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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: In Praise of IngoB!
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
But really, he does not deserve this round in hell. Admit it, he's got entertainment value. Without types like him, The Ship would be a lot more bland and boring.
Were you here when Gordon Cheng was here? Just curious.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
No. Who's he? And what did I miss???
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Gordon Cheng was very entertaining. A post about Gordo at the top of the page? He would love that.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
yes, I've googled him in the meantime. Yummie! What a nice addition to our onboard entertainment!!!
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Rather than just leave, they pretend the RCC was once something it never was and got hijacked by traditionalists like IngoB.
Actually the opposite is true. The Church used to be like IngoB sees it. Hence the need for ultra traditionalists like the SSPX to form their own jurisdictions. I was going to write go into schism, but that's a bit complex where the SSPX is concerned. Or the even more extreme Sedevacantists. It was liberals and modernisers who hijacked it, starting at Vatican II. I couldn't have joined before then.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Rather than just leave, they pretend the RCC was once something it never was and got hijacked by traditionalists like IngoB.
Actually the opposite is true. The Church used to be like IngoB sees it. Hence the need for ultra traditionalists like the SSPX to form their own jurisdictions. I was going to write go into schism, but that's a bit complex where the SSPX is concerned. Or the even more extreme Sedevacantists. It was liberals and modernisers who hijacked it, starting at Vatican II. I couldn't have joined before then.
So IngoB is wrong? The RCC no longer believes the stuff he thinks it does? Point him to the official teaching of the RCC that contradicts his opinion and I'm sure he will reconsider his opinion. Do you mean liberals and modernized acting in the spirit of Vatican 2 pretending Vatican 2 did what it didn't do?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Gee D: quote:
Litotes is a standard word of English grammar and requires no translation.
I had to look it up. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
I agree with Desert Daughter that IngoB is a unique presence on the Ship and I'd miss him if he left. He's an odd duck and more power to him. But I also agree with orfeo that the OP was brilliant. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
I had vowed to myself (thankfully, not to God, since I'm "crap" at keeping vows!) that my only contribution to this thread would be the OP. And, I'm supposed to be on a self-imposed two-week "re-lurk"! But....
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
But I also agree with orfeo that the OP was brilliant.
Lyda*Rose, you and Orfeo clearly have terrible judgment about what counts as "brilliant"! The OP is one of the most idiotic things I've ever wasted time composing! ... I'm "crap" at feigned modesty, too! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Okay -- back to lurking....
Your Dubious and Used-Up Old Slut, Thomas.
P.S., I, too, miss Gordo!
[ 12. April 2014, 23:17: Message edited by: Dubious Thomas ]
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Never insult your audience's taste, dearie.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
yes, I've googled him in the meantime. Yummie! What a nice addition to our onboard entertainment!!!
An especial favorite was his annual "Lent is stupid and evil and non-Biblical and wrong-headed and anybody who observes it is an un-Christian heretical three-headed Peruvian chipmunk" thread. (I'm paraphrasing.) A bit of trolling -- erm, wind-up merchandising -- as regular as clockwork. And of course people who actually like observing Lent, or find it of spiritual benefit even if they don't actually "like" it, responded gratifyingly, so he kept his little hard-on for 40 days (at least).
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No, God is small, cruel and mean. IngoB understands this and is spreading the message like a good evangelical.
I'm on SoF to discuss, not spread, the faith. And if the assembled Marcionite church judges my God to be small, cruel and mean, why should I care?
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And in return all we get is literal quoting and calling your opponent a slut. Ingo, I'm disappointed.
You are wrong about the quotation. It is interesting and fitting in more than one way. And I don't care how many people read it - I always aim to please myself in writing, not the crowd. But the "slut" bit indeed tried too much: riffing on the accusation of machismo, pointing out that Dubious T is actually a nasty piece of work, and being insulting - all at the same time. Also, I shouldn't use such language, it's not me.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
IngoB preaches a stern, loveless God, ready to fry the majority of humanity, to whom the rules of the Church are of paramount importance, and who would be willing to write us of for eternity when we fail to keep those rules. ... I see IngoB's Catholicism as pharasaical rigid adherance to the dead letter of the law, and completely devoid of the love God requires of us.
Well, it's a caricature, but it will do. Can you really not see what love requires me to do if I believe something about God like you claim that I do? Can you really not see what your universalist preaching would look like from this perspective? If you actually believed in heaven and hell, mortal sin, all that stuff, what would you have to do if you wanted to be your brother's keeper?
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh please. The Summa is a bit much for anybody's attention span.
As a straight read through, perhaps, as a compendium to be consulted on a case by case basis it is great.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Frequently, there is a need among such people to reassure themselves constantly about the sense which the step they took makes. For IngoB, this reassurance is sought in endless, painstakingly perfected postings on The Ship. I don't think he wants to proselytise. He probably just does it for reassurance.
Not exactly. It's more that I employ my love of coming out on top intellectually to push myself to learn the faith via all those endless apologetic engagements.
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
I'm sure Ingo would be thoroughly dismissive of such sentimentality on my part, though. And that's the thing - he can be so sneering and dismissive of those who disagree. I paint a mental lip curl on the avatar so often when I read what he writes.
I have no problems with sentimentality. Really, I do not. I have problems with people imposing their sentimentality on the truth. And I tend to become sneering and dismissive in discussions when I get frustrated or do not feel respected. I guess that happens a lot...
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
[Oh, and the dead horse thing. Maximise your chances of salvation through Catholicism > A Catholic understanding of marriage is primarily for child-bearing > maximise my chances of salvation through almost continuous child-rearing with all the attendant consequences. No thanks.]
"With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time." - Humanae Vitae
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
A real shame he disembarked.
Yeah. Let's just say that that is what happened.
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
I had vowed to myself (thankfully, not to God, since I'm "crap" at keeping vows!) that my only contribution to this thread would be the OP.
Figures.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh please. The Summa is a bit much for anybody's attention span.
As a straight read through, perhaps, as a compendium to be consulted on a case by case basis it is great.
I know you think so. Has it occurred to you that you might be a bit ... unusual in that department, and that not everybody can be as good at slogging through Aquinas as you are? And thus to deride somebody for not doing well what you can do well is a little on the unfair side, and a lot on the stupid side?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
I can't believe I'm saying this (everyone I went to grad school is feeling a disturbance in The Force right now), but, in Tom's defense, there is a certain Baroque musical beauty to the ST, as there is to the disputed questions (e.g., De potentia, De veritate), with the objections rising from the level of spurious and predictible to the serious, the credible, and, in the case of the disputed questions, some that are just plain weird; to the sed contra arguments; to Thomas's reply; and then to the replies to both the objections and the arguments in support of the position. It may be something that you only get to hear after reading article upon article, 14 objections building their force only to find resolution after an artificially prolonged suspension, but there is a beauty to Aquinas, one that sustained me through the many (often awful) years I spent studying him. And once you see it, once you hear it, it's very, very hard to give it up, or see why other people think he's dry and tiresome.
Okay, it may also be because I'm a bit jaded and bitter after slogging through the Aristotelian commentaries, a forced march through the untranslated Sentences commentary, and Duns Scotus (whom I also quite like, if for different reasons). But seriously, you're blaming Ingo for liking someone who is quite likable?
As a side note regarding Aquinas and the whole "straw" incident: according to James Weisheipl, OP, while there may have been a mystical or spiritual dimension to it, there was almost certainly a physical one—a nervous breakdown or stroke, probably exacerbated by his insane work ethic. Admittedly, there are more recent biographies of the man and his work—most notably that of Pasquale Porro—but I'm pretty sure nobody here wants to see me butcher Italian.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
But seriously, you're blaming Ingo for liking someone who is quite likable?
No, for fuck's sake, look at what I wrote. I acknowledge that Ingo finds Aquinas "great," and say nothing bad about him on that score. Nothing. Go look. Seriously, go back and read it. Here, for crying out loud, I'll give you a fucking LINK, since you missed it the first time.
I'm blaming Ingo for sniping at others who don't find Aquinas easygoing. For posting a big chunk of Aquinas and then sneering at Dubious Thomas for not being able to read it due to his short attention span. I said Aquinas is heavy going for anybody, and IngoB countered that he's "great," standing ("doubling down" as the kids say) on his insult that if you can't get through a chunk of Aquinas, it's because you have an inferior attention span.
In short, he appears to think that anybody who doesn't find Aquinas "great" is intellectually inferior to himself.
You could have saved me this trouble if you had just read the thread yourself. Can I enjoin you to do that next time before you shoot off your mouth? Ta.
TL;DR version: If you have read so much Aquinas that he comes easy and you find him wonderful, that's super. If you have read so much Aquinas that someone for whom he doesn't come easy, or who doesn't find him wonderful, seems sneer-worthy to you, then your problem isn't understanding Aquinas. It's being an asshole.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I speak only for myself, but when I hear somebody has read the entire goddamn Summa Theologica I kind of give them a pass on a certain amount of intellectual bravado. It's kind of like resigning yourself to the idea that someone with a 14 inch cock is going to mention zipper chafe once in a while.
I dunno, MT, the rest of Bingo's post was... Bingoesque, but that little line about the greatness of Aquinas seemed cutely enthusiastic to me.
[ 13. April 2014, 04:27: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Help! Help! I'm being dogpiled! See the violence inherent in the system!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
1. So you're the only/primary person I was talking to, MT? Interesting. I didn't know that, but okay, thanks for enlightening me. I'll keep that in mind.
2. Didn't know I hadn't read things for comprehension, bad links, etc, a few times today. False memories are a bitch.
3. Yes, I'll grant you a good, old-fashioned face palm when I read Ingo's posts. Ditto most everyone else's. I think I read this thread, like most others, through my fingers (best to keep the face in the palm) while muttering obscenities. The dog was nonplussed. He's gotten used to it.
4. Okay, fine. I will say that if you hang around a bunch of Thomists, if everybody you know finds Thomas easy, if you've gotten used to him, it may be that you expect Thomas is easy—after all, nobody you know finds him hard! I suspect it's the same for skydivers. Or potters. Or cyclists. Or one-handed catfish noodlers. It may also be that speaking fluent Thomist, having been (and still being) among people who consider Thomas easy, clear, and simple enough for everyone to understand gives me some undue sympathy for Ingo and Co., to the point where a Hellcall for him being…well, whatever we're saying he's being…elicits mostly just a groan and a few more muttered obscenities, not enough to even wake up the dog anymore. I imagine that if I spent all my free time reading Hegel, and talked to lots of Hegelians, I'd eventually find Hegel easy too, and be surprised when people didn't.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
... whatever we're saying he's being…
HIMSELF, for Chrissake.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Well, it's a caricature, but it will do. Can you really not see what love requires me to do if I believe something about God like you claim that I do? Can you really not see what your universalist preaching would look like from this perspective? If you actually believed in heaven and hell, mortal sin, all that stuff, what would you have to do if you wanted to be your brother's keeper?
Ok when you put it that way, perhaps I've been a bit unfair, and you are doing your best to save us from the fires of hell. This reminds me of Augustine's view that it's better to torture people into accepting Christ than to see them burn for eternity. Agape can work in strange ways. Having been brought close to a nervous breakdown at the age of 15 by being told I was going to hell by the Elders of an Evangelical Church, my visceral repulsion to such ideas is admittedly unblanaced, which has negatively coloured my lifelong relationship with Christianity. I apologise if I've been offensive to you.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
1. So you're the only/primary person I was talking to, MT? Interesting. I didn't know that, but okay, thanks for enlightening me. I'll keep that in mind.
Since I was the only one who was making a fuss about Aquinas, it seemed natural to me that your coming to Aquinas' defense had to do with me. And since I was the only one calling out IngoB regarding Aquinas, it seemed natural to me that your defending IngoB for liking Aquinas had to do with me.
quote:
Okay, fine. I will say that if you hang around a bunch of Thomists, if everybody you know finds Thomas easy, if you've gotten used to him, it may be that you expect Thomas is easy—after all, nobody you know finds him hard!
Okay, fine. Although IngoB has been here long enough to know that a lot of people here aren't like him in a lot of different ways.
quote:
Or one-handed catfish noodlers.
Are there youtube videos of this? Are they work-safe?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
[So IngoB is wrong? The RCC no longer believes the stuff he thinks it does? Point him to the official teaching of the RCC that contradicts his opinion and I'm sure he will reconsider his opinion. Do you mean liberals and modernized acting in the spirit of Vatican 2 pretending Vatican 2 did what it didn't do?
Well, it is not that straightforward. The RCC is much less monolithic in what it "believes" than that. Believe it or not, there is ongoing debate. IngoB's approach to RC theology is what is called "Neoscholasticism" (hence his penchant for Aquinas). That in itself is a broad field, but it was the dominant way of "doing" theology from the mid 1800's on to the 1960's (roughly speaking). It has left its mark on "mainstream" theology. Vatican II and the (dreadfully slow and sluggish) dialogue with the Eastern Churches -among other things- are slowly offering grounds for alternative approaches.
It appeals greatly to the "western" mind and it constructs a very logical and coherent, might I say rational, theology.
But there are indeed other approaches. I personally find neoscholasticism depressing, it is a sort of intellectual and spiritual straightjacket, at one point it almost made me run away and turn to the Orthodox church, but, well, to each his own. I also suppose I've spent too much time in India and sitting on top of monastery roofs in Ladakh staring at the Himalayas to be considered a "real" RC by the likes of IngoB (he hinted at that at some point). Oh well (*shrugs*)
Now it seems that IngoB likes to be admired for his (supposed or real) intellectual superiority, and from time to time he cannot help sneering at other shipmates' (supposed or real) lack of brains. Whether he should be forgiven for this or not is up to whoever chooses to engage with him in "debate": he (or she) will eventually find him-or herself being talked down to.
That's part of the package, apparently.
As to Aquinas? Hey, saying that you've read the Summa from cover to cover carries a bragging factor of 10 out of 10. Which was, I suppose, the purpose of it having been mentioned.
But as I said before, he's really no more of a crackpot than some others on The Ship.
[ 13. April 2014, 04:59: Message edited by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Help! Help! I'm being dogpiled! See the violence inherent in the system!
Keep it up and you'll have Evensong defending you.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Help! Help! I'm being dogpiled! See the violence inherent in the system!
Keep it up and you'll have Evensong defending you.
Everybody now take a sip of the beverage of your choice.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Help! Help! I'm being dogpiled! See the violence inherent in the system!
Keep it up and you'll have Evensong defending you.
Everybody now take a sip of the beverage of your choice.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
One more square and I've got BINGO.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No, God is small, cruel and mean.
You think so?
It were a joke.
This is actually what I think of IngoB
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Ingo B translates as a convert who has learnt the letter of his new faith, but not the substance of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It's kind of like resigning yourself to the idea that someone with a 14 inch cock is going to mention zipper chafe once in a while.
I have been privileged to know some amazing people who managed to never do such.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
But I suppose Hell brings out the very worst in anyone... or is it just as with alcohol: it is under "the influence" that people show their true colours?
Being drunk, on alcohol or anger, lowers the inhibitions, it does not bring about any forced honesty.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I'm on SoF to discuss, not spread, the faith. And if the assembled Marcionite church judges my God to be small, cruel and mean, why should I care?
That you ask why you should care, indicates your missing the point of much of Jesus' teaching.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
I also suppose I've spent too much time in India and sitting on top of monastery roofs in Ladakh staring at the Himalayas to be considered a "real" RC by the likes of IngoB (he hinted at that at some point). Oh well (*shrugs*)
Well you're in great company with some of my favourite Catholic writers such as Thomas Merton, Carlo Carretto and David Steindl-Rast. It should be obvious to anyone that I'm much more into the mysticism of these people than to the Scholasticism of Aquinas. I don't make any claim of mystical experience myself, except a lifelong sense of God's presence, but mone is a religion of the heart much more than the head. IngoB's approach isn't the only valid form of Catholicism.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
St. Paul would probably have a hard time convincing Bingo he is a "real" Catholic.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
St. Paul would probably have a hard time convincing Bingo he is a "real" Catholic.
Catholicism didn't exist in St.Paul's time. There was only JC and his teachings. Not quite the same thing, I suspect.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
There's a reason why Latin died.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
It should be obvious to anyone that I'm much more into the mysticism of these people than to the Scholasticism of Aquinas. I don't make any claim of mystical experience myself, except a lifelong sense of God's presence, but mone is a religion of the heart much more than the head. IngoB's approach isn't the only valid form of Catholicism. [/QUOTE]
yes, I'm on that side of things, too.
the only "problem" is that types like us don't produce very provocative posts...
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Help! Help! I'm being dogpiled! See the violence inherent in the system!
Keep it up and you'll have Evensong defending you.
Everybody now take a sip of the beverage of your choice.
One more square and I've got BINGO.
Much innuendo. Very lost. So Doge.
[ 13. April 2014, 11:17: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Has it occurred to you that you might be a bit ... unusual in that department, and that not everybody can be as good at slogging through Aquinas as you are? And thus to deride somebody for not doing well what you can do well is a little on the unfair side, and a lot on the stupid side?
If I actually expected people to be as good (*) at slogging through Aquinas as I am, I would not be posting carefully selected and trimmed quotes. I would simply give a reference, or just say "check the ST on that."
(*) Good in a one-eyed among the blind way.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm blaming Ingo for sniping at others who don't find Aquinas easygoing. For posting a big chunk of Aquinas and then sneering at Dubious Thomas for not being able to read it due to his short attention span. I said Aquinas is heavy going for anybody, and IngoB countered that he's "great," standing ("doubling down" as the kids say) on his insult that if you can't get through a chunk of Aquinas, it's because you have an inferior attention span.
I respond in Hell to the OP calling me to Hell. And because I diss my detractor there by saying that he has too short an attention span to understand the quotation, this reveals my general opinion about people reading Aquinas?
Now, for the record, if an educated adult with a good grasp of English really cannot handle the quotation from Aquinas that I gave, then I do think that they have a problem with their attention span. But while this may be the case for you, I don't think that this is your main cognitive problem. Rather, it doesn't take much to get you riled up, but when you are you leave your wits behind.
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
I will say that if you hang around a bunch of Thomists, if everybody you know finds Thomas easy, if you've gotten used to him, it may be that you expect Thomas is easy—after all, nobody you know finds him hard!
Yeah. But this is not heaven, and I'm aware of that.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
This reminds me of Augustine's view that it's better to torture people into accepting Christ than to see them burn for eternity.
Reference, or he did not say that.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I apologise if I've been offensive to you.
Thanks, but that's not necessary. Just keep the second-guessing of motivations a little kinder. As much as I think universalists are a serious danger to people's salvation, I think they are typically misguided by good intentions.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This is actually what I think of IngoB
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Ingo B translates as a convert who has learnt the letter of his new faith, but not the substance of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It's kind of like resigning yourself to the idea that someone with a 14 inch cock is going to mention zipper chafe once in a while.
I have been privileged to know some amazing people who managed to never do such.
I wonder how many years I have to be RC before people manage to believe that I'm actually like that, rather than just going through a phase? And I always find amazing the confidence with which people extract the true substance of the faith from underneath so much distracting doctrine and scripture. I also actually rarely sing my own praises, at least not concerning religion. Like here, who was actually talking as if was some kind of serious Thomist theologian, who hangs daily with his philosopher homies in the ivory tower? Me? Certainly not. Ariston seemed to suggest that, who knows why...
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
That you ask why you should care, indicates your missing the point of much of Jesus' teaching.
WWJD? Presumably one should deal with other Christians strongly convinced of their false understanding of the Christian faith as Jesus dealt with Jews strongly convinced of their false understanding of the Jewish faith. And we all know how Jesus dealt with the Pharisees, Sadduccees, etc. Discuss with them, sure, curse them too, but mostly focus on other people who actually listen...
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I don't make any claim of mystical experience myself, except a lifelong sense of God's presence, but mone is a religion of the heart much more than the head.
I find these claims of spiritual sophistication by proxy strange. Also, I find that people who are supposedly heart-dominated tend to have lots and lots to say on matters of the head. Amazing, that.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
St. Paul would probably have a hard time convincing Bingo he is a "real" Catholic.
One of the pleasures of being an adult convert is that you get to pick your baptismal name yourself, and can use it to signify something about your faith. The baptismal name I chose is "Paul", as in the former Saul of Tarsus...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
WWJD? Presumably one should deal with other Christians strongly convinced of their false understanding of the Christian faith as Jesus dealt with Jews strongly convinced of their false understanding of the Jewish faith.
If one is as sure as Jesus was that one is right. But he was God, and none of us have that kind of surety. Ergo a dash of humility, a bit of "but I could be wrong," is called for.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
St. Paul would probably have a hard time convincing Bingo he is a "real" Catholic.
Catholicism didn't exist in St.Paul's time. There was only JC and his teachings. Not quite the same thing, I suspect.
See how many layers my wisecrack had? And I didn't even know Bingo's baptismal name! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by IngoB:
or he did not say that.
Here you can read some of Augustines letters. He eventually came to approve of the torture of heretics, which he hadn't earlier, reasoning that saving their souls justified such "extreme" measures.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
See how many layers my wisecrack had?
Sigh. If only my crack were as wise as yours. Or had as many layers.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
but mostly focus on other people who actually listen...
Preach to the converted?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Here you can read some of Augustines letters. He eventually came to approve of the torture of heretics, which he hadn't earlier, reasoning that saving their souls justified such "extreme" measures.
Thanks for that. Interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Preach to the converted?
To the convertibles. (No, not cars.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Here you can read some of Augustines letters. He eventually came to approve of the torture of heretics, which he hadn't earlier, reasoning that saving their souls justified such "extreme" measures.
Thanks for that. Interesting.
Not sure if it makes any difference or not—the post leaves out the context for the development of Augustine's anti-Donatist thought—but it wasn't merely/simply torture Augustine was advocating, but the use of state power in general against heretical sects. Now, I'd have to go back and reread the letters to see if he meant it in general, or only against the Donatists/Circumcelians in particular, but the Donatists were not your average "difference of opinion, agree to disagree" sort of heretics. Thanks to a set of sociopolitical and historical circumstances stemming back to the Diocletion persecution, they were a uniquely anti-Roman Punic sect that believed that the One True Church was a part of the church in Roman Africa (usually the Punic-speaking part), and, especially for members of the Circumcelian sect, had no issues killing and raiding Catholics, even after an Imperial proclamation condemning them. So I'm not sure if Augustine's development here should be read simply as "you can torture heretics" so much as "if the secular and spiritual power are allied, and there's a sect causing trouble, violence, and unrest for both the secular and sacred powers, then you can use the state power to put down heretical sects that disturb the peace."
Of course, this raises all sorts of questions about the relationship between church and state, which I find interesting that blog post didn't mention (seeing as that's the part I'd find really cool). That's another can of worms entirely.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Preach to the converted?
To the convertibles. (No, not cars.)
Or for Buddhist ears: pouring tea.
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
So I'm not sure if Augustine's development here should be read simply as "you can torture heretics" so much as "if the secular and spiritual power are allied, and there's a sect causing trouble, violence, and unrest for both the secular and sacred powers, then you can use the state power to put down heretical sects that disturb the peace."
Once more: Interesting. Thanks.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I find that people who are supposedly heart-dominated tend to have lots and lots to say on matters of the head. Amazing, that.
A bit of balance on your part would be nice.
If you couldn't care less what we think or feel about all this, why do you bother telling us your opinions? (at great length?). I think, like someone else said, that you are trying to convince yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Preach to the converted?
To the convertibles. (No, not cars.)
Or for Buddhist ears: pouring tea.
That's a good analogy for the way you (don't) listen IngoB.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
A bit of balance on your part would be nice.
Tell you what, if I am ever interested in your opinion about my personal life of faith, I will send you a PM. Deal?
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If you couldn't care less what we think or feel about all this, why do you bother telling us your opinions? (at great length?). I think, like someone else said, that you are trying to convince yourself.
Not exactly. Rather, people here generate this endless stream of apparent problems for the faith, and I like solving my way through them. Of course in doing so I on one hand learn a lot of new stuff about the faith (problem solving just is the best way of learning IMHO) and on the other hand every time I manage to solve yet another problem (to my satisfaction) it boost my confidence in the faith. So in that specific sense I am indeed convincing myself. But it is not really a quest for the affirmation of a weak faith. I consider SoF to be basically faith-destroying, an acid bath of negativity, sentimentality, unreason, worldliness and doubt. It's a good place to be if you want to battle-test a strong faith. It's also a good place for killing weak faith. To somewhat correct this bleak picture: SoF is much better than say typical atheist forums, in that there is quite a bit of fairness and patience to be had here, and actual interaction occurs quite frequently. You can battle-test your faith elsewhere, but it usually boils down to a pure shouting match with a chorus of people who do not engage with you at all anymore once triggered into action. Not so here. People rarely convince each other of anything, but they do talk, they do put in some effort.
Why would anyone want to play along with me then? I have no idea. You tell me what's in it for you... All I can say is that I enjoy this, that I try hard to stick to the rules, and that I put considerable effort into my contributions here. So I don't think that I am abusing SoF, but I sure am using it for my purposes. Everybody else is welcome to do the same for whatever their purposes are, as far as I am concerned.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
That's a good analogy for the way you (don't) listen IngoB.
I'm not here to have my tea cup filled. I'm here to keep my full tea cup from spilling or spoiling as all sorts of people try to tip it over, shake the table on which it is standing, try to pour other liquid into it, try to spit in it, etc.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If you couldn't care less what we think or feel about all this, why do you bother telling us your opinions? (at great length?). I think, like someone else said, that you are trying to convince yourself.
Not exactly. Rather, people here generate this endless stream of apparent problems for the faith, and I like solving my way through them. Of course in doing so I on one hand learn a lot of new stuff about the faith (problem solving just is the best way of learning IMHO) and on the other hand every time I manage to solve yet another problem (to my satisfaction) it boost my confidence in the faith. So in that specific sense I am indeed convincing myself. But it is not really a quest for the affirmation of a weak faith. I consider SoF to be basically faith-destroying, an acid bath of negativity, sentimentality, unreason, worldliness and doubt. It's a good place to be if you want to battle-test a strong faith. It's also a good place for killing weak faith. To somewhat correct this bleak picture: SoF is much better than say typical atheist forums, in that there is quite a bit of fairness and patience to be had here, and actual interaction occurs quite frequently.
Fair enough.
I love problem solving in another sphere (dog training!) and discuss such stuff endlessly on another forum.
But I would say that faith doesn't need to be strong to be good.
(Mustard seeds etc)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
St. Paul would probably have a hard time convincing Bingo he is a "real" Catholic.
Catholicism didn't exist in St.Paul's time. There was only JC and his teachings. Not quite the same thing, I suspect.
See how many layers my wisecrack had? And I didn't even know Bingo's baptismal name!
Indeed. And as we all know Saint Paul, institutionally and religiously was THE original Protest-ant!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I'm very grateful indeed for your contributions to the SoF, IngoB, even when you intercourse me up the bottom with your superior argument.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
IngoB: quote:
I consider SoF to be basically faith-destroying, an acid bath of negativity, sentimentality, unreason, worldliness and doubt.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Wow. If that bore any resemblance to how I saw the Ship I would have left it a long time ago - maybe never joined in the first place. If we can differ so much over something that is immediate and accessible, IB, maybe I shouldn't be surprised when we come to such different conclusions over matters of faith.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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