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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: NLP - Fact, fiction, or pseudo-religion
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
Ever heard of Neuro Linguistic Programming? Its supporters say its life changing. Its detractors say its a pseudo-religion based on shamanism, and has little empirical support through scientific study. Here's a recent article from The Indy which introduces you to its founder, Richard Bandler.
Is it helpful popularising of scientific theory, a distortion of outdated research, or an example of what some people might call a false religion promoted by a false prophet?
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think.
Was Paul (under the inspiration of God) the real inventor of NLP?
I know 'changing the way you think' is not how many Bible versions render Romans 12:2, but 'renewing of your mind' (as in the NKJV, NIV, NRSV and probably others) is saying pretty much the same thing, isn't it?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Ever heard of Neuro Linguistic Programming? Its supporters say its life changing. Its detractors say its a pseudo-religion based on shamanism, and has little empirical support through scientific study. Here's a recent article from The Indy which introduces you to its founder, Richard Bandler.
Is it helpful popularising of scientific theory, a distortion of outdated research, or an example of what some people might call a false religion promoted by a false prophet?
One part decent psychology, two parts cargo cult self improvement, three parts disappearing into its own worldview like a snake eating its tail, both deliberately (for more acclaim) and accidentally (the way anything based on positive thinking gets you to ignore counterexamples). If you go to one NLP session or read and weed one book on NLP it might well do you a lot of good. But the deeper you go the lower the signal:noise ratio.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Ever heard of Neuro Linguistic Programming? Its supporters say its life changing. Its detractors say its a pseudo-religion based on shamanism, and has little empirical support through scientific study. Here's a recent article from The Indy which introduces you to its founder, Richard Bandler.
Is it helpful popularising of scientific theory, a distortion of outdated research, or an example of what some people might call a false religion promoted by a false prophet?
One part decent psychology, two parts cargo cult self improvement, three parts disappearing into its own worldview like a snake eating its tail, both deliberately (for more acclaim) and accidentally (the way anything based on positive thinking gets you to ignore counterexamples). If you go to one NLP session or read and weed one book on NLP it might well do you a lot of good. But the deeper you go the lower the signal:noise ratio.
You got me interested Justininan - mind giving me an example of the "one part decent psychology" and one of the "cargo cult"? Like your point about positive thinking blinding you to counterexamples by the way….
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Neurolinguistic programming: a systematic review of the effects on health outcomes
They reviewed "MEDLINE®, PsycINFO, ASSIA, AMED, CINAHL®, Web of Knowledge, CENTRAL, NLP specialist databases, reference lists, review articles, and NLP professional associations, training providers, and research groups."
quote:
Conclusion There is little evidence that NLP interventions improve health-related outcomes. This conclusion reflects the limited quantity and quality of NLP research, rather than robust evidence of no effect. There is currently insufficient evidence to support the allocation of NHS resources to NLP activities outside of research purposes.
So the evidence would say it is not effective nor useful. I recall it from the early 1980s. That is long enough I think.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I think, like any other pseudopsychology, it is dangerous because it can prevent people getting help they genuinely need from people who can genuinely provide it.
And if you read anything about it, it is clearly unmitigated bollocks. But people in distress may not have the clarity to understand that.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Hokum enhanced with snake oil.
The mother of a former client was seduced into believing her son's autism could be "cured" through NLP (this was well over a decade ago).
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
I wouldn't want to dispute or cast doubt on any of the experiences folks have shared above, but surely there is something in NLP?
The article in Truman White's thread starter says this:
quote:
In crude terms, NLP explores the relationships between how we think (neuro), how we communicate (linguistic) and our patterns of behaviour and emotions (programmes). The idea is that, by studying these relationships, people can adopt more successful ways of thinking, communicating, feeling and behaving.
ISTM there are plenty of parallels between this and the idea of following various spiritual disciplines to bring about changes in how we think and how we react in life situations.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
There's quite a lot of hypnotism in NLP, and I think most people who have experienced it would agree that there is something powerful available through hypnotism. I have used one or two of the self-help techniques, and taken a short course in business uses. There's a lot of useful mental attitude stuff too, like possitive thinking and just getting on with stuff you thought you could never do. Some of it is basic personal interaction skills, like good listening. "Modelling" is also useful - which just means watching successful people to work out what it is they do to make them successful. Most people never bother to do that thinking.
The main danger I could see was the pyramid sales aspect, where you do the "master" course in order to change your life and make you capable of ... selling the "master" course yourself.
One of my experiences was overcoming my needle phobia in an ad-hoc lunch break demonstration, and going to the blood donor session that same evening, coming away having made my first donation in over 10 years. Small thing to do, but it does boost your confidence!
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
There is a lot of positive stuff in NLP. It is about engaging with the subconscious. That is helpful.
But it is not a way to cure everything, or anything. It is a way to adjust your thinking, and utilise your abilities.
Of course, some practitioners of it are snake-oil merchants. That does not make the underlying principles wrong.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
The article in Truman White's thread starter says this:
quote:
In crude terms, NLP explores the relationships between how we think (neuro), how we communicate (linguistic) and our patterns of behaviour and emotions (programmes). The idea is that, by studying these relationships, people can adopt more successful ways of thinking, communicating, feeling and behaving.
It doesn't explore those relationships. To do that you need to do experiments and statistics.
Also who says our patterns of behaviour or emotion are "programs"? Not in any other common use of that word they aren't. Not in any organism with much more cognitive ability than a flatworm.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
From the article:
quote:
Bandler himself still teaches NLP regularly, and claims to be able to "erase" traumatic memories, improve your relationships and even ' "cure" schizophrenia and paralysis (he taught himself to walk again using NLP after a stroke put him in a wheelchair).
Anyone who claims they can cure schizophrenia and paralysis using hypnosis and positive thinking techniques is deluding themselves as well as their patients. Such claims make me distrust that NLP would provide any long term solutions to less serious problems, either.
I don't think I would ever go under hypnosis because there have been cases of people ending up with false memories. Eg. of reincarnation or childhood sexual abuse. I don't know if NLP is connected with that sort of hypnosis though.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
I don't think I would ever go under hypnosis because there have been cases of people ending up with false memories. Eg. of reincarnation or childhood sexual abuse. I don't know if NLP is connected with that sort of hypnosis though.
It doesn't even need hypnosis to implant false memories - see here
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I think NLP can be very dangerous. I have personal experience of someone with very serious psychiatric problems being encouraged by a family member to 'do' NLP and the result is that an already deeply disturbed and manipulative person is now even more dangerous. The hospital which has been attempting to treat are at their wits end about it but it would seem the damage has been done.
What degree of danger? Well, a family member has had to have a linked to police station panic alarm fitted to their home ...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
Scary how easily the mind can be manipulated. Another reason I have never understood why people use torture or high pressure interrogations. Not only are they inhumane, but it's not a good way to find out the truth.
And having read a bit more about NPL on other websites to understand it better, it does seem to encourage manipulation in business, sales and even personal relationships. Apparently some authors/speakers eg. Ross Jeffries are even encouraging people to use NPL to seduce people they are attracted to.
[ 13. April 2014, 12:53: Message edited by: Mili ]
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
Scary how easily the mind can be manipulated. Another reason I have never understood why people use torture or high pressure interrogations. Not only are they inhumane, but it's not a good way to find out the truth.
I think people torture because they enjoy inflicting the suffering. It is fun.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
There is a lot of positive stuff in NLP. It is about engaging with the subconscious. That is helpful.
But it is not a way to cure everything, or anything. It is a way to adjust your thinking, and utilise your abilities.
Of course, some practitioners of it are snake-oil merchants. That does not make the underlying principles wrong.
South Coast Kevin points out that there's a number of different approaches to self help that engage with the subconscious etc. What is it about NLP that makes it different from other approaches?
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
There is a lot of positive stuff in NLP. It is about engaging with the subconscious. That is helpful.
But it is not a way to cure everything, or anything. It is a way to adjust your thinking, and utilise your abilities.
Of course, some practitioners of it are snake-oil merchants. That does not make the underlying principles wrong.
South Coast Kevin points out that there's a number of different approaches to self help that engage with the subconscious etc. What is it about NLP that makes it different from other approaches?
NLP is not a specific technique or approach. It is a collection of things that practitioners have
found useful. So if an approach from another field works, it is likely to be grafted into the canon of NLP at some time. It's a very broad church. A collection of stuff that people have found useful. They often say "the difference that makes a difference".
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
@ Hairy Biker. Point taken that NLP is eclectic, but I'm presuming there's something about the way these various techniques are brought together that gives it some kind of distinctiveness. Or there particular "techniques" that are normally associated with NLP?
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
NLP is not a specific technique or approach. It is a collection of things that practitioners have
found useful. So if an approach from another field works, it is likely to be grafted into the canon of NLP at some time. It's a very broad church. A collection of stuff that people have found useful. They often say "the difference that makes a difference".
Here's the thing, though: people are perfectly capable of being "healed" of various ills (at least briefly) by various means -- placebos in experimental medical trials, charlatan so-called "faith healers," praying &/or being prayed over, burying an apple with a nail in it during the dark of the moon, & so on.
Stumbling upon some apparently effective solution to some one individual's problem, though, while serendipitous, is not sound science. When you don't get consistent results, i.e., Method X alleviates Symptom Y in 75% of 10,000 Cases of Z -- you don't get a treatment method. You get an anomaly, or an accident, or a temporary apparent improvement, or you get no effect at all.
My former client was being "treated" with something called Facilitated Communication, which his mother seems to have got onto through some self-styled NLP practitioner. In theory, this was reputed to work as follows: a "facilitator" would place his/her hands over the patient's, which were in turn poised over a computer keyboard.
The facilitator was supposed to respond to any of the client's intention-gestures directed at the keyboard, by helping the client press the key the client was apparently indicating.
The output was alleged to be the typed-out thoughts from the client, offering a "window" into the (nonverbal) client's mind.
I don't need to add, do I, that the "messages" I saw/heard produced in this way (from a variety of clients "assisted" by a variety of staff) were remarkably and invariably consistent with the interests, concerns, and linguistic characteristics of the staff doing the assisting?
[code]
[ 13. April 2014, 20:31: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
I experienced NLP-techiniques through a previous job. Nothing to do with healing or well-being. It came across to me as a highly manipulative way of getting other people to do what you want them to - especially when trying to sell something.
Personally I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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