universities own the intellectual property rights of research done by their faculty? What if they are visiting faculty? Clergy write books all the time and retain the property rights. I don't plan on going on sabbatical and writing a book.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
Not in the UK we're not. We are office holders, not employees.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I also find this idea of Sabbaticals rather odd. The Methodist minister here is about to embark on his second in 6 years!
I've never had one, and I was ordained in September 1987. By "rights" I should have had three, with a fourth not far off. Yet in that time I did do both a Bachelor's and a Master's degree (both while working "full-time"), however the Doctorate proved a bit much and I dropped out in my third year.
Perhaps this reluctance to go for Sabbaticals brands me as a micromanager who isn't prepared to entrust "his" church - and, in particular, the pulpit ministry - to others for more than a few weeks.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Ministerial duty has it's own unique sets of great benefits and great costs, which differ from those of other professions.
For me a blessing and a bane has been tied housing - especially the fact that I do not own a property and will have to move to I-know-not-where when I retire (a difficult time to cope with emotionally at the best of times).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Apparently we can have them after 10 years but the paperwork involved is more complicated than the paperwork to get a visa for a North Korean missionary.
What's the point?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
IME sabbaticals for the clergy are routine in the Methodist Church. The assumption is that that the time is meant to be used wisely; it's not time off so much as time for reflection and reassessment. What you do during the sabbatical seems to be less important than what you take from the whole experience and how you apply that to your ministry. But I stand to be corrected.
Methodist congregations are used to worshipping without the weekly presence of their minister, so Sunday mornings aren't necessarily the time when a sabbatical makes the most impact.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
A warning from me, I had a 6 month sabbatical, not from church work, but as a lecturer, and when I went back, it felt so awful, I quit!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Are the clergy pampered to an undue extent?
Not hereabouts anyway.
Although anyone could (in theory anyway) maybe attempt to get freehold in the C/E and then do nothing beyond the bare minimum.
But I'd suggest that Overwork, rather than Underwork is the problem that C/E clergy face. And for that, a sabbatical is ideal~ forcing folk to s-t-o-p and that's not as easy as it sounds.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Perhaps there is a case for more vacation time. Perhaps there should be clearer substitute-clergy networks available for when one is on vacation and an emergency arises. That said, lengthy sabbaticals are for scholars who have clear expectations of scholarship (in the sense of advancing the professional field, and not just studying for one's own personal development). These are people who expect to conduct real research and to publish the results for the scholarly community or even the public. Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of parish clergy on sabbaticals doing things like this.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Perhaps there is a case for more vacation time. Perhaps there should be clearer substitute-clergy networks available for when one is on vacation and an emergency arises. That said, lengthy sabbaticals are for scholars who have clear expectations of scholarship (in the sense of advancing the professional field, and not just studying for one's own personal development). These are people who expect to conduct real research and to publish the results for the scholarly community or even the public. Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of parish clergy on sabbaticals doing things like this.
Again, in my tradition (Presbyterian) that is primarily what clergy do during sabbaticals-- research of some sort. (I have a foot in both camps right now, being both clergy and an academic).
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ahleal V
Shipmate
# 8404
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Posted
At least in the Anglican context, 6 days a week is in the contract, with 36 days of holiday a year. I think a week's retreat is generally given on top, but this isn't in the Common Tenure contract.
I didn't think about this much til someone pointed out that compared to those who work 5 days a week, the extra time involved in working 6 days a week is equal to just under 2 months a year.
So given that, I find it hard to get excited about clergy taking sabbaticals.
x
AV
[ 24. March 2014, 20:49: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]
Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Yeah, I'd be inclined to ask the complainers how much time they work each week.
If the idea of a clergy-person having a bit of time to actually think about what he is doing seems too much for you, then maybe you have the problem,...
and you will have the further problem when said clergy-person jumps ship and writes negative reviews of your parish for prospective replacements.
But then I'm only an irrelevant schoolteacher, who gets two months of holiday and does nothing but babysit, so what would I know?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
Maybe we need to think about the church's expectations on busy lay folk and affirm the christian mission of where they are most of their waking hours?
As a Uk Methodist minister I will have a 3 month sabbatical after 10 years, and then every 7 years. As a 6 day a week role that doesn't seem excessive, and yes some can make it more about themselves (though if it stops burnout is that valid in itself maybe?) but the idea is having space to reflect and equip yourself for the next stage of ministry. That may not be actively academic in a shareable form, but will enrich the next few years of work in various ways - preaching, pastorally etc.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
My understanding is that employers own the work product of employees and contractors. So, the congregation would own the intellectual property rights. Do universities own the intellectual property rights of research done by their faculty? What if they are visiting faculty? Clergy write books all the time and retain the property rights. I don't plan on going on sabbatical and writing a book.
I know at the university I work (but only as staff) faculty own the intellectual property rights (copyright) for books/papers they write; the university owns the patent rights if any of official research, however, splits any profits from the patents amongst the researchers, the department, and the school (the university also provides the patent attorneys and encourages researchers who want to to use sabbatical time or summer time to develop the idea into a company). Faculty can take either a half sabbatical every 3 to 4 years or a full sabbatical every 7 years and often use it to visit at another university or consult with a company. Faculty also sometimes get unpaid leaves of absence to serve in government. Note however that all the University staff and faculty have to sign an intellectual property agreement otherwise the work is not necessarily 'work for hire' so unless the congregation and the pastor have a signed agreement the pastor probably owns his or her work in the US.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Note however that all the University staff and faculty have to sign an intellectual property agreement otherwise the work is not necessarily 'work for hire' so unless the congregation and the pastor have a signed agreement the pastor probably owns his or her work in the US.
A recent article in CT suggested just the opposite-- that, while most pastors and churches assume that the pastor owns the intellectual property rights to sermons and books based on sermons, if there is no signed intellectual property agreement the church legally owns the rights unless said pastor can prove that all the work was done off-site, on off hours and using his/her own computer.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Perhaps there is a case for more vacation time. Perhaps there should be clearer substitute-clergy networks available for when one is on vacation and an emergency arises. That said, lengthy sabbaticals are for scholars who have clear expectations of scholarship (in the sense of advancing the professional field, and not just studying for one's own personal development). These are people who expect to conduct real research and to publish the results for the scholarly community or even the public. Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of parish clergy on sabbaticals doing things like this.
For my sabbatical, I plan on taking a research cruise of Northern Europe to find a Lutheran church that does liturgy well and whose theology doesn't make Martin Luther turn over in his grave. I was working on getting funds to take you along as a research assistant. But since you don't even think I should get a sabbatical...you can forget it.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Our last minister went studying steam trains! he came back with lots of photos of himself driving, servicing and polishing trains.
This is true!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I'd say the solution is to spread sabbaticals further out to more professions, not cut them out of those few professions that have them as if they're some kind of unwarranted luxury.
- orfeo, who quite enjoyed his long service leave last year and is well aware that the whole notion seemed impossibly exotic to the Americans and Canadians that he explained it to.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
A sabbatical is often a veiled way of saying that the clergy don't have time to fulfil the vow to continue in study. At least in the Episcopalian/Anglican tradition one of the vows at ordination is to continue in study. It's easy for clergy to feel that a day is best used constructively by visitation, admin, pastoral care, services and such, but to only fill you days with this is to neglect both study and private prayer - two vows that are taken. I have spoken to clergy who freely admit that a sabbatical is the only time in their vocation in which they can give serious thought and time to proper study. That's a pretty damning admission considering this is a vow taken before God and before the gathered people of God, but I can understand that on the whole congregations might get a little agitated at the thought that their priest is at home reading books, which is equally as damning of the expectations of congregations.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Having recently taken a few months off from the choir, which did me a tremendous amount of good, I now understand why clergy think it's necessary to have the occasional sabbatical. If your role is the care of people's hearts, souls, minds, then it is vital that they are not running on empty. Best to take a refreshing break before it gets to that stage. One would hope they discuss that break, and what best to do with it, with their spiritual director as well as their family, in order to get the most from the experience and return able to do their demanding work to the best of their ability again.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Pampered? To a degree. I have twice had priests doing teacher training placements with me. They had turned to teaching to escape the long hours of their former work only to find out that teaching required longer hours, even in the 'holidays'.
However, priesthood is supposed to be about being rather than doing.
As for sabbaticals, in this diocese they have to propose a topic for study and can't really get away with an extended holiday.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
In Australia, regardless of who you work for, after about ten years, one gets a special paid break.... About ten weeks or so. It is called long-service leave. It is vacation. If one wants to study, sleep, fish, travel or have sex, then that's up to the individual.
I have worked for the same denomination for 25 years. I have just finished my second lsl. I travelled. It was fun. But.... Try explaining that to the outside world! "Yes, I have ten weeks off, paid..." Lsl is not common in a community where many people move on to other jobs regularly. However, it still exists in jobs like teaching, ministry and so forth.
I decided I wanted a rest. I was overdue for lsl, so I took it, and was reinvigorated!
I don't know what happens with sabbaticals and so on here, having had no experience therein.
Aussies get four weeks vacation a year. Because I work in a specialised ministry, that demands much much sacrifice, I am given five. I take them.
I work hard. I live in one of the most remote areas in the state. I usually drive 4000 kms a month doing work in my parish, which takes five hours to drive across. My nearest city of more the 9000 is four hours away.
I find effective visiting means travelling, and staying with parishioners, or in motels paid for by work. When I am taking a day off, it is deserved. I sleep and relax. I try not to drive.
I chose my ministry role. I am not complaining. I loved lsl! I love what I do, and where I do it!
I am going on vacation after Easter, for ten days. Yay!
[ 25. March 2014, 19:14: Message edited by: Rowen ]
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No wonder the clergy have the highest job satisfaction.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Perhaps there is a case for more vacation time. Perhaps there should be clearer substitute-clergy networks available for when one is on vacation and an emergency arises. That said, lengthy sabbaticals are for scholars who have clear expectations of scholarship (in the sense of advancing the professional field, and not just studying for one's own personal development). These are people who expect to conduct real research and to publish the results for the scholarly community or even the public. Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of parish clergy on sabbaticals doing things like this.
For my sabbatical, I plan on taking a research cruise of Northern Europe to find a Lutheran church that does liturgy well and whose theology doesn't make Martin Luther turn over in his grave. I was working on getting funds to take you along as a research assistant. But since you don't even think I should get a sabbatical...you can forget it.
Alas, good luck with that.
Perhaps my post seemed a bit callous above, but I certainly will not backtrack. That said, don't disregard my first couple of sentences: I am all for you having two days consecutively off each week, with a scheduled backup priest to handle all of your emergencies, visitations, Masses, offices, whatever on those days. I am all for you having longer vacation time than you most likely receive, including Sundays. I am okay with two weeks of professional development each year. I am completely in support of you using your time flexibly, so if you're out late at night for six hours sitting at the hospital, go ahead and hang a sign on the church door the next morning to contact Father so-and-so. Heck, I'm even all for a diocesan team coming to every parish in the diocese to train the faithful on how to deal with this. Lengthy sabbaticals, though, shouldn't be automatic, and should have to be justified with some pretty hard evidence. There is a difference between the role of an academic and that of a parish priest.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Our last minister went studying steam trains! he came back with lots of photos of himself driving, servicing and polishing trains.
Now I could warm to that!! Where did he go?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Lengthy sabbaticals, though, shouldn't be automatic, and should have to be justified with some pretty hard evidence. There is a difference between the role of an academic and that of a parish priest.
I would probably understand your position more w/o the last sentence. As someone who serves in both roles, it strikes me as a bit of hubris to say the academic is doing "real" research that is "contributing to the field" and a pastor who is doing a different sort of research is not. As we have seen, denominations vary greatly in their practices in terms of granting of sabbatical, and under what circumstances and for what purpose (as do academic institutions). Both academics and clergy enjoy some unique privileges (a high degree of autonomy and institutional authority) that should be acknowledged and valued. But your last sentence strikes me as a bit more arrogant than is warranted.
[ 25. March 2014, 22:05: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Perhaps there is a case for more vacation time. Perhaps there should be clearer substitute-clergy networks available for when one is on vacation and an emergency arises. That said, lengthy sabbaticals are for scholars who have clear expectations of scholarship (in the sense of advancing the professional field, and not just studying for one's own personal development). These are people who expect to conduct real research and to publish the results for the scholarly community or even the public. Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of parish clergy on sabbaticals doing things like this.
For my sabbatical, I plan on taking a research cruise of Northern Europe to find a Lutheran church that does liturgy well and whose theology doesn't make Martin Luther turn over in his grave. I was working on getting funds to take you along as a research assistant. But since you don't even think I should get a sabbatical...you can forget it.
Alas, good luck with that.
Perhaps my post seemed a bit callous above, but I certainly will not backtrack. That said, don't disregard my first couple of sentences: I am all for you having two days consecutively off each week, with a scheduled backup priest to handle all of your emergencies, visitations, Masses, offices, whatever on those days. I am all for you having longer vacation time than you most likely receive, including Sundays. I am okay with two weeks of professional development each year. I am completely in support of you using your time flexibly, so if you're out late at night for six hours sitting at the hospital, go ahead and hang a sign on the church door the next morning to contact Father so-and-so. Heck, I'm even all for a diocesan team coming to every parish in the diocese to train the faithful on how to deal with this. Lengthy sabbaticals, though, shouldn't be automatic, and should have to be justified with some pretty hard evidence. There is a difference between the role of an academic and that of a parish priest.
Sabbatical time is in my covenant agreement but that is the diocesan standard. I think I get one after seven years at the same church. I'll be happy with staying in one place for seven years. I'm ambivalent about taking a sabbatical. It will depend on what is happening seven years from now. That said. I do believe parish clergy have a scholarly role to play. If clergy had time to truly study, I would agree with you. However, such is not always the case, so I think sabbaticals can be justified and beneficial for all involved. They can also turn into an extended vacation.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Our last minister went studying steam trains! he came back with lots of photos of himself driving, servicing and polishing trains.
Now I could warm to that!! Where did he go?
The East Lancs Railway.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I was at a Synod at the weekend and one Minister presented a sabbatical paper on taking time out/off. Seemed incredibly PC to me. Our members (or mine anyway) work incredibly long hours; leave home at 7am and get back after 7pm weekdays and we still expect them to give time to Church work at weekends etc. They don't get sabbaticals. Their jobs are equally stressful. Yet here we are pleading for ministers to have sabbaticals, Sundays off; holidays etc.
And when it comes to sabbaticals it sometimes seems that these are no more than extended holidays.
Are the clergy pampered to an undue extent?
My reaction is not to the idea that sabbatical leave, or holiday time for that matter, is PC, but sadness that so many are obviously in stressful jobs and working such long hours.
In a country where the idea of an eight-hour working day took hold as early as 1840, and where basic annual holiday entitlement is four weeks, I would expect clergy to have their share of down time.
Every summer in our suburban district, churches take turns to share Sunday worship as each minister takes their summer breaks.
It must have been thirty years ago that our local Presbytery adopted a policy formulated by their pastoral appointee that ministers should work ten half weekdays, an evening counting as a half day.
When looking for ideas for a Transfiguration service, I came across this quote:
quote:
If you know what it is like to be tired, to have people seeking you out for what you can do for them, and other people criticizing you and working against you, if you have ever been filled with dread at what lies ahead, you have a little something in common with Jesus.
Jesus took time out to go into a lonely place, up a mountain or wherever. Why deny our clergy the same privilege?
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Indeed. Isn't the charitable response to clergy getting sabbaticals whilst a lot of us non-clergy don't to call for others to have them as well, rather than a dog in the manger "I don't get one so you shouldn't either"? attitude. Why the race to the bottom?
I know I could do with one. I don't see how I benefit by whining that since I can't have one no other bugger should either.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
What Karl said.
If that doesn't persuade you, then self-interest should. Clergy who don't get any time out are more likely to have mental health issues and/or burn out. Interregnums are a lot of extra work for the PCC and churchwardens, and eventually the supply of clergy willing to work in your church is bound to give out...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
As said above, study leave (we are not allowed to call it a sabatical now)is meant to give an opportunity for clergy to do expand their knowledge and skills or do some deeper research.
Sometimes a bishop will ask for something writen up at the end of it so that he can see how the time has been spent.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Are the clergy pampered to an undue extent?
In general, no. Not with regard to sabbaticals, though each diocese might have its own rules on how frequently they can happen. In my last but one diocese, the rule was once every ten years since ordination. My last diocese was once every ten years since joining that particular diocese. The upshot was in 13 years of full-time ministry, no sabbatical. Just a pathetic and ever-increasing desperation to make it through to the next holiday break and perhaps my day off, if I was lucky.
I think all professions where the person lives their vocational lifestyle 24/7 should have sabbaticals for the sake of their mental health. Sabbaticals, of course, are also intended for educational and professional refreshment purposes, so, in theory, a more useful - as well as rested - individual should be returning from their 3 months - or whatever - off.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
If the majority of parish clergy worked the sort of hours that they did 50+ years ago then maybe sabbaticals would be a good idea; but now?
We are a parish where many of our regulars commute long distances and so have very long days; they still give willingly of their time to run the parish, maintaining the fabric of the building and churchyard, and keeping things going. On the whole, most people get 4 - maximum 5 - weeks annual leave (unless they're teachers but we don't have too many of those).
How to justify 3 months off for someone who is, in any case, only working Thursday to Sunday, who is out of the parish Sunday night to Thursday morning, who is so determined not to do more than his House-for-Duty contract that he won't even get back to undertakers or return urgent messages on the answerphone.
As was rather tartly pointed out at the last APM (I don't go) the PP took off more Sundays than the 2 churchwardens and organist combined...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I wouldn't include House-for-Duty people under the same heading as Stipendiary clergy ... though they should, I agree, answer phone calls etc.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If the majority of parish clergy worked the sort of hours that they did 50+ years ago then maybe sabbaticals would be a good idea; but now?
We are a parish where many of our regulars commute long distances and so have very long days; they still give willingly of their time to run the parish, maintaining the fabric of the building and churchyard, and keeping things going. On the whole, most people get 4 - maximum 5 - weeks annual leave (unless they're teachers but we don't have too many of those).
How to justify 3 months off for someone who is, in any case, only working Thursday to Sunday, who is out of the parish Sunday night to Thursday morning, who is so determined not to do more than his House-for-Duty contract that he won't even get back to undertakers or return urgent messages on the answerphone.
As was rather tartly pointed out at the last APM (I don't go) the PP took off more Sundays than the 2 churchwardens and organist combined...
Do you have some reason to conclude-- as your first paragraph does-- that this unfortunate anecdotal example represents "the majority" of clergy?
I can't speak cross-pond, but I don't see any evidence that American clergy are working any fewer hours than their counterparts 50 years ago (now if you want to go back to circuit rider days, you may have a point...)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
Sabbaticals or long service leave are not limited to clergy.
My Uncle was a GP and he had a couple. I know you can have something in the Police and when I worked in finance the FD was open to people having something similar.
Part of the difficulty is in language because we only talk in terms of 'employment' and 'job' and the role I serve in a Baptist Church is still considered to be a vocation where we receive a stipend and not a salary.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
In most professions there is an expectation that you continue to learn. At the very least to stay up to date with new knowledge - would you want to be seen by a doctor nearing retirement who hasn't learnt about new treatments and diagnostic methods since graduation 30-40 years previously? In a lot of professions that may include brief (several weeks or months) returns to university for specific courses, maybe longer term taught or research post graduate qualifications (masters or doctorates). Sabbaticals in many professions provide space for similar career development.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But your last sentence strikes me as a bit more arrogant than is warranted.
I certainly didn't mean it thus, and apologize if it sounds that way. Let me try to rephrase: people working in academic jobs have specific research obligations to fulfill, while people working outside academia (in churches, for instance) have different obligations.
Now perhaps an individual has an agreement with a church in which her/his post has academic expectations. I'm not sure how this plays out in Anglicanism, but it can certainly happen in many Protestant churches, including the Presbyterian tradition to which shamwari probably refers, if I recall correctly. If that person is hired with an expectation of scholarly research, or time off to serve as a journal publisher, or time off to be a public speaker, then so be it. Set aside time for that person to fulfill the obligations of the position, even if it be a sabbatical.
That said, the OP seemed to tend toward the fact that every ordained person should be granted a sabbatical, a suggestion which I call into question. Most people with advanced degrees are interested in furthering their professional research, but that doesn't mean such people should automatically receive a sabbatical for no reason other than amount of past service in the position.
[ 26. March 2014, 21:48: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
In most professions there is an expectation that you continue to learn. At the very least to stay up to date with new knowledge - would you want to be seen by a doctor nearing retirement who hasn't learnt about new treatments and diagnostic methods since graduation 30-40 years previously? In a lot of professions that may include brief (several weeks or months) returns to university for specific courses, maybe longer term taught or research post graduate qualifications (masters or doctorates). Sabbaticals in many professions provide space for similar career development.
I have to attend compulsory professional development and education courses to renew my practising certificate each year. All lawyers, doctors and most other professionals have similar obligations. It may not be compulsory for clergy, but keeping up to date on both theological learning and pastoral skills must surely be good for them and the congregation.
Our clergy have 4 weeks annual leave, and accrue long service leave; both these are in accordance with diocesan regulation. In addition, as a part of appointment within the parish, each is entitled to a week's retreat annually. Given the tasks they undertake, I for one don't begrudge them these entitlements.
In my own case, as I am self-employed (both as a matter of ethics and regulation I cannot be an employee), any leave I have is unpaid. Indeed, even attending the hours at compulsory education come at my own cost, as that is time I cannot bill to a client. I take a week's break most winters and around 5 each summer, summer break including public holidays. Madame runs her own business and while she has a very competent manager, her breaks are not just unpaid but she pays an allowance to the manager for the time she is away from work.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
As a professional musician I'm expected to keep up to date with performance skills, to take on board new repertory, etc, etc. I'm expected to do this in addition to my salaried position, not instead.
I say again, there is a lot of featherbedding going on. Across the board most professionals are expected (and expect) to work harder and keep abreast of developments in their field: the only professions where this is seen as requiring a sabbatical are the clergy and academia.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
...because of course we all know what clergy actually do, yes?
No.
We don't.
And a few duff ones (yes there may very well be a few around) do not invalidate the vast majority who work damn hard and are in all probability very fed up with having their meal times interrupted every single day. I mean. Honestly. Who in their right mind would go into stipendiary ministry right now? You'd need your head examining.
I'm with Karl on this.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
How to justify 3 months off for someone who is, in any case, only working Thursday to Sunday, who is out of the parish Sunday night to Thursday morning, who is so determined not to do more than his House-for-Duty contract that he won't even get back to undertakers or return urgent messages on the answerphone.
Not a picture I recognize. But then you're plainly talking about an unpaid, part-timer, a situation in ministry I have had little experience of. As a full-time stipendiary, if I was out of the parish (eg a clergy training day) for more than five hours I phoned a colleage in the next union to cover in case a funeral or emergency cropped up. Or I'd leave my mobile no on the answerphone. Answering the phone any time of the day and night was, quite rightly, part and parcel of an ordinary day's work. A day - let alone an overnight - out of parish was rare, except for booked leave, approved by the diocese, and covered by colleagues. But then again your description doesn't sound in the least applicable to the large rural unions of parishes we managed as full-time stipendiary clerics.
So perhaps there's a possibility here, that some people seem anxious not to consider; that circumstances might have some bearing on whether or not it's actually needful - not merely desirable - for sabbaticals to take place.
House for duty, eg, is a specific contract of a set number of hours. I have no idea what that must be like. How disciplined a cleric would need to be to keep to such a contract. I know of some such who certainly do their hours and no more. Galling, no doubt, to folks who might be used to the luxury of a full-time cleric at their disposal as and when required, but hardly unreasonable. If one engages the services of someone on an hours-per-week basis, there can be no complaint when that is what is received in return? I also know that many House for Duty folk simply work all the same hours their full-time paid colleagues do. Some even run parishes, despite the fact they have no legal standing to do this.
I don't know what arrangements the parish and diocese would have to make to ensure appropriate clergy cover, where there is a house for duty bod in place. That would obviously be between the parish/diocese involved and the part-time cleric. Sounds like your lot still need to do some negotiating to cover the parish load. If an unpaid part-timer is covering some of the parish work, obviously the parish'll have to figure out how to do the rest.
And whether or not unpaid, part-time clergy should get sabbaticals is obviously a question on its own and quite apart from whether or not full-time stipendiaries should have a block of time for study, refreshment and getting their heads showered. The two tasks are widely different, to say the least.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
As a professional musician I'm expected to keep up to date with performance skills, to take on board new repertory, etc, etc. I'm expected to do this in addition to my salaried position, not instead.
I say again, there is a lot of featherbedding going on. Across the board most professionals are expected (and expect) to work harder and keep abreast of developments in their field: the only professions where this is seen as requiring a sabbatical are the clergy and academia.
So because you don't get one no-one else should. How about instead putting the case for others outside the clergy and academia to have sabbaticals?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I was at a Synod at the weekend and one Minister presented a sabbatical paper on taking time out/off. Seemed incredibly PC to me. Our members (or mine anyway) work incredibly long hours; leave home at 7am and get back after 7pm weekdays and we still expect them to give time to Church work at weekends etc. They don't get sabbaticals. Their jobs are equally stressful. Yet here we are pleading for ministers to have sabbaticals, Sundays off; holidays etc.
And when it comes to sabbaticals it sometimes seems that these are no more than extended holidays.
Are the clergy pampered to an undue extent?
The thing that makes me worry that the Church may cease to exist is the extent to which we as a society have gotten good at filing up every nook and cranny of our lives. Our cell phones are constantly at our ears; we "friend" hundreds of people who we neither know nor care about; we have 24-hour entertainment on hundreds of channels plus streaming media if none of them will do; etc. We seem to have reached a point where we can fill that God-shaped hole in our lives with techno-garbage. I say anything that helps us to "be still and know that I am God" is a good thing. We should all take sabbaticals, and have to leave our electronics at home when we do.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
In our diocese, sabbatical leave is regarded as part of Continuing Ministerial Education, and part of the life long learning expectation. It is available to applicants who : quote:
have not less than
- eight years in licensed ministry.
- three years in current post.
- seven years since a previous Sabbatical.
- three years before retirement age.
The expectation is that it will be used to gain quote:
enrichment, new experiences and energy, different perspectives and fresh vision.
which quote:
Properly planned and reflected on… can be of enormous benefit to ministers, their families and those they serve, and to the wider church.
It is the equivalent of one day every four weeks accumulated over the seven year qualifying period.
When my other half fulfilled part time lecturing responsibilities at University level, she was paid an hourly rate for her lecturing time at a level which reflected that fact that she was expected to study and prepare as well as mark essays and offer tutors support, not just turn up and deliver a lecture.
Similarly, IMHO, when paying organists or other musicians the rate needs to reflect the time that they take to practise, and to refresh their skills. (My practice when we had a 'resident organist was also to, at least, offer payment for/contribution towards specific courses, and to treat purchase of music as a reimbursable expense of the post.)
In the same way, if it is important to the Church to keep clergy intellectually and spiritually fresh for their ministry, then that needs to be resourced somehow - and sabbatical leave is one of the ways in which that is done.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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