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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
We can all quote from Scripture, "it is also true that God "desires all men to be saved" (1 Tim 2:4), and that for Him "all things are possible" (Mt 19:26), an aswer he gave to the question "who then can be saved? This is why I don't buy the free will arguement. If all things are possible to a God who desires the salvation of all, the matter is settled!
I don't agree that that settles the matter. Note that Jesus' answer was not to the question "who will be saved?" but to "who can be saved?" Taken literally, his answer means that there are no people for whom it is true that it is impossible for God to save them. I can see how you could legitimately interpret this to mean that all will [eventually] be saved, but it seems to me to leave plenty of room for the alternative that there will be some people who choose not to be saved. I.e. God desires that all be saved, but he also desires that everyone makes a free choice about it.
However, I fully agree that none of Scripture contradicts the idea that a God of love doesn't torture anyone (for any duration).
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
I don't agree that that settles the matter. Note that Jesus' answer was not to the question "who will be saved?" but to "who can be saved?" Taken literally, his answer means that there are no people for whom it is true that it is impossible for God to save them. I can see how you could legitimately interpret this to mean that all will [eventually] be saved, but it seems to me to leave plenty of room for the alternative that there will be some people who choose not to be saved. I.e. God desires that all be saved, but he also desires that everyone makes a free choice about it.
Although I stick to my view that I don't accept eternal, conscious torment, my main point here is that anyone can creatively make their own arguement by quoting Scripture. So the point that eternal damnation appears in Scripture doesn't make it right, because it can be interpreted in other ways. Relying on Scripture to prove preconceived ideas is fraught with difficulties for all of us.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
What anger? None is mentioned in the story
The curses in Genesis chapter 3?
And as I said in the rest of that post, the "curses" may have been more descriptive than wrathful.
What do you mean?
I don't see how gaining knowledge of good and evil should automatically make childbirth difficult and work a complete pain in the ass? How do the two follow unless it is God's action?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
a) The experimental evidence available to us very strongly suggests that we do not have what I suspect you mean by "free will" and
?
You don't believe human beings have free will? Or are you reducing the argument to a materialist viewpoint?
I don't believe that human beings have free will (in the sense that we make decisions by consciously weighing evidence etc.)
Isn't that supposed to be the whole premise of science? Weighing evidence?
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
I'd like to think we (I) do but there seems to be an overwhelming weight of experimental evidence (quantified results including fMRI data not abstract philosophy) which says that we make decisions in our unconscious, based on our genetic inheritance and our experience. Does, when I think about it, make sense of my own determination that many problems are best resolved by sleeping on them.
So no, regretfully, I don't so believe - it would, after all, be perverse of me to believe something which is contrary to evidence wouldn't it?
Well no. But that entirely depends on what kind of evidence and what your presumptions about that evidence are now doesn't it?
If you do not believe we have conscious choice then I assume you believe we are some sort of per-programmed robot. But I think we've been through this before and you are essentially a materialist.
Personally I find that philosophical viewpoint too small and deeply flawed.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
God's yearning is bigger than ours.
Of course there's no free will: We ALL want to be happy. And if there were, free will, it would be a lesser, human thing. It's meaningless in God.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
And as I said in the rest of that post, the "curses" may have been more descriptive than wrathful.
What do you mean?
I don't see how gaining knowledge of good and evil should automatically make childbirth difficult and work a complete pain in the ass? How do the two follow unless it is God's action?
"Adam knew Eve." That kind of knowledge - experiential, not abstract intellectual.
Kids think it's fun to play cops and robbers, their parents might convey the intellectual information it's not a fun situation but the kids are happy in their play. If they are ever close to a real cops & robbers battle, they'll experience that it's not fun, it's scary.
God experiences good and evil - think of the pain of our rejecting him. The tree's fruit "opened their eyes" to the broader reality.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That makes me think that moral awareness goes with existential awareness and in that our carnal limitations are a pain to our barely transcendent perspective: animals don't experience angst in breeding, predating. We ARE spirits in a material world. Which is why we swear, as Clive Staples explained.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong
Yet eternal punishment is not justice, its just overblown vengeance because there is no redemption. It is God's nature that all her children be called to life.
ISTM that there is a formula in the Bible, which rules out the idea that God has given up on the damned:
1. God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4).
2. God / Christ does not change (Hebrews 13:8).
3. God loves His enemies (implied in Matthew 5:48).
Therefore, ISTM, it is illogical for God to give up on anyone, no matter how hostile that person is to the ways of God. This implies that hell can never be permanent from the point of view of God's volition, although, of course, it is logically possible (though barely conceivable) that a person may choose to rebel forever.
Because of this, I have a strong suspicion that what the Bible calls 'hell' is really a kind of purgatory, although there is no guarantee that every last person will ultimately escape this fate, because some may be eternally unrepentant.
quote:
Annihilation would be more in keeping with God's justice than eternal punishment/torture IMO.
The problem with annihilation is that it undermines the above redemptive purpose.
Certainly if hell is final in terms of divine decree, then annihilation seems the more morally justifiable position.
I take the view that God is hell, based on Hebrews 12:29. I have no problem with the idea that the God of everlasting love is 'hell' for those who are unrepentantly arrogant and evil. But God desires the ultimate salvation of these people, so how can He just annihilate them?
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee
a) The experimental evidence available to us very strongly suggests that we do not have what I suspect you mean by "free will" and
If this is the case, then there is no such thing as 'free thinking', and no hope of persuading people to change their minds based on an appeal to reason. Yet we know that many people do change their position. In fact, in your post you imply this very thing...
quote:
Don't think about it too much - it's one of the several routes to atheism which are embedded in Christianity.
Why do you think some Christians become atheists, and others do not? Or why some atheists become Christians? Is it simply genetic or environmental? If that is the case, then atheism has no more claim to truth than any other position.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong
Yet eternal punishment is not justice, its just overblown vengeance because there is no redemption. It is God's nature that all her children be called to life.
ISTM that there is a formula in the Bible, which rules out the idea that God has given up on the damned:
1. God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4).
2. God / Christ does not change (Hebrews 13:8).
3. God loves His enemies (implied in Matthew 5:48).
Therefore, ISTM, it is illogical for God to give up on anyone, no matter how hostile that person is to the ways of God.
Flame is a symbol of the Holy Spirit - Moses at the bush, tongues of flame at Pentecost. Why isn't "flames of hell eternal" an image of the holy spirit's presence at work - never giving up?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl Kroenen
Apprentice
# 16822
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Posted
Hell is a real place. The Russians drilled into it in the last days of the Soviet Union.
Russian 'Hell Well'
Seems plausible to me. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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God loves you so much that He created Hell, just in case you don't love Him back.
Posts: 34 | From: Bristol | Registered: Dec 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
EtymologicalEvangelical I think we're on a similar wavelength.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Flame is a symbol of the Holy Spirit - Moses at the bush, tongues of flame at Pentecost. Why isn't "flames of hell eternal" an image of the holy spirit's presence at work - never giving up?
Because eternal punishment/torment is not redemptive and sanctifying. It is not restorative justice. Therefore not a mark of the Holy Spirit.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
EtymologicalEvangelical I think we're on a similar wavelength.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Flame is a symbol of the Holy Spirit - Moses at the bush, tongues of flame at Pentecost. Why isn't "flames of hell eternal" an image of the holy spirit's presence at work - never giving up?
Because eternal punishment/torment is not redemptive and sanctifying. It is not restorative justice. Therefore not a mark of the Holy Spirit.
That's how I see it as well.
Biblical symbols usually have opposite meanings. So "fire" has both a good and a bad sense - being the warmth of God's love, or the tormenting fire of hell.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
It is usually apposite, but perhaps more so on this thread.
From the Catechetical Sermon of Our Father Among the Saints, St. John Chrysostom on the Great and Holy Day of Pascha: quote:
Let no one fear death, for the Savior's death has set us free.
He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it.
By descending into Hell, He made hell captive.
He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh.
And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry;
Hell, he said, was embittered,
when it encountered You in the lower regions.
It was embittered, for it was abolished.
It was embittered, for it was mocked.
It was embittered, for it was slain.
It was embittered, for it was overthrown.
It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains.
It took a body, and met God face to face.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.
O Death, where is your sting?
O Hell, where is your victory?
Christ is risen! And you are over thrown.
Christ is risen! And demons are fallen.
Christ is risen! And the angels rejoice.
Christ is risen! And life reigns.
Christ is risen! And not one dead remains in the grave.
For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first-fruits of those
who have fallen asleep.
To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages.
Amen.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee
a) The experimental evidence available to us very strongly suggests that we do not have what I suspect you mean by "free will" and
If this is the case, then there is no such thing as 'free thinking', and no hope of persuading people to change their minds based on an appeal to reason. Yet we know that many people do change their position. In fact, in your post you imply this very thing...
quote:
Don't think about it too much - it's one of the several routes to atheism which are embedded in Christianity.
Why do you think some Christians become atheists, and others do not? Or why some atheists become Christians? Is it simply genetic or environmental? If that is the case, then atheism has no more claim to truth than any other position.
Perhaps I haven't made my understanding clear. That which we are born with is (pretty much) immutable - our experiences are on-going. Envisage a set of balances - there may be inherited factors in both pans, with one or the other the heavier. Experience may build up in the opposing pan and therefore opinions can change - this is recognised (overtly or implicitly) by all who want to control the experience of others, particularly in childhood education?
quote:
Evensong - Isn't that supposed to be the whole premise of science? Weighing evidence? It's part of the process - Yes - but science relies upon a way of gaining that evidence and testing its conclusions (the scientific method) that makes it difficult to accept as evidence that which is really wishful thinking.
If you do not believe we have conscious choice then I assume you believe we are some sort of per-programmed robot. But I think we've been through this before and you are essentially a materialist. Your assumption is wrong - see above
Personally I find that philosophical viewpoint too small and deeply flawed. Quelle surprise - Mind you, when I was twelve I would have agreed with you; I couldn't have given a rational argument to back it up but I'd have known how right I was.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
EtymologicalEvangelical I think we're on a similar wavelength.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Flame is a symbol of the Holy Spirit - Moses at the bush, tongues of flame at Pentecost. Why isn't "flames of hell eternal" an image of the holy spirit's presence at work - never giving up?
Because eternal punishment/torment is not redemptive and sanctifying. It is not restorative justice. Therefore not a mark of the Holy Spirit.
I don't see never ceasing to love, never ceasing to hope for a child to come home, as punishment!
I suppose the child who has turned his back on his loving parents could see it that way. "Leave me alone!" Should the rejected parent slam the door, change the locks, "I've run out of patience, my kid is not welcome anymore?"
It's one of those "anything God does is wrong" situations. Give up - heartless, rejecting. Never give up - heartless, disrespectful. Destroy the kid - heartless, vengeful. What's a God to do?
My actual image of "the afterlife" is one "destination" that feels like paradise to those who share God's life-giving values and lonely not-fun to those who don't. The issue is not "will you go to heaven" but "are you developing the values to thrive happily there?"
I suppose God could invent an alternative "place" where those who need to dominate are paired with those who need to feel like victims?
I have trouble imagining any parent cheerfully offing their kids. And what do you tell the sibs? "Your best friend didn't want to come here so I destroyed him." That doesn't solve the problem of "how do you fully enjoy heaven when some people you dearly love aren't there?"
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
This is academic for me because as an atheist I don't believe an afterlife. Were the option available, I'm not sure which is better, eternal damnation or annihilation. I'd be curious how others feel about that choice. I can see arguments for choosing either.
I've heard "free will" used as an explanation of why hell exists. You get the privilege of choosing heaven or hell. It's not clear to me if what the "all will be saved" proponents are saying is that free will continues after death, when you are in hell. Does free will exist after death? Does it for those in heaven as well?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Palimpsest. As a creedal, therefore orthodox Christian, I'm not bothered about the afterlife and anybody else's projected nastiness narrative of it either.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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