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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Excessive zeal in matters of religion
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
Excessive zeal in matters of religion is a sign of spiritual deficiency and of a lack of faith in God.
Discuss
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a theological scrapbook
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
No. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Seriously, what is meant by excessive zeal, and how do we tell whether it is present in a particular case? Are we talking about stuff like voluntary crucifixion (in the Philippines), or just "you spend way too much time at church, darling"?
As for spiritual deficiency, don't we all have that?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
I found this quote which made me nod my head towards the OP.
quote:
A Hassidic Rabbi (Michael) taught, “When the Evil Urge tries to tempt people to sin, it tempts them to become super righteous.”
I suspect that excessive zeal is often accompanied by a lack of humility. There are a number of sayings in the book of Proverbs which address this issue; this one is striking
quote:
Before a downfall the heart is haughty, but humility comes before honor. (Prov 18:12
BTW, an apparent excess of humility seems to me to be just another kind of pride; pride in being humble!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Discuss
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
No.
The smell of mutiny ? Always feels I've been wound back to the confines of a school classroom when I see OPs headed like that.
H'mmm religous zeal . Some might say religion without zeal is like sex without passion. Others would say at best it's embarrassing, or at worst it's dangerous .
Excessive anything is inclined to be problematic , unless you're training to excel at sport or something like that.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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StevHep
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# 17198
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Posted
In some reflections for Palm Sunday St Josemaria Escrive, founder of Opus Dei, said this-
quote:
...there is no peace in many hearts which vainly strive to make up for their intranquility of soul by continuous activity, by seeking a thin satisfaction in things which do not fill them but only leave a bitter aftertaste of sorrow..
....There is another hypocritical enemy of our sanctification: the idea that this interior struggle has to be against extraordinary obstacles, against fire-belching dragons. This is another sign of pride. We are ready to fight, but we want to do it noisily, with the clamour of trumpets and the waving of standards. We must convince ourselves that the worst enemy of a rock is not a pickaxe or any other such implement, no matter how sharp it is. No, its worst enemy is the constant flow of water which drop by drop enters the crevices until it ruins the rock's structure. The greatest danger for a Christian is to underestimate the importance of fighting skirmishes. The refusal to fight the little battles can, little by little, leave him soft, weak and indifferent, insensitive to the accents of God's voice.
Interior Struggle
ISTM that excessive zeal is based on a self image that casts ourselves in the role of heroes. The idea of heroism that sees great men and women doing great deeds overlooks the fact that in most cases victory belongs not to those who can inflict the most but to those who can endure the most. The good zeal is that which springs from a just estimation of our weaknesses and our inadequacies as a channel of God's grace. An excessive zeal rightly recognises the power of God but wildly overestimates the ability of the zealot to adequately respond to it.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
ISTM that 'excessive' zeal may not see people cast themselves as heroes but also as victims?
But what is 'excessive': to someone from a non-church and non-belief background going to church weekly is excessive, but most regular worshippers would regard it as the norm.
So are all weekly worshippers 'excessive'?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
ISTM that 'excessive' zeal may not see people cast themselves as heroes but also as victims?
But what is 'excessive': to someone from a non-church and non-belief background going to church weekly is excessive, but most regular worshippers would regard it as the norm.
So are all weekly worshippers 'excessive'?
We could play the everything is relative game to infinity and achieve nothing thereby. A question like this assumes a test along the lines off Given that person A believes certain things what would a reasonable observer consider to be a proportionate series of actions to follow from those beliefs?
Of course the test is to some extent subjective and the reasonable observer is an hypothetical construct but it is hard to see how any kind of discussion can take place around concepts like 'zeal' or 'excessive' without adopting this kind of approach.
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My Blog Catholic Scot
http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
@stevhep on Twitter
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
Here's what Paul reckons. If the aim of your "zeal" is to please Christ (rather than make yourself feel good, have a pop at someone else) that sounds like a sensible place to start.
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
Nah
Lukewarm and secular Christians just say that sort of thing to justify their lack of zeal.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
Woe to you, for you tithe mint and dill and cumin, but have neglected the weightier matters of the law: mercy and justice and faith.
It depends on whether you mean by matters of religion, tithing mint and dill and cumin and the equivalent, or whether you mean mercy and justice and faith. It is certainly possible to get very zealous about the trappings of religion.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
or whether you mean mercy and justice and faith. It is certainly possible to get very zealous about the trappings of religion.
This would seem to apply to a zealous approach to putting up stone monuments displaying the Decalogue, while going out of one's way to judge "sinners" (who just happen to commit "sins" that you are not tempted by), and totally ignoring the Two Great Commandments because they somehow do not apply.
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It's Not That Simple
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Or making one's faith all about self-righteous rants against the actions of one faction of a political party in a nation one doesn't even live
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
"Those who know don't have the words to tell
And the ones with the words don't know too well" -Bruce Cockburn.
Zeal is too often about the needs of the zealous.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Zeal is too often about the needs of the zealous.
I imagine that a large part of all religion is about what it does psychologically for believers themselves - especially in modern, individualistic cultures like ours. Indeed, it's practically bad manners to carry on as if our personal spirituality should be of any importance to anyone else.
As others have said, it's difficult to say what counts as 'zeal' without further explanation. in some circles, any sign of religious belief or practice is viewed as odd. I suppose it's normally a reference to obsessive or rigid 'strictness' in terms of doctrine or practice; or a desperation to evangelise in ways that lack any tact or understanding; or an inclination to fill all of one's available time and effort on churchgoing and church affairs.
Rather like madness, though, 'excessive zeal' seems to be a matter of context.
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
I would ponder what ones zeal is about . Does it draw attention to God/Christ or does it draw attention to you . If the latter then the zeal is misplaced . Zeal should always point toward God/Christ . Otherwise everything else is in vain.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Excessive zeal in matters of religion is a sign of spiritual deficiency and of a lack of faith in God.
For some, perhaps. Squiggle Andrew comes to mind. For months (years?) he was the most Orthodox of Orthodox- at least to his own thinking. Then he reads one book. Bam! He's an atheist. What a conversion!
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Excessive zeal in matters of religion is a sign of spiritual deficiency and of a lack of faith in God.
Discuss
If so - is a total lack of zeal in matters of religion a sign of spiritual completeness? And why should it be a given that spiritual deficiency is allied to a lack of faith in God? Depends what you mean by spirituality? - Discuss?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Worth pointing out that extreme religiosity (particularly when a very sudden change in behaviour but also more minor changes) can often be a symptom of mental illness. It is often also a means of control for people who feel helpless and out of control in other areas of their lives. I've seen it myself with people who (for example) switch to dresses and skirts for women only, viewing trousers on women to be cross-dressing in accordance with Leviticus, and also get very rigid about following Jewish tznius (modesty laws) which require collarbones, elbows and knees to be covered. The people in question had families, businesses, churches falling apart at the seams and getting obsessive about clothing from a religious POV was a way of getting back control over their lives. Very similar to how those suffering with eating disorders use food as control. In such cases, I hesitate to call it a lack of faith but rather a symptom of deep-seated emotional issues.
Not saying that hyper-religiosity is never caused by immature faith and lack of real spirituality, but I would be wary of accusing people who may be very ill or at least very troubled of lacking faith.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Worth pointing out that extreme religiosity (particularly when a very sudden change in behaviour but also more minor changes) can often be a symptom of mental illness.
As I understand it - epilepsy is the uncontrolled firing of neurons simultaneously within an area of the brain (rather than a sequential firing). When epilepsy affects the temporal lobe it can result in religious hallucinations
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Wots that movement in England that despaired at the rivalry of the church within England during the civil war and therefore cautioned zealosity?
[ 13. April 2014, 11:24: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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QJ
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# 14873
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Posted
too much misdirected zeal can get ears cut off. keep your sword at home.
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QJ
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