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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How to solve the UK's teen pregnancy problem?
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Oh, well, that settles it. I`m guessing you`ve never been to the Moon either, so obviously the Moon landings were fake.
Bad analogy. There is persuasive evidence that the moon landings were genuine. There is plenty of evidence that what is euphemistically called polyamory doesn't work and is a thoroughly bad thing. That also tallies with what I have seen. I have not seen anything that favours polyamory. Mere assertions by people that they would like it to work, know someone who has been in two short term relationships simultaneously, that it must work because it's unconventional and they favour anything that's unconventional or they would like to try it, do not suffice. The evidence against it has long ago convinced me that it is unlikely to work either ethically or practically.
So my friends' happy, loving, exploitation-free polyamorous relationship was just imaginary then?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
So my friends' happy, loving, exploitation-free polyamorous relationship was just imaginary then?
I can't comment. I've never met them. I can only speak for what I can speak of.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Do you think so? Presumably the Victorian period was more sexually conservative than, say, the Georgian period? Possibly so were the 1950s compared to the 1920s. I wonder whether it's always a one-way street?
Hmmm , maybe I was on a bit of a -- I don't know what it's all coming to -- type rant.
Sexual liberation is of course in a constant state of flux . I don't suppose even the most liberated 21stC sexual experimentalist could teach an Ancient Roman any more about sex than he/she already knew.
There's often a tendency to believe, probably wrongly, that everything has become wildly out of control for today's teenagers sexwise, and this therefore renders them incapable of informed choice.
I mean is the problem here teenagers getting pregnant or is the continuing prevalence of unwanted pregnancies ? Maybe the angst is evolving more out of society's changing attitude to procreation in general given population growth since the 60s.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
So my friends' happy, loving, exploitation-free polyamorous relationship was just imaginary then?
I can't comment. I've never met them. I can only speak for what I can speak of.
That isn't a problem. It is when your argument then says "I've not seen it so it doesn't exist"
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
What also doesn't get touched on is that apparently the "hookup culture" is a *matriarchy* in practice. If you look into the Red Pill material out there - specifically the Men Going Their Own Way side... there's been a lot of deconstruction on what 2 generations down from 2nd Wave Feminism (gender feminism) has wrought.
1st wave feminism corrected some systemic differences between men and women - which were definitely needed. However, on the ground you have Alpha Fucks Beta Bucks, and the definition of an Alpha Male went back to Cro-magnon era female hindbrain definitions of what is attractive.
Men generally adapt to the prevailing requirements... if neurotypical.
It's been interesting. My sociosexual development was effectively taken out of time for 30 years as a result of the sexual abuse I suffered in 1984. While the rest of me continued to develop - I traumatically ate and gained a stone a year.
I'm dealign with all this... but it's bloody annoying that just because of 3 militant cultural marxists who had daddy issues and spent time on the game - that we've got a scorched-earth curb-stomped war against men and boys going on.
And it's been found that without loving dads, boys end up raping or killing.. and girls end up fucking everything in sight to fuel narcissism...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
A fundamental reason for this is the assumption that this is the responsibility of schools, local authorities, the government etc. etc., or even parents. It seems to be regarded as in some way backward and primitive to bring up children to expect they have to take responsibility for their own lives.
Yes, there has to be some proportionality about this, but that basic principle is, or should be, accepted as fundamental, and insisted on from an early age. It's yet another version of the claim that it is the NHS or his fellow GPs' fault that Harold Shipman's murdered his patients, not Harold Shipman's. Ever, ever, ever shift responsibility onto someone else, 'them'. 'The woman gave it me and I did eat'.
If the state does think it should take some responsibility for this, why then doesn't it advocate chastity, shame and disgrace? Perhaps that might work better?
Militant feminists would argue that "it's the fault of patriarchy" - which according to Cultural Marxist terms means... men.
So a boy gets a girl pregnant - it's his fault.
She forces herself on him - "he raped her".
As he was a member of a pore powerful class - or something. MGTOW forums are working to deconstruct all this - and it's so full of doublethink, blackwhite, and other Newspeak - it's really weird.
Men's issues cannot be brought up as "it is oppressing" yet feminists are "fighting for equality".
"She made me eat" "The snake made me eat. Why did you put the trees there then?"
My head hurts..
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
So my friends' happy, loving, exploitation-free polyamorous relationship was just imaginary then?
Is "was" used intentionally in this sentence? One commonly held value about relationships is that they last and continue, i.e., "is". What was the duration of this relationship?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
That isn't a problem. It is when your argument then says "I've not seen it so it doesn't exist"
Yebbut. I am saying I have seen enough relationships to find it very hard to believe that such does exist. Certainly, I don't think teenage children in schools should be encouraged to imagine that this is a remotely viable life choice.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
To return to a point made by IngoB earlier, the "problem" of teenage pregnancy is one our culture has created. Biologically speaking, mid-to-late teens is an ideal time for the female human body to procreate.
No, late teens/early twenties is the ideal time. There are lots of complications associated with bearing children before the woman is physically and mentally finished developing. Smaller bodies endure greater strain during childbirth causing many problems that have been observed among young teen births in parts of the world where these are still common.
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Social norms make distinctions between "legitimate" and "illegitimate" children (much less true these days than formerly, but there's still societal & legal "hangover");
Religious norms against children outside of marriage are significantly stronger than any social ones I am aware of, at least in the UK.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
So my friends' happy, loving, exploitation-free polyamorous relationship was just imaginary then?
Is "was" used intentionally in this sentence? One commonly held value about relationships is that they last and continue, i.e., "is". What was the duration of this relationship?
As I said in a previous comment, one of the partners sadly passed away. The others are still in a relationship, but it's no longer polyamorous since there's only the two of them left.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
A fundamental reason for this is the assumption that this is the responsibility of schools, local authorities, the government etc. etc., or even parents. It seems to be regarded as in some way backward and primitive to bring up children to expect they have to take responsibility for their own lives.
Yes, there has to be some proportionality about this, but that basic principle is, or should be, accepted as fundamental, and insisted on from an early age. It's yet another version of the claim that it is the NHS or his fellow GPs' fault that Harold Shipman's murdered his patients, not Harold Shipman's. Ever, ever, ever shift responsibility onto someone else, 'them'. 'The woman gave it me and I did eat'.
If the state does think it should take some responsibility for this, why then doesn't it advocate chastity, shame and disgrace? Perhaps that might work better?
Militant feminists would argue that "it's the fault of patriarchy" - which according to Cultural Marxist terms means... men.
So a boy gets a girl pregnant - it's his fault.
She forces herself on him - "he raped her".
As he was a member of a pore powerful class - or something. MGTOW forums are working to deconstruct all this - and it's so full of doublethink, blackwhite, and other Newspeak - it's really weird.
Men's issues cannot be brought up as "it is oppressing" yet feminists are "fighting for equality".
"She made me eat" "The snake made me eat. Why did you put the trees there then?"
My head hurts..
The patriarchy is a societal system which favours men as a gender over women, not individual men. This is a fairly key concept for feminism in general, not just 'militant' feminism (whatever that's supposed to mean). Certainly no actual real feminist (I mean that in the real-life sense not the No True Scotsman sense, since your 'militant feminist' is just a strawman) would say that consensual sex between teenagers is 'the man's fault' or rape, and it's deeply offensive to the many feminist rape survivors out there to suggest that they would.
The main feminist narrative re teenage pregnancy now would be the existence of the kyriarchy, or intersecting areas of oppression, eg classism and racism as well as sexism.
What are MGTOW boards?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Social norms make distinctions between "legitimate" and "illegitimate" children (much less true these days than formerly, but there's still societal & legal "hangover");
Religious norms against children outside of marriage are significantly stronger than any social ones I am aware of, at least in the UK.
Religious affiliation, observance, and practice form a substantial part of human social behavior (even more so in the past) as well as informing society's legal institutions.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
That isn't a problem. It is when your argument then says "I've not seen it so it doesn't exist"
Yebbut. I am saying I have seen enough relationships to find it very hard to believe that such does exist. Certainly, I don't think teenage children in schools should be encouraged to imagine that this is a remotely viable life choice.
And I've seen enough "traditional" marriages that end in divorce to convince me it doesn't work either. I honestly don't think teens should be encouraged to consider it a good life choice either.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
I had a lot of lads and one family friend who appeared at (i think) every 16yr old birthday and presented them with condoms. Shock technique par excellance.
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
[She was a school nurse and everso slightly fed up with the amount of STDs that she had to sort out, day in day out.]
The genie is indeed out of the bottle.
But on the plus side we longer live in a culture where Lots of people pretended and lied. We no longer remove babies from their teenaged and single parents. No longer are young girls sent off to Stay With Our Grandparents To Help Them For A While; euphamism much. I know quite a few children who were brought up by another family member posing as a parent, only for the whole sorry story to come out later and cause mayhem.
What on earth did this type of an attitude to 'dealing with teenage pregnancies' get us? Cover ups and deceptions, guilt and heart break, sorrow and pain.
Of course i would rather that my children followed Christ, waited and all that and then did, or in this case did Not do, the right thing.
But we live in a broken world and the sooner we face that, the sooner we learn to live happier lives. In the bigger picture, is a teenage pregnancy really that very bad? Is it really terrible that girls marry at 18 and give birth at 19? I don't think so. I for one would far rather that than a return to cover ups and forced alternatives.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Is it really terrible that girls marry at 18 and give birth at 19? I don't think so.
Marry who? An older man, because it's difficult to earn enough and have a stable enough living situation until one is 25+ in the UK these days.
Back in the days of teenage brides, the groom was usually much older. The reason of course was that girls having sex before marriage is EVIL and NASTY but boys being made to wait until they are older is OK as everyone will just cast a blind eye to their premarital indiscretions.
Marriages between teens have high failure rates, so that's not a good option either.
From the NY Times:
"Studies show that today teenage marriages are two to three times more likely to end in divorce than are marriages between people 25 years of age and older. The most comprehensive study on marriage and age that sociologists cite was published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 2001, from 1995 data, and it found that 48 percent of those who marry before 18 are likely to divorce within 10 years, compared with 24 percent of those who marry after age 25."
NY Times
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
[She was a school nurse and everso slightly fed up with the amount of STDs that she had to sort out, day in day out.]
The genie is indeed out of the bottle.
But on the plus side we longer live in a culture where Lots of people pretended and lied. We no longer remove babies from their teenaged and single parents. No longer are young girls sent off to Stay With Our Grandparents To Help Them For A While; euphamism much. I know quite a few children who were brought up by another family member posing as a parent, only for the whole sorry story to come out later and cause mayhem.
What on earth did this type of an attitude to 'dealing with teenage pregnancies' get us? Cover ups and deceptions, guilt and heart break, sorrow and pain.
Of course i would rather that my children followed Christ, waited and all that and then did, or in this case did Not do, the right thing.
But we live in a broken world and the sooner we face that, the sooner we learn to live happier lives. In the bigger picture, is a teenage pregnancy really that very bad? Is it really terrible that girls marry at 18 and give birth at 19? I don't think so. I for one would far rather that than a return to cover ups and forced alternatives.
Of course, following Christ and having premarital sex (or indeed becoming pregnant as a teenager) are not mutually exclusive things. It's not that I doubt the good intentions behind your feelings, but the suggestion that one's status as a Christian is reliant on one's sexual behaviour is a problematic idea, and particularly for young, socially-disadvantaged women - rich white pastors somehow get away with a lot more! I'm not saying that you would necessarily call into question the faith of someone who sees no problem with premarital sex, but 'I am a Christian therefore I don't have sex before marriage' easily leads to 'they have sex before marriage therefore they are not Christians' and that is a problem.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Indeed.
I agree.
And on the contrary i would only call into question someone who pontifiactes about sex and make's the doing or the not doing it equal to or above salvation.
Which it is not.
As a nation we appear to have our knickers in a proverbial knot about sex.
If not Christian we want to know who's doing it with whom and how often.
If Christian, 'the church' often seems to be saying 'Don't coz it's bad for you" or "Do coz it's good for you" . Only then justifying these sentances depending on who we are talking to and how ready we think they are to Really Understand It All.
Meanwhile the teenagers yawn and do as teenagers always have done: which is usually to dream about The One. Unless by then they are so jaded that they have given up on The One and just hope to get through to some random age in the future with as few visits to the clinic as possible. Which some achieve by abstaining and that's good. Others achieve by being honest and at least talking about it; and i actually think that's OK. And others reach their wedding day by pretending and having to lie to their parents all the while crossing their fingers and hoping to goodness that their gf isn't preggers. Because apparently that's gonna upset half the congregation.
Why?
Since when has new life if the mum and / or the dad is a teen always got to be a disaster?
But encouraging teenagers to decieve the adults in their lives Is a disaster,in my books anyway)
[ 07. April 2014, 16:34: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
....rich white pastors somehow get away with a lot more!
It's not a fact, so why do you present it as such without an appropriate "some?" Where's your evidence Jade?
It's a pretty obnoxious and unpleasant comment to those of us who aim to live in such a way as to help others not harm them.
[code]
[ 09. April 2014, 04:58: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
....rich white pastors somehow get away with a lot more!
It's not a fact, so why do you present it as such without an appropriate "some?" Where's your evidence Jade?
It's a pretty obnoxious and unpleasant comment to those of us who aim to live in such a way as to help others not harm them.
[code]
I wasn't aware that SoF required a referencing system. I also don't understand why you seem to have some kind of personal problem with me and express that by asking for evidence, when lots of other posters post in a similar way to me but are not harangued by yourself.
But I feel there is some misunderstanding here - by 'rich white pastors' I meant disgraced megachurch pastors, and I'm sure you're familiar with those people (but re evidence, an example would be Doug Philips, a Dominionist church elder in San Antonio, Texas, who manipulated his very young nanny into having an affair with him and is still being defended by many of his followers). Also more generally, rich white men in power get away with more because society lets them get away with more in general - it's not hard to see that a poor black teenager like Trayvon Martin can't walk down the road without dying, but Jordan Belfort, a criminal but a rich white criminal, gets lauded in film.
Certainly, I wouldn't categorise yourself or any British Nonconformist pastor or elder as a rich white pastor! It's not a job that gives much riches over here, and I would have thought you'd know that from experience ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
....rich white pastors somehow get away with a lot more!
It's not a fact, so why do you present it as such without an appropriate "some?" Where's your evidence Jade?
It's a pretty obnoxious and unpleasant comment to those of us who aim to live in such a way as to help others not harm them.
[code]
I wasn't aware that SoF required a referencing system.
It is classic in Purgatory to be asked to cite one's sources. I would not interpret this as a personal criticism.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
....rich white pastors somehow get away with a lot more!
It's not a fact, so why do you present it as such without an appropriate "some?" Where's your evidence Jade?
It's a pretty obnoxious and unpleasant comment to those of us who aim to live in such a way as to help others not harm them.
[code]
I wasn't aware that SoF required a referencing system.
It is classic in Purgatory to be asked to cite one's sources. I would not interpret this as a personal criticism.
I realise that, but it has happened more often than not outside of Purg.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
And others reach their wedding day by pretending and having to lie to their parents all the while crossing their fingers and hoping to goodness that their gf isn't preggers. Because apparently that's gonna upset half the congregation.
Why?
Since when has new life if the mum and / or the dad is a teen always got to be a disaster?
On the whole, British young people have no great difficulty jettisoning their parents' religious values, so that's not really the issue.
More generally, the problem is that single teenaged motherhood seems not to lead to great outcomes. It can do, of course, if there's a supportive community. But if everyone else is doing the same and poverty is part of the mix, as it often is...?
Many girls think they have no better options, which I think is the real tragedy.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Sadly i disagree, some children Do have a hard time jettisoning their parents values and that is where it can get tricky.
Coz if teenage pregancies are to be avoided, there are only a few options:
1)Just don't have sex; a theory that's not always followed through in practice.
2)Make the decision in advance to obtain/ keep/use contraception; But the church says that's wrong and some parents go ballistic.
3)Go for the morning after pill/ termination; this is for emergencies only. But more and more make use of this.
4)If pregnant, go to term; but apparently that's now wrong too (convince me)
It's stark options facing our young people especially as the world and its neighbour tells them that Everyone's at it while the evening television positively ooze sex appeal all through the adverts. Our teens need our prayers, our care and our support. It's a damn hard ole world out there sometimes.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
'I am a Christian therefore I don't have sex before marriage' easily leads to 'they have sex before marriage therefore they are not Christians' and that is a problem.
If (a) sex before marriage is a sin and (b) a person is having pre-marital sex, then the correct deduction is that that person is sinning, not that that person is non-Christian.
If we exclude sinners from our ranks, the pews (and the pulpits) will be pretty empty.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Some children Do have a hard time jettisoning their parents values and that is where it can get tricky.
Obviously, some families and some communities present teenagers with a much stricter religious environment than others, and that may well cause difficulties if they want to be like their non-religious peers, or fit in with the wider culture.
However, in the British case I'm really not convinced that this represents the situation for anywhere near the majority of teenagers. Not for the indigenous population, anyway.
There are British teenagers far more in need of support than middle class evangelical ones.
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