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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Disrespecting belief
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Originally posted by Raptor's Eye:
quote:
For too long, the polite 'don't mention religion or politics' rule has kept people silent. As a result, there is a great deal of ignorance about both and urban myths abound in Britain.
ISTM it is unfair to omit the ignorance of the believers themselves.
[ 20. April 2014, 15:26: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Raptor's Eye wrote:
quote:
For too long, the polite 'don't mention religion or politics' rule has kept people silent. As a result, there is a great deal of ignorance about both and urban myths abound in Britain.
Just an observation, but in my view, the taboo against discussing politics, whatever its stated rationale, has more to do with people finding it boring than with people finding it acrimonious.
I love talking politics, but unless I'm among fellow junkies, a political discussion will usually last about three minutes, tops, before eyes start to glaze over and someone says "Umm, can we talk about something else?"
And whenever I've asked people why they don't enjoy talking politics, the answer is rarely "Because it gets me into fistfights." More likely, some variation on "Ah, they're all crooks, so what's there to talk about", or something equally generic.
[ 20. April 2014, 15:57: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Well, I grew up in a culture where religion was just about the most boring thing you could talk about, except maybe Alma Cogan.
So I see some vigour and abrasion in discussion as a welcome sign - religion matters maybe.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
And whenever I've asked people why they don't enjoy talking politics, the answer is rarely "Because it gets me into fistfights." More likely, some variation on "Ah, they're all crooks, so what's there to talk about", or something equally generic.
Frequently similar for religion if you substitute "silly" for "crooks".
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, I grew up in a culture where religion was just about the most boring thing you could talk about, except maybe Alma Cogan.
So I see some vigour and abrasion in discussion as a welcome sign - religion matters maybe.
Hard to find a balance between Yawn. And "I'm Right! This is why I am Right! I hear what you are saying, but I'm Right! Why can't you understand that I'm Right? It is completely apparent that I'm Right! How can you question that I'm Right? You actually know that I'm Right! Why won't you admit that I'm Right?...."
The Ship is more rare a place than it should be.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
Being openly antagonistic to Christianity does seem to be a lot more acceptable than it used to be.
I think there's two things at work here.
One is a reaction against the privileged position that Christianity used to have in what are now post-Christian societies. Like schoolboys feeling brave and daring for slagging off the teachers, in that hour after school when they've just escaped the environment in which such talk would be punished.
One is a reaction to an enhanced awareness of fundamentalist Islam and the real evils that are committed in its name. Trying to oppose those evils in a non-partisan way, it's easy to conclude that there's something wrong with the very religion-ness of Christianity.
Or is it something else ?
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
I am sorry to say that some Christians make amazingly bad ambassadors as well. All it takes is one sermon denouncing (some minority here) to turn off masses of people for life. A work associate, just the other day, spoke of dropping Catholicism like a hot potato after hearing a homily about how gay people were damned.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Aye, when Christians are slagged off for being inclusive, kind, tolerant, merciful, generous, forgiving, blessing their, our enemies, THAT is disrespecting meaningful belief.
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Love wins
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I am sorry to say that some Christians make amazingly bad ambassadors as well. All it takes is one sermon denouncing (some minority here) to turn off masses of people for life. A work associate, just the other day, spoke of dropping Catholicism like a hot potato after hearing a homily about how gay people were damned.
If our attachment to Christianity is so provisional and fragile as to be broken as a result of one sermon, comment or media story, then we're already in a pretty secular context. Any religion would be on its way out by this point.
As for the complaints by Toujours Dan and others that the media and the public want stories about crazy or reactionary Christians rather than about Christians being kind, tolerant and helpful, I can understand the point being made. But again, it speaks of a society that's already so distant from Christianity as to be almost entirely ignorant of its variety and nuances.
Kind, caring, 'ordinary' Christianity isn't enough; maybe it's time for some hippy-type radical Christian communes, new liberationist orders of homeless mendicant holy men and women, and world-rejecting sects from the liberal end of the theological spectrum. Considering all the warnings of the potential collapse of the world's current financial system maybe all this wouldn't be so mad after all! But at present, most Western (and would-be Western) Christians, are still wedded to 'the system', regardless of their theology on paper.
[ 20. April 2014, 18:49: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
Russ wrote:
quote:
One is a reaction to an enhanced awareness of fundamentalist Islam and the real evils that are committed in its name. Trying to oppose those evils in a non-partisan way, it's easy to conclude that there's something wrong with the very religion-ness of Christianity.
Well, in fairness, if people are looking for examples of Christian evil to balance off the Muslim examples, it's not like they have to make stuff up.
[ 20. April 2014, 19:20: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Justinian
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# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I am sorry to say that some Christians make amazingly bad ambassadors as well. All it takes is one sermon denouncing (some minority here) to turn off masses of people for life. A work associate, just the other day, spoke of dropping Catholicism like a hot potato after hearing a homily about how gay people were damned.
If our attachment to Christianity is so provisional and fragile as to be broken as a result of one sermon, comment or media story, then we're already in a pretty secular context. Any religion would be on its way out by this point.
As for the complaints by Toujours Dan and others that the media and the public want stories about crazy or reactionary Christians rather than about Christians being kind, tolerant and helpful, I can understand the point being made. But again, it speaks of a society that's already so distant from Christianity as to be almost entirely ignorant of its variety and nuances.
Kind, caring, 'ordinary' Christianity isn't enough; maybe it's time for some hippy-type radical Christian communes, new liberationist orders of homeless mendicant holy men and women, and world-rejecting sects from the liberal end of the theological spectrum. Considering all the warnings of the potential collapse of the world's current financial system maybe all this wouldn't be so mad after all! But at present, most Western (and would-be Western) Christians, are still wedded to 'the system', regardless of their theology on paper.
The current situation the Church is in is that the Roman Catholic Church is known for a long term cover up of paedophilia. The Church of England is a little better off. It's "only" in the situation where it comes off second best in a moral argument with a payday loan company (Justin Welby's attempts to take on Wonga.com last year) and is known for speaking out in favour of homophobia and trying to keep the glass ceiling. And the evangelical churches are generally worse on homophobia.
So yes, ordinary Christianity isn't getting anywhere. When you're in a position where you are struggling to take the moral high ground against payday loans of course you aren't. When you're in a position where David Cameron can take the moral high ground against you then you aren't. And something radical from the liberal end of the spectrum is very, very necessary. If the Church doesn't have moral authority it has nothing. And right now it has all the moral authority of payday loan companies or politicians.
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jrw
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# 18045
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by jrw:
Perhaps Christians need to talk more about Jesus and less about Christianity (whatever that is).
Christianity is about Jesus.
You could have fooled me.
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jrw:
You could have fooled me.
Expand? The churches, the worship, the teaching, the actions toward welfare and justice, all point to Christ and reveal God.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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jrw
Shipmate
# 18045
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by jrw:
You could have fooled me.
Expand? The churches, the worship, the teaching, the actions toward welfare and justice, all point to Christ and reveal God.
Hmm. Perhaps I'm too negative.
Posts: 522 | Registered: Mar 2014
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Russ wrote:
quote:
One is a reaction to an enhanced awareness of fundamentalist Islam and the real evils that are committed in its name. Trying to oppose those evils in a non-partisan way, it's easy to conclude that there's something wrong with the very religion-ness of Christianity.
Well, in fairness, if people are looking for examples of Christian evil to balance off the Muslim examples, it's not like they have to make stuff up.
Yes, but is that something new, or has it been around for a long time, in a way that public disrespect of religion in general hasn't ?
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Um, fairly easily.
I understand you believe this, I do not.
Simple and plain, but not at all derisive.
Do you find this disrespectful?
I find painting all those who do not believe as you do a bit disrespectful.
You have not met many of the Bill Mahers of this world . It goes way beyond just that these people "don't believe as we do"
My comments were directed at to OP in an attempt to encourage him to not let himself be troubled.
I appreciate the Mahers of the world more than I do those who won't lay their cards on the table in an attempt to come off as polite.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jrw:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by jrw:
Perhaps Christians need to talk more about Jesus and less about Christianity (whatever that is).
Christianity is about Jesus.
You could have fooled me.
If you listen to the shrieks of some bits of Christianity in this country, you'd think the sole purpose of Christianity was to prevent gays from getting married. Christ? Barely gets a nod.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If you listen to the shrieks of some bits of Christianity in this country, you'd think the sole purpose of Christianity was to prevent gays from getting married.
Please. Prevent gays from getting married and abolish Obamacare. Has somebody been picking and choosing in your Bible?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Or, another example (alas, you can easily find one a day):
link
Egregious public ignorance is nearly as repellent as outright hatemongering.
[mended broken scroll lock]
[ 22. April 2014, 04:57: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If you listen to the shrieks of some bits of Christianity in this country, you'd think the sole purpose of Christianity was to prevent gays from getting married.
Please. Prevent gays from getting married and abolish Obamacare. Has somebody been picking and choosing in your Bible?
Sorry, you're right. I was sleep deprived from Pascha.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jrw:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by jrw:
You could have fooled me.
Expand? The churches, the worship, the teaching, the actions toward welfare and justice, all point to Christ and reveal God.
Hmm. Perhaps I'm too negative.
Maybe not. Our church put on the Miracle Maker film for the kids on Friday. I really, really struggled to relate the teaching and ministry of Jesus portrayed there (and it's straight out of the gospels) with the sin, condemnation, turn or burn theology of the Church.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
ISTM that negativity is so rife, what with media sensationalist distortion, the anti-Christian lobby, the readiness Christians have to look for our own failings, and some of the anachronistic theological angles that we've clung onto, along with the 'don't talk religion' message, that some might believe that Christianity is a negative religion rather than one of the good news of Christ.
It's up to us to change that rather than to add to the negativity by complaining about it.
Everything the Christian Church does and is focusses on Christ, Christians are going out of their way every day to serve God through Christ, Christian love is being spread in communities throughout the world, good things are being said and done in Christ's name.
Let the odd stupid remark be seen for what it is, let us engage with the theology so that we try to understand and overcome the negative distortions with the power of God's truth, let us learn to show how much we love God and love others as ourselves while using the right words that help people to associate our love with God.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
Given the topic of this thread, this article might be interesting to some folks.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Given the topic of this thread, this article might be interesting to some folks.
Holy Shit! If true, that raises my opinion of both of them.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Yeah, I remember reading that after Falwell died. Apparently, they went around to college campuses and debated morality.
That seems to be a thing in American popular culture(possibly other places as well), Christians and infidels arguing on the rubber-chicken circuit. I think Clarence Darrow(who defended Scopes) did the same thing back in 1930s.
And, today, Ron Jeremy tours with the pastor of XXX Church, an evangelical outreach to the p0rn industry. I don't think he and the pastor have come to total agreement on their issues, but they apparently get along famously.
[ 22. April 2014, 19:48: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The touring thing does not surprise me. As Flynt states in the article, he initially went for the self-promotion. And the self-promotion could sustain the whole thing. But if they truly became friends, this changes the light in which I see both. Yes, I am fully aware people can be nuanced. Might say more about me that these two surprised me than it does about them.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
What, or who, exactly, is the anti-Christian lobby? What's the anti-Christian equivalent of the NRA or the Sierra Club?
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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