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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Infinity, inflation, and God
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
In the thread on universalism, there was talk about the relative importance of finite suffering in the temporal universe and infinite suffering in eternal hell. I have often seen the terms infinity and eternity quite casually banded about when people discuss the nature of God and the afterlife, and I wonder if people understand the trouble they get into with so many paradoxes arising from the mathematics and metaphysics of infinity.
If we believe in the reality of infinity, we have to deal with its implications. Last week, scientists announced the discovery of the detection of inflationary gravitational waves in the B-mode power spectrum, which strongly evidences the theory of cosmic inflation. See here.
Cosmic inflation predicts an infinite universe, in which there exist in reality infinitely many infinite universes. In this infinite universe, strange and wonderful things are real. Cantorian infinity gives us an infinite number of infinities, each infinitely bigger than the last. Not only does there really exist at this very moment a monkey randomly finishing the last typewritten full-stop of the Complete Works of Shakespeare- an event so mathematically improbable that it equates to the chances of one single person winning the lottery over and over again, every week, for twenty-nine thousand years- but an infinite number of other monkeys are doing the same thing at the same time, and always have been. Not only are there other versions of you out there, who are better looking and richer, but there are also versions exactly the same as you, with precisely the same memories and thoughts. And endless number of them, actually. In an infinite universe, the impossible is inevitable. In an infinite number of these universes, you, little old you, are the alpha and omega, the omnipotent god.
What does the existence of an infinite universe mean for us, and for all our metaphysical ideas about god and the meaning of life?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Since there is, at present, no means of communicating with any of these alternative universes, I'm not sure why their existence matters to me.
And, come to that, if there WERE a means of communicating, I'm not sure that I would be bothered to do so, much less to go "there", since I doubt that there would be anyone to talk to, beyond the "oh, hey, you're here! Isn't this FUN?" sort of pointless chatter.
I've done enough sightseeing, thank you.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Infinity is an artefact of human perception I think. Like seeing objects in 11 dimensions, and warping space-time. Or that light is a particle and wave both, and also has a specific speed, is in quantum amounts, yet sort seems like the quanta can be split sometimes. et cetera.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Cosmic inflation predicts an infinite universe, in which there exist in reality infinitely many infinite universes.
I'm very interested in this particular idea - anyone have any links that might be instructional for an interested lay person?
I've heard of the idea of multiple universes as a way to resolve the fact of quantum randomness (i.e. very quantum "choice" between multiple outcomes results in a new universe where each possibility is realized), but I gather that the idea of multiple universes that could result from cosmic inflation is a completely different idea. From what I've heard, different parts of the initial universe will expand at different rates and lead to multiple, infinitely expanding universes. Or something like that. Although I'm pretty sure that it's no foregone conclusion that there are infinitely many infinite universes.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Cosmic inflation predicts an infinite universe, in which there exist in reality infinitely many infinite universes.
An infinite number of universes would be the prediction of some cosmological models. No cosmological model with any scientific support predicts that this universe is infinite. Neither parts of your statement are predictions of cosmic inflation.
Inflation relates to this universe and describes a very large but finite universe - as the linked BBC article put it, when inflation finished the universe was the size of a marble, which is a long way short of infinite.
There are a range of multi-verse cosmological models. Not all of those models predict an infinite number of universes (though, some do). It should be noted that all the universes in such multi-verse models are themselves finite. And, at present, there is no strong evidence to prefer one of the multi-verse cosmological models over the others, or over a single universe model.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Link please to the statement that cosmic inflation 'predicts' an infinite universe (multiverse) any more than the big bang does.
Apart from common sense: you don't get something for nothing.
And the impossible, like life, is still impossible.
And no, reality doesn't bifurcate with every quantum 'choice'.
And no, there aren't an infinite number of white Toyatas on infinite drives through infinite windows with infinite tumblers, wine glasses and bottles from infinite last nights.
And no, in a multiverse thought by God, He's still God, I'm not.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Cosmic inflation predicts an infinite universe, in which there exist in reality infinitely many infinite universes. In this infinite universe, strange and wonderful things are real. Cantorian infinity gives us an infinite number of infinities, each infinitely bigger than the last. Not only does there really exist at this very moment a monkey randomly finishing the last typewritten full-stop of the Complete Works of Shakespeare- an event so mathematically improbable that it equates to the chances of one single person winning the lottery over and over again, every week, for twenty-nine thousand years- but an infinite number of other monkeys are doing the same thing at the same time, and always have been. Not only are there other versions of you out there, who are better looking and richer, but there are also versions exactly the same as you, with precisely the same memories and thoughts. And endless number of them, actually. In an infinite universe, the impossible is inevitable. In an infinite number of these universes, you, little old you, are the alpha and omega, the omnipotent god.
Do you believe this?
I don't mean 'do you believe that some currently popular cosmologies predict it', but 'do you actually think that it's true'?
If my personal incredulity means anything (probably not) I think I would find it harder to believe in an infinite number of finite beings just happening to exist, than in a single infinite being existing. At least God is in nature a sufficiently different concept to everything else we know about that postulating concepts about him that are hard to conceive, such as eternal existence* and infinity awareness is not manifestly absurd. If God exists he necessarily must stretch the limits of our credulity.
It isn't obviously true that the existence of Yorick implies an infinite number of identical versions of him, along with an infinite number of each of identical versions of each of the infinite number of variations on the theme of Yorick. To believe that runs contrary to my idea of what all my experience of Yorick-like beings tells me, whereas believing extravagant claims about God is one and the same with believing in God at all. That doesn't mean that these cosmological infinities aren't true, just that, to me, they are nowhere near as credible as the idea of divine infinity.
(*especially beginninglessness - endlessness is easier to conceive. Possibly because I can see a lot of things that haven't ended yet, and can imagine them indefinitely prolonged, but have never seen anything that didn't once start somewhere.)
[ 27. March 2014, 07:31: Message edited by: Eliab ]
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I have come across jokey proofs of God based on the infinite multiverse, along the lines of: in an infinite multiverse, anything that can happen will happen. It is possible that God exists, therefore God exists.
However, others point out that maybe this can be applied to other gods as well. Is it possible (therefore certain) that Zeus exists? I don't know really.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I have come across jokey proofs of God based on the infinite multiverse, along the lines of: in an infinite multiverse, anything that can happen will happen. It is possible that God exists, therefore God exists.
However, others point out that maybe this can be applied to other gods as well. Is it possible (therefore certain) that Zeus exists? I don't know really.
Not really. The added assumption is usually that God necessarily exists, a contingent God (who just happened to exist) wouldn't be the 'true' God. Whether God so defined is the Christian or Muslim god, or Brahma or Zeus or whatever would keep clever theologians and philosophers busy on every planet with sentient life in every galaxy of every universe.
Also there could be an infinite number of universes but that doesn't mean that everything that could happen does. Maybe all the universes are identical because that is all that can happen. Which would make communicating with them very boring.
And is the number infinite or unbounded? For example if you start with one thing and keep creating extra ones you never get an infinite number (mathematically at least), you get an unbounded number, i.e. you can't set a maximum to how many there are because it can always get bigger but it is always a finite number.
I'll leave understanding the multiverse until I understand my new mobile phone - that's enough of a challenge.
[ 27. March 2014, 08:48: Message edited by: que sais-je ]
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I have come across jokey proofs of God based on the infinite multiverse, along the lines of: in an infinite multiverse, anything that can happen will happen. It is possible that God exists, therefore God exists.
As far as what (if anything) an infinite multi-verse says about the existance of God the arguments fall flat.
Option one: (as jokily pointed out) there is a small probability that God exists, therefore in an infinite multi-verse He must exist.
Option two: there is zero probability of God existing, therefore you do not need to invoke an infinite multi-verse to explain the non-existance of God.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Surely this is an easy one. Any multivers is part of nature, and God is Super (ie external to) nature.
No matter how many universes exist, God is outside and the creator of them all. He creates any and all of them in His way and with His processes.
I like my God BIG!
[ 27. March 2014, 14:51: Message edited by: deano ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I don't see how God is external to nature or outside it, since 'external' and 'outside' are naturalistic terms.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I have come across jokey proofs of God based on the infinite multiverse, along the lines of: in an infinite multiverse, anything that can happen will happen. It is possible that God exists, therefore God exists.
As far as what (if anything) an infinite multi-verse says about the existance of God the arguments fall flat.
Option one: (as jokily pointed out) there is a small probability that God exists, therefore in an infinite multi-verse He must exist.
Option two: there is zero probability of God existing, therefore you do not need to invoke an infinite multi-verse to explain the non-existance of God.
This reminded me of this scene from The Big Bang Theory. Couldn't find the entire scene on YouTube. The text from IMDB is the best I can do.
Penny: [dancing and singing along to the radio] "I'm goin' out tonight / I'm feelin' alright /Gonna let it all hang out / Wanna make some noise really raise my voice / Yeah, I wanna scream and shout. Ah. No-" Morning, Sheldon. Come dance with me.
Sheldon Cooper: No.
Penny: Why not?
Sheldon Cooper: [turns radio off] Penny, while I subscribe to the "Many Worlds" theory which posits the existence of an infinite number of Sheldons in an infinite number of universes, I assure you that in none of them am I dancing.
Penny: Are you fun in any of them?
Sheldon Cooper: The math would suggest that in a few I'm a clown made of candy. But I don't dance.
-The Big Bang Theory
The Gothowitz Deviation (2009)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't see how God is external to nature or outside it, since 'external' and 'outside' are naturalistic terms.
Well try different words then. God created the universe, so is not part of the creation (other than the Incarnation of course)
God is logically prior to the created universe, the unioverse exists because of God, not the other way round.
God created time and space and is therefore not located at any point inside time and space.
Or a very old analogy, God is the "author" of the universe. The relationship between God and the world is in some ways analogous to the relationship between a book and its author. Which page of David Copperfield is Dickens on? All of them, and none of them. Does that mean he is somehow distributed through the book like thinly spread butter? Not at all, he is equally the author of every page, and equally (if metaphorically) present on every page. Which part of the universe, whioch location in time and space, is God in? All of them, and none of them. Does that mean God is somehow distributed through the world like thinly spread butter? Not at all, he is equally the creator of every event, and equally (if metaphorically) present throughout time and space.
And just as the last page of a book is no further from or nearer to the author than the first page is, so no place in the unioverse (even Mixoco) is nearer of further from God. And no time is either - as the world we live in gets older we do not get further away from God's act of creation.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I think we should always distinguish between the speculations of cosmologists (what they think is possible) and the actual science involved (what is known to be true). Sure, God could create multiple universes (or set up a mechanism that would do so), but "could" is not "did" and is certainly not "is know to have done so".
Likewise, at a somewhat smaller scale, we do not at present know that there is any life anywhere in the universe other than here on Earth. Many people would love to be believe that these is life elsewhere (and beyond that, intelligent life), but the evidence is not (notice the use of present tense) available.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Sheldon Cooper: [turns radio off] Penny, while I subscribe to the "Many Worlds" theory which posits the existence of an infinite number of Sheldons in an infinite number of universes, I assure you that in none of them am I dancing.
Penny: Are you fun in any of them?
Sheldon Cooper: The math would suggest that in a few I'm a clown made of candy. But I don't dance.
-The Big Bang Theory
The Gothowitz Deviation (2009)
By this, may I conclude that the nature of God is the same in all universes, if many exist? if so, we are in agreement, unless the nature of God varies with whatever physical laws might operate, which I do not accept. Outside of time and space, located in what we clumsily call heaven or eternity.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
I'm very interested in this particular idea - anyone have any links that might be instructional for an interested lay person?
This article in Edge by Andrei Linde one of the leading Inflation theorists might help.
Andrei Linde
This video of him getting the news on the new discoveries is great:
Andrei Linde getting the news of BICEP 2
I saw Andrei Linde speak on the topic in 1990 or 91 in Fermilab. (Not that I understood what he was saying, I was an undergrad).
I was really excited on hearing the news about the new discovery. (Evidence of gravitational waves due to inflation in the CMB)
And I find that it is almost staggeringly amazing that we can get observational evidence on the conditions before the "Big Bang".
The Chaotic Inflation idea postulates a very Large Multiverse , many "Universe bubbles" that cannot communicate with each other.
It is not clear that it is actually an infinite number or that they come in an infinite number of different versions which could affect
the debate we are having. If this theory is true the number is at least very large.
For me a big implication is that this is very embarrassing for "Big Bang" denialists or YECcies but it won't stop them since they are not big on evidence.
Other less well constrained versions of God
can easily adapt to fit with this discovery because the way they are defined they can be adapted to fit anything .
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
This article in Edge by Andrei Linde one of the leading Inflation theorists might help.
Andrei Linde
Wonderful read, thank you for linking to it.
quote:
The Chaotic Inflation idea postulates a very Large Multiverse , many "Universe bubbles" that cannot communicate with each other.
It is not clear that it is actually an infinite number or that they come in an infinite number of different versions which could affect
the debate we are having. If this theory is true the number is at least very large.
"At least very large" is an understatement, and then some.
I don't think any cosmologist would use the word "infinite". The Linde article gives some staggeringly big numbers, but that's still not infinite. Quite likely unbounded (as que sais-je said).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
This article in Edge by Andrei Linde one of the leading Inflation theorists might help.
Andrei Linde
Wonderful read, thank you for linking to it.
Yes, very readable and interesting. I love getting glimpses into how scientific theories develop over time. Thank you.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I have come across jokey proofs of God based on the infinite multiverse, along the lines of: in an infinite multiverse, anything that can happen will happen. It is possible that God exists, therefore God exists.
However, others point out that maybe this can be applied to other gods as well. Is it possible (therefore certain) that Zeus exists? I don't know really.
It's only jokey if infinite multiverses are jokey (and I reckon they are). But given infinite multiverses the syllogism goes a bit like this:
If there are an infinite number of multiverses, God exists in one of them;
If God exists in one of them, he exists in all of them,
Therefore God exists.
The second premise works where your definition of God is the creator of all matter and all energy (where "all" means all anywhere you find the stuff, which includes, by definition, every multiverse).
You can thank Alvin Plantinga for that one. It's a counterpoint to atheists who use speculation about the multiverse to weaken the argument for design from fine tuning. If there are an infinite number of multiverses, one must have come out fine tuned for life, so you don't need a designer. As Plantinga argues, that solves one problem for an atheist but opens up others.
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Cosmic inflation predicts an infinite universe, in which there exist in reality infinitely many infinite universes. In this infinite universe, strange and wonderful things are real. Cantorian infinity gives us an infinite number of infinities, each infinitely bigger than the last. Not only does there really exist at this very moment a monkey randomly finishing the last typewritten full-stop of the Complete Works of Shakespeare- an event so mathematically improbable that it equates to the chances of one single person winning the lottery over and over again, every week, for twenty-nine thousand years- but an infinite number of other monkeys are doing the same thing at the same time, and always have been. Not only are there other versions of you out there, who are better looking and richer, but there are also versions exactly the same as you, with precisely the same memories and thoughts. And endless number of them, actually. In an infinite universe, the impossible is inevitable. In an infinite number of these universes, you, little old you, are the alpha and omega, the omnipotent god.
This is simply false, even in terms of cosmic inflation theories. It confuses completely different ideas about the multiverse, namely inflationary domains and parallel worlds. The posited (still not in any way proven) infinity of various inflationary domains outside of the observable domain that we inhabit is logically commensurate with the infinity of possible arrangements of natural constants. That's actually what chaotic inflation is constructed for. In other words, in practically all these other hypothesised inflationary domains (other "universes", if one wishes to talk like that) there are neither monkeys typing Shakespeare nor richer versions of oneself nor anything like that. They are instead devoid of life. There would be some that have life, but nothing like life as we know it. Once more, the deal here is that physics as we know it is changing across these domains. And it is not true that "infinite" means "all is possible". For example, the number of integers is infinite, but integers do not exhaust all the possibilities for numbers. The infinity of possible changes of physics "eat up" the infinity of domains in the corresponding cosmological speculations, by construction. The parallel universe type of interpretation Yorick is going on about is more connected to the "many worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics, which really was not touched by the recent observations at all.
Furthermore, it is simply not true that recent experimental evidence has proven the inflationary multiverse. It may have proven inflation, or at least some process of blowing up quantum fluctuations to cosmic scales. But it does not follow at all that there is anything apart from our own physics domain, which has been inflated. It is a theory that provides some mechanistic explanation of why inflation occurs, which suggests that there is a multiverse of different inflationary domains. But unless these "expansion bubbles" actually start to intersect and hence become visible to each other, the existence of these infinitely many inflationary domains is simply a complete speculation justified merely by being able to state a general mechanism, it is not demonstrated by any empirical evidence and cannot be. All one can say concerning the recent experimental evidence is that it is compatible with the ideas of Linde et al., it does not demonstrate them as true. Nor will any other experiments unless there is some intersection of inflationary domains that we can observe (which by the way, would be utter horror and we should pray that such intersection of entirely different physics happens nowhere near to us - it almost certainly would be destructive beyond comprehension, truly world-eating).
We probably have evidence of some kind of inflationary process and some kind of quantum gravity now. That's the - almost certainly Noble prize worthy - message form BICEPS2. The situation as far as multiverses go has not changed much.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
You can thank Alvin Plantinga for that one. It's a counterpoint to atheists who use speculation about the multiverse to weaken the argument for design from fine tuning. If there are an infinite number of multiverses, one must have come out fine tuned for life, so you don't need a designer. As Plantinga argues, that solves one problem for an atheist but opens up others.
Yes - I've always thought it was a weak argument. If God is a complex and unprovable hypothesis for the fine tuning of the universe then what makes an infinite (or unbounded) number of multiverses any less complex and unprovable?
Anyway, a great Sci-Fi novel on this subject is: The Long Earth which is based on the idea of being able to jump between all the gazillion other Earths in the multiverse.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
If God's kingdom grows, and what happens in the physical universe mirrors what happens in the spiritual dimension, it's logical that the universe will expand.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Grokesx
Shipmate
# 17221
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Posted
quote:
As Plantinga argues, that solves one problem for an atheist but opens up others.
Except it doesn't, as IngoB lucidly explains. Positing an infinity of universes/multiverses each with different physics is not the same as saying that everything you can possibly imagine (which is all defining God in a particular way for the purposes of argument boils down to) necessarily exists in at least one of them.
That said, chaotic inflation theory is interesting in its own right; as a defense against God it is a non starter, because no theory can stand against eternal re-definition of imaginary entities ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
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