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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dignitas
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
Really upset about the 89 year old lady who was put to death at the Dignitas "clinic" in Switzerland. She was not suffering from a terminal illness nor was she severely I'll or disabled. She felt that she couldn't cope with modern life ie computers, mobile phones etc. I am a bit younger but also feel helpless and alone in the face of advancing technology.
I suspect that she was depressed and probably lonely.
Is this what assisted suicide is about?
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Another failure of the Church.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
Martin, can you expand on that? I would like to help people like this lady but wonder how to stand against this in a real and practical way. Surely life is not for discarding?
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Here is a link to the story.
quote:
" Anne, of Sussex, had suffered with heart and lung disease in recent years and was concerned her condition could worsen, leaving her in a nursing home or enduring a lengthy hospital stay.
In her request to the clinic she said her lack of energy and declining health left her with “a life with no enviable future.”
I have plenty of sympathy with her. I would very much like to choose when and how to go - and, in her circumstances, would be more than happy to pop off to Dignitas to do so.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
The last of the freedoms you can exercise is when to end your life on your terms.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
I'm with Boogie. I would like my life to end when I choose, and I too would go to Dignitas or somewhere like it. Is 'life at any cost' really the way we should be living? Years and years of 'half life' in a home, irrespective of her dislike of the modern world, is surely what this lady wanted to avoid.
I doubt it was as simple as showing her how to use a computer, or drawing her in to the modern world, or making her feel wanted and not a burden. I try endlessly to talk my mother (only in her 70s) to become a 'silver surfer', but she's adamant that computers don't interest her (not even iPads, which I think would be ideal with her disability). No matter how much I talk up the advantages and offer to help her learn to use one, she refuses. Perhaps this lady was like that.
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The church is supposed to fill the gaps in the net. But as you say leo. It's ONLY human.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Yam-pk
Shipmate
# 12791
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Posted
I have some customers who phone in about the most simple of computer problems to whom I would gladly give a one-way ticket to this establishment ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 472 | From: The Grim North | Registered: Jul 2007
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I'm a little suspicious of the emphasis in this story. The Daily Mail reports:
quote:
As she grew older, her health became increasingly poor and she suffered from heart and lung disease.
She described a recent 11-day stint in hospital as ‘unadulterated hell’ and lived in fear of ending up in a nursing home.
I suspect that this weighed more heavily on her mind as she contemplated suicide than her failure to grasp the internet. Lots of people in this country manage to live without computer wizardry.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
She was able to sightsee in Zurich with her niece a day or so before being killed. This does not sound like someone whose health was so poor that death was to be welcomed. I'm glad that assisted suicide is still illegal I'm the UK.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
According to the press reports, she has recently spent time in hospital and was expecting that to become more common - either that or a care home. These are options that are offered to us because of the technology we have made relatively common in the West. This lady would have grown up in a world where the first serious illness of old age would most likely be the last, where if care was available it would be at home for those last couple of days, most likely those last days would be spent in the care of family.
Is it really an advance when people spend their last days, sometimes stretching months or years, in a hospital ward or care home with drugs and machines dragging out those last hours, regimented visiting times and mostly surrounded by strangers. Is it better for their family to have the memories of the last days of loved ones to be sterile rooms with instruments monitoring and slowing a slow descent to the inevitable. Or, to have a day together doing those things you love and leave this world with those memories of the end for those left behind.
They are questions that aren't easy. And, because they aren't easy questions that also means that the decision to step out of this life isn't one that can be taken lightly.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
How does all this sound to an elderly person in declining health about to go into hospital or care home? Will it be unadulterated hell? (no, it is the duty of the staff to ensure comfort, dignity, pain relief if required and meaningful activity to the limits possible). On the other hand, we can just all give IP and put the old dears to sleep, they're too much trouble and expense and they'll be so much happier dead.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
The last of the freedoms you can exercise is when to end your life on your terms.
Yes, but bringing a third party into it considerably changes the moral dynamic.
A person has the right to masturbate. However, if he loses both his arms in an accident, it does not follow that he has the right to have a medical practitioner masturbate him. I think we could all come up with a few good reasons why.
My reasons for opposing assisted suicide are similar to the reason that some people oppose capital punishment, ie. the people who worry about an innocent person being executed. It's not that they think the execution of your typical murderer is a particularly horrific act. Rather, it's that by allowing such executions to take place, you increase the risk of abuse and error, ultimately harming innocent people.
By the same token, if someone compassionately fulfilled his dying mother's request to be smothered with a pillow, I wouldn't neccessarily think he was a bad guy. But I still don't want those actions(or equivalent actions by medical staff) made legal. The potential for abuse, conflict-of-interest, etc are just too high.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I suspect news stories about the sort of people sometimes employed in care homes might have had something to do with it. as well.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Yes, but bringing a third party into it considerably changes the moral dynamic.
I see this as the problem. I suspect that killing people who ask to be killed has some sort of effect on the one who kills.
Unless someone is completely paralyzed, they can kill themselves. I have no problem with giving a suicidal person the means to kill themselves, but they should be the ones to do it.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
How does all this sound to an elderly person in declining health about to go into hospital or care home? Will it be unadulterated hell? (no, it is the duty of the staff to ensure comfort, dignity, pain relief if required and meaningful activity to the limits possible). On the other hand, we can just all give IP and put the old dears to sleep, they're too much trouble and expense and they'll be so much happier dead.
My mother was in that situation. For a couple of months she refused to eat more than a slice of bread every couple of days and constantly told us "I want to die". She's still alive two years later. I'd say she has been terrified for every minute of it despite and the experience has been the most awful imaginable for my stepfather who's stayed with her every day. He's watched her being incontinent, trying to drag herself out of bed, trying to hit and bite care staff, fighting and screaming when the staff come to clean her or feed her.
In the earlier stages, when she could talk, he had to put up with her telling him she had never loved him, that he had betrayed her, he disgusted her, he was pathetic. I got similar treatment: what an awful son I'd been, how I'd betrayed her etc - but at least I could go home to a loving wife.
I don't know what experience Tulfes has had of watching someone he/she loves turn into a vegetable, screaming and moaning incessantly, knowing there will be no remission, no respite, just continual decline.
I wouldn't put anyone though the experience of watching it happen to me. There are young people out there suffering because of NHS shortages and overload. I've had a good life, and when it stops being good I'd like not to divert medical resources from people with a life ahead of them. I can't think of a more desirable legacy than to make a better life possible for someone.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Yes, but bringing a third party into it considerably changes the moral dynamic.
I see this as the problem. I suspect that killing people who ask to be killed has some sort of effect on the one who kills.
Unless someone is completely paralyzed, they can kill themselves. I have no problem with giving a suicidal person the means to kill themselves, but they should be the ones to do it.
Moo
Yeah, and I'll even say that if you wanna go out and get yourself a copy of Final Exit and read up on some methodologies, it's your inalienable right to do so, as long as the methodolgies are self-admninistered.
It's a bit of a grey area for me, though, where exactly helping someone acquire the materials to kill himself passes over into assisted suicide. "Holy cow, I am do depressed, I don't wanna live anymore. Hey, can I borrow that copy of Final Exit I saw on your shelf?" Does handing over the book make me a assistant to suicide?
[ 07. April 2014, 23:07: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
She was able to sightsee in Zurich with her niece a day or so before being killed. This does not sound like someone whose health was so poor that death was to be welcomed. I'm glad that assisted suicide is still illegal I'm the UK.
One of the downsides of not having such a facility in the UK is that UK residents who wish to take this route must do so whilst they are able to undertake the rigours of international travel. Were it possible to take a simple road journey to the final destination it would not be necessary to seek closure as early in one's decline as the fear of being too ill to reach Switzerland imposes.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
How does all this sound to an elderly person in declining health about to go into hospital or care home? Will it be unadulterated hell? (no, it is the duty of the staff to ensure comfort, dignity, pain relief if required and meaningful activity to the limits possible). On the other hand, we can just all give IP and put the old dears to sleep, they're too much trouble and expense and they'll be so much happier dead.
My mother was in that situation. For a couple of months she refused to eat more than a slice of bread every couple of days and constantly told us "I want to die". She's still alive two years later. I'd say she has been terrified for every minute of it despite and the experience has been the most awful imaginable for my stepfather who's stayed with her every day. He's watched her being incontinent, trying to drag herself out of bed, trying to hit and bite care staff, fighting and screaming when the staff come to clean her or feed her.
In the earlier stages, when she could talk, he had to put up with her telling him she had never loved him, that he had betrayed her, he disgusted her, he was pathetic. I got similar treatment: what an awful son I'd been, how I'd betrayed her etc - but at least I could go home to a loving wife.
I don't know what experience Tulfes has had of watching someone he/she loves turn into a vegetable, screaming and moaning incessantly, knowing there will be no remission, no respite, just continual decline.
I wouldn't put anyone though the experience of watching it happen to me. There are young people out there suffering because of NHS shortages and overload. I've had a good life, and when it stops being good I'd like not to divert medical resources from people with a life ahead of them. I can't think of a more desirable legacy than to make a better life possible for someone.
What, by kiling old people?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
What, by kiling old people?
No, by allowing those of us who, in some situations, value the lives of others more than the continuation of our own, to choose the time and manner of our own death.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
She was able to sightsee in Zurich with her niece for a day or so.
Good for her! What an excellent way to go - spend a happy day with your family then go to sleep holding their hands.
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
How does all this sound to an elderly person in declining health about to go into hospital or care home? Will it be unadulterated hell? (no, it is the duty of the staff to ensure comfort, dignity, pain relief if required and meaningful activity to the limits possible).
My Dad died six years ago. We were all with him. It was an awful death. The nurses kept trying to feed him and hydrate him. He drowned in his own fluids over 24 hours - they were so ignorant of the last stages of life it was simply appalling.
My Mum died last month, aged 93. She was at my brother's farm, her hospital bed in the kitchen. We were determined that the hospital would not do the same to her as they did my Dad - so we put in place all measures necessary to keep her at home. She took nearly two weeks to die and we were all with her. We took shifts through the night so that there was always someone by her bed.
I have never seen such a peaceful death. The district nurses were wonderful and we had drugs ready in case of pain. She never needed them, often smiling at us and reaching to touch our faces.
This is what I want for myself. If it takes a trip to Switzerland then I will do that. Sadly, many don't have that choice - they either can't afford it or have no-one to take them.
Here is an excellent article about the last stages of life, here is another.
Knowing what I know about this country and its need to prolong life for no reason whatsoever (except fear of death, which is a natural but unnecessary fear imo)I will be chosing the time and manner of mine - in many years to come, hopefully! It is hard for many healthy people to accept that a chronically or terminally ill person might choose to die rather than continue life, but it should be their right - absolutely imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Boogie wrote quote:
...Here is an excellent article about the last stages of life, here is another.
Knowing what I know about this country and its need to prolong life for no reason whatsoever (except fear of death, which is a natural but unnecessary fear imo)I will be chosing the time and manner of mine - in many years to come, hopefully! It is hard for many healthy people to accept that a chronically or terminally ill person might choose to die rather than continue life, but it should be their right - absolutely imo.
There is much concentrated wisdom in the first of those links especially, Boogie. I'd recommend anyone to read it.
I understand the point about prolonging what is a natural process that we shall all have to undergo, though it's not been my experience. My mother died at the age of 93 too - she lived in her own home right up until then, but suffered a massive stroke. Once she had been diagnosed, I remember the discussion with the registrar, and it was very much focussed on how we could make her last few days most comfortable and painless. She herself had said goodbye to her husband (my stepfather) as he died from bowel cancer in a hospice, and that was very much the philosophy there too. So it doesn't have to be the undue prolongation way, and as the concept of managed palliative care spreads I hope it becomes the norm.
Speaking of which, the presence of Dignitas in Switzerland is not an accident. Up until recently, palliative care barely existed in the public domain. If you were rich enough, or had insured against the risk, you could of course buy the facilities. Everyone else was expected to tough it out. You'll look in vain for many statistics on palliative care in Switzerland- they don't even bother to collect them.
By the way it is not necessary to be suffering from anything to end your life there. 21% of people who commit suicide there are simple "weary of life" (their phrase).
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
[One of the downsides of not having such a facility in the UK is that UK residents who wish to take this route must do so whilst they are able to undertake the rigours of international travel. Were it possible to take a simple road journey to the final destination it would not be necessary to seek closure as early in one's decline as the fear of being too ill to reach Switzerland imposes.
The niece could have facilitated her aunt's death in the UK, and faced the appropriate consequences for it, or the woman could have done it herself as she is not even terminally ill or handicapped. The reason they went to Switzerland was to have the illusion that what they were doing was OK because it's legal there.
This is a slippery slope, not in theory but in practice. Already Belgium now allows euthanizing children. So we've gone from "ending the life of the suffering old dear, she's put up with enough" to 10 year olds now as well. How a child is capable of rationally deciding he or she wishes to die is beyond me, let alone that they are not being influenced by parental pressure in the direction of euthanasia. Many doctors in Belgium protested this law, so the health community is not in support of it either.
I heard a radio program about Hungary, which has a high suicide rate, and someone mentioned that older people feel obliged to kill themselves so as not to become a burden to their families. Make assisted suicide legal here and I can assure you many older and ill people will be victimized by family pressure. And that will put doctors who work in such facilities in such a terrible moral position that frankly we should not even consider legalizing it for one second.
Article on "Anne" in OP
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
The niece could have facilitated her aunt's death in the UK, and faced the appropriate consequences for it, or the woman could have done it herself as she is not even terminally ill or handicapped.
Not with the appropriate drugs she couldn't. They are not available.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
The niece could have facilitated her aunt's death in the UK, and faced the appropriate consequences for it, or the woman could have done it herself as she is not even terminally ill or handicapped.
Not with the appropriate drugs she couldn't. They are not available.
So we're not just talking about the right to die, it's the right to die as comfortably as possible.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
[One of the downsides of not having such a facility in the UK is that UK residents who wish to take this route must do so whilst they are able to undertake the rigours of international travel. Were it possible to take a simple road journey to the final destination it would not be necessary to seek closure as early in one's decline as the fear of being too ill to reach Switzerland imposes.
The niece could have facilitated her aunt's death in the UK, and faced the appropriate consequences for it, or the woman could have done it herself as she is not even terminally ill or handicapped. The reason they went to Switzerland was to have the illusion that what they were doing was OK because it's legal there.
This is a slippery slope, not in theory but in practice. Already Belgium now allows euthanizing children. So we've gone from "ending the life of the suffering old dear, she's put up with enough" to 10 year olds now as well. How a child is capable of rationally deciding he or she wishes to die is beyond me, let alone that they are not being influenced by parental pressure in the direction of euthanasia. Many doctors in Belgium protested this law, so the health community is not in support of it either.
I heard a radio program about Hungary, which has a high suicide rate, and someone mentioned that older people feel obliged to kill themselves so as not to become a burden to their families. Make assisted suicide legal here and I can assure you many older and ill people will be victimized by family pressure. And that will put doctors who work in such facilities in such a terrible moral position that frankly we should not even consider legalizing it for one second.
Article on "Anne" in OP
In practice, the Belgian law is for those who are legally minors but have an adult mental capacity - basically teenagers, and only for those who are seriously terminally ill and in constant pain. It does seem unfair to expect a minor to put up with such suffering, but allow an adult a way out. Thorough counselling is provided to make sure the person in question has thought it through properly - no 10yo on a whim will be allowed to end their life.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
The niece could have facilitated her aunt's death in the UK, and faced the appropriate consequences for it, or the woman could have done it herself as she is not even terminally ill or handicapped.
Not with the appropriate drugs she couldn't. They are not available.
So we're not just talking about the right to die, it's the right to die as comfortably as possible.
Absolutely!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
So we're not just talking about the right to die, it's the right to die as comfortably as possible.
Yes - having a comfortable death rather than a protracted, painful and undignified deterioration is the whole point of Dignitas.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
Teenagers with an adult mental capacity? At 13? At 15? At 16? When? Who decides? Surely it would be better to put them to sleep before the age of reason, say at 3,4 or 5, to save them mental distress of choosing their own death? After all, they are a burden and won't get better. Before long, we'll be putting to death children of third generation unemployed. No chance that they will ever work or contribute.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Teenagers with an adult mental capacity? At 13? At 15? At 16? When? Who decides? Surely it would be better to put them to sleep before the age of reason, say at 3,4 or 5, to save them mental distress of choosing their own death? After all, they are a burden and won't get better.
Nonsense.
This is for the Child's sake, to prevent suffering at the end. The child id terminally ill.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Teenagers with an adult mental capacity? At 13? At 15? At 16? When? Who decides?
There's already a process in the UK whereby a teenager can be declared competent to decide on their own medical treatment despite not being an adult.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
The niece could have facilitated her aunt's death in the UK, and faced the appropriate consequences for it, or the woman could have done it herself as she is not even terminally ill or handicapped.
Not with the appropriate drugs she couldn't. They are not available.
So we're not just talking about the right to die, it's the right to die as comfortably as possible.
Well yes, dying in pain is such a great thing, isn't it?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Teenagers with an adult mental capacity? At 13? At 15? At 16? When? Who decides?
There's already a process in the UK whereby a teenager can be declared competent to decide on their own medical treatment despite not being an adult.
They cannot lawfully consent to sexual intercourse until 16. But they could be deemed capable of consenting to being killed? Also, deciding on one's medical treatment in conjunction with a doctor subject to the law and the hypocratic oath is not the same as choosing to be killed.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
You use "being killed", which, whilst not technically accurate, is an interesting choice of words. It's not for example the form of words that those seeking the services of Dignitas would be inclined to use. Why is that, do you think?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Teenagers with an adult mental capacity? At 13? At 15? At 16? When? Who decides? Surely it would be better to put them to sleep before the age of reason, say at 3,4 or 5, to save them mental distress of choosing their own death? After all, they are a burden and won't get better. Before long, we'll be putting to death children of third generation unemployed. No chance that they will ever work or contribute.
No-one is making any such suggestion. Why not stick to the facts, that in some cases, in Belgium, teenagers with incurable, terminal conditions that render them in constant pain can seek to end their lives slightly earlier than they would otherwise end? Your final sentence is absolutely risible; it's some kind of amalgam of Godwin's Law, Straw Manning and breaking that commandment about not bearing false witness.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You use "being killed", which, whilst not technically accurate, is an interesting choice of words. It's not for example the form of words that those seeking the services of Dignitas would be inclined to use. Why is that, do you think?
Why is it not technically accurate?
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
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Originally posted by seekingsister:
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Originally posted by Boogie:
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Originally posted by seekingsister:
The niece could have facilitated her aunt's death in the UK, and faced the appropriate consequences for it, or the woman could have done it herself as she is not even terminally ill or handicapped.
Not with the appropriate drugs she couldn't. They are not available.
So we're not just talking about the right to die, it's the right to die as comfortably as possible.
Well yes, dying in pain is such a great thing, isn't it?
But if I'm depressed, suicidal, and not ill or old, I don't get the cocktail of drugs available to the people at Dignitas, do I. Unless you think everyone wanting to commit suicide deserves to be able to do it as comfortably as possible regardless of the reason?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
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Originally posted by Tulfes:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You use "being killed", which, whilst not technically accurate, is an interesting choice of words. It's not for example the form of words that those seeking the services of Dignitas would be inclined to use. Why is that, do you think?
Why is it not technically accurate?
Remove the "not". Typo
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
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Originally posted by seekingsister:
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
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Originally posted by seekingsister:
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Originally posted by Boogie:
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Originally posted by seekingsister:
The niece could have facilitated her aunt's death in the UK, and faced the appropriate consequences for it, or the woman could have done it herself as she is not even terminally ill or handicapped.
Not with the appropriate drugs she couldn't. They are not available.
So we're not just talking about the right to die, it's the right to die as comfortably as possible.
Well yes, dying in pain is such a great thing, isn't it?
But if I'm depressed, suicidal, and not ill or old, I don't get the cocktail of drugs available to the people at Dignitas, do I. Unless you think everyone wanting to commit suicide deserves to be able to do it as comfortably as possible regardless of the reason?
I find the question about comfort rather strange. I don't think people committing suicide, outside of being in extreme pain with an incurable condition, should be doing so at all. I don't think comfort comes into it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
But if I'm depressed, suicidal, and not ill or old, I don't get the cocktail of drugs available to the people at Dignitas, do I. Unless you think everyone wanting to commit suicide deserves to be able to do it as comfortably as possible regardless of the reason?
Depression is not a terminal illness.
Deciding to die in peaceful circumstances when one is already terminally ill is not the same as depressive suicide, nothing like it.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Tulfes
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# 18000
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Posted
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Originally posted by Boogie:
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Originally posted by seekingsister:
But if I'm depressed, suicidal, and not ill or old, I don't get the cocktail of drugs available to the people at Dignitas, do I. Unless you think everyone wanting to commit suicide deserves to be able to do it as comfortably as possible regardless of the reason?
Depression is not a terminal illness.
Deciding to die in peaceful circumstances when one is already terminally ill is not the same as depressive suicide, nothing like it.
But Anne wasn't terminally ill She was in declining health and fearing a future in care or hospital. Also, she felt that she couldn't adapt to modern life. My opening post wasn't meant to discuss the terminally ill and the issue of assisted suicide in such cases. I happen to be of the view that good palliative care is the solution, not the deliberate ending of life.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
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Originally posted by Boogie:
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Originally posted by seekingsister:
But if I'm depressed, suicidal, and not ill or old, I don't get the cocktail of drugs available to the people at Dignitas, do I. Unless you think everyone wanting to commit suicide deserves to be able to do it as comfortably as possible regardless of the reason?
Depression is not a terminal illness.
Deciding to die in peaceful circumstances when one is already terminally ill is not the same as depressive suicide, nothing like it.
The woman described in the OP, did not have a terminal illness, nor was she physically infirm. Take a look at the link in my post. She was old and depressed.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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Posted
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Originally posted by Boogie:
Depression is not a terminal illness.
But it can be fatal. It also is a quality of life-limiting illness, unpredictable and only sometimes treatable by medical intervention.
Which is not an argument for Dignitas, but there's no reason to exclude depression from this discussion.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Tulfes
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# 18000
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Posted
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
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Originally posted by Tulfes:
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You use "being killed", which, whilst not technically accurate, is an interesting choice of words. It's not for example the form of words that those seeking the services of Dignitas would be inclined to use. Why is that, do you think?
Why is it not technically accurate?
Remove the "not". Typo
I'm calling it what it is. That's how the law, currently, in the UK would regard it.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
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Posted
Depression can be extreme mental pain, can create bodily pain (I have spasming muscles right now), and is not always curable. The best I can hope for with SSRIs etc. is a lightening of it, with occasional interludes of normality. This has been going on since age 3 and will most likely continue to life's end. If you believe that continuing physical pain is a good enough reason to end someone's life, it is only logical to extend that to someone suffering from severe and incurable depression.
Thus far the logic, if you accept those premises. I can't. I can't support suicide or euthanasia on theological grounds. But I'd be more than willing to medicate someone in such pain to the point where they had relief from it, even if that meant unconsciousness (provided they asked for that, mind).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I find the question about comfort rather strange. I don't think people committing suicide, outside of being in extreme pain with an incurable condition, should be doing so at all. I don't think comfort comes into it.
Alright - it's been established that Anne of this particular case was neither in extreme pain nor had an incurable condition. So either she herself, or her niece, could have ended her life. A pillow over the face or leaping off a building is much more horrific, but that is how most people who commit suicide do so. They don't get to roll into a doctor's office and get a few nice IV drips because they no longer wish to live. But apparently if you are depressed AND old, you can fly to Switzerland to commit suicide in a nice, safe, sanitized way. None of the messy, you know, death stuff.
Which tells me that Dignitas is no longer (if it ever was) catering specifically to those to frail or feeble to end their own lives, those in constant pain and suffering, etc. as advertised. It is becoming an at-will suicide service.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I find the question about comfort rather strange. I don't think people committing suicide, outside of being in extreme pain with an incurable condition, should be doing so at all. I don't think comfort comes into it.
Alright - it's been established that Anne of this particular case was neither in extreme pain nor had an incurable condition. So either she herself, or her niece, could have ended her life. A pillow over the face or leaping off a building is much more horrific, but that is how most people who commit suicide do so. They don't get to roll into a doctor's office and get a few nice IV drips because they no longer wish to live. But apparently if you are depressed AND old, you can fly to Switzerland to commit suicide in a nice, safe, sanitized way. None of the messy, you know, death stuff.
Which tells me that Dignitas is no longer (if it ever was) catering specifically to those to frail or feeble to end their own lives, those in constant pain and suffering, etc. as advertised. It is becoming an at-will suicide service.
But you seem to be suggesting that the pillow over the face would somehow outrage you less than the death at Dignitas - almost like you want to ensure that someone you don't approve of topping themselves doesn't have a pleasant time of it. That's what I don't understand.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
But Anne wasn't terminally ill She was in declining health and fearing a future in care or hospital. Also, she felt that she couldn't adapt to modern life. My opening post wasn't meant to discuss the terminally ill and the issue of assisted suicide in such cases. I happen to be of the view that good palliative care is the solution, not the deliberate ending of life.
Fair point.
But it looks like she saw herself as coming to the end of her life. She was 89 and had already been in hospital. She hated it. She wanted to be sure to die peacefully without a slow, painful and lonely decline. I agree with her.
Too many hospitals try to make death as slow as possible. I understand this. Their purpose is to heal. But once life is over to all intents and purposes, then we need a Dignitas here, now.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
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Originally posted by Anglican't:
I'm a little suspicious of the emphasis in this story. The Daily Mail reports:
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As she grew older, her health became increasingly poor and she suffered from heart and lung disease.
She described a recent 11-day stint in hospital as ‘unadulterated hell’ and lived in fear of ending up in a nursing home.
I suspect that this weighed more heavily on her mind as she contemplated suicide than her failure to grasp the internet. Lots of people in this country manage to live without computer wizardry.
Not often I agree with Anglican't but I think he's on the money here. I don't think this story is really "woman kills herself because she couldn't copy with retirement of Windows XP"
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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