Source: (consider it)
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Thread: In Praise of IngoB!
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Robert Armin: IngoB: quote: I consider SoF to be basically faith-destroying, an acid bath of negativity, sentimentality, unreason, worldliness and doubt.
Wow. If that bore any resemblance to how I saw the Ship I would have left it a long time ago - maybe never joined in the first place. If we can differ so much over something that is immediate and accessible, IB, maybe I shouldn't be surprised when we come to such different conclusions over matters of faith.
That's a bit unfair to pick one sentence from a lengthy paragraph: IngoB admits that this paints a grim picture but does go on to say what the Ship provides. FWIW I agree with him to a great extent and while he may be damning with faint praise, I wouldn't expect a whole lot more.
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
 Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The other side of that comment Robert, is that people don't come to the Ship unless they are questioning their local church, if not their faith, and want to question further.
I'm not sure that the Ship is that much of an acid bath. But I read years ago, people often end up atheist or part of the Orthodox Church if they join the Ship, which is more or less what IngoB is saying. Except he didn't give credit to the Ship for recruiting for The Plot™.
IngoB has totally convinced me that I don't want to convert to Roman Catholicism, which isn't a bad thing.
I've found IngoB is worth arguing with when I wanted to challenge him on something. It helped me clarify my ideas. It takes some work and research, but I certainly knew what I believed when I finished. Sadly it's time consuming and I don't always have the time.
-------------------- Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Isn't it odd how the same experience can be perceived by different people?
I came to the Ship after disengaging from a lot of stuff but still seeking to deepen my faith.My first year here on the Ship has made me think long and hard about a lot of things.I have less answers than ever and have find myself reeling from following some of the discussions but I feel I've been held by my daily spiritual practices and my faith is alive and well.
As for IngoB....I don't think I've recently encountered anyone who debates so well and you have certainly made me think. But I do have a question/ observation! The Pope and the RC Church are committed to the ongoing task of "evanglisation" which I assume you subscribe to as well? If yes, do you not see any place for a little more kindness to accompany your debating style? You know the whole "If I....but have not love" thing!You never know it might even bear some significant fruit....
-------------------- "It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Boogie
 Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Your sig says it all MrsBeaky.
"It is better to be kind than right."
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: quote: Originally posted by IngoB: quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: Preach to the converted?
To the convertibles. (No, not cars.)
Or for Buddhist ears: pouring tea.
Using Buddhist example, I see your cup as full of Sīla pāramī and Adhiṭṭhāna pāramī , leaving no room for Mettā pāramī or Dāna pāramī. In other words; incompleteness.
As far as those willing to listen, I would observe your presentation has the potential to inhibit the potentially receptive.
More simply put, it is not just what you say, but how you say it.
Translations. Adhiṭṭhāna (adhitthana) pāramī : determination, resolution Sīla pāramī : virtue, morality, proper conduct Mettā pāramī : loving-kindness Dāna pāramī : generosity, giving of oneself
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: Not exactly. Rather, people here generate this endless stream of apparent problems for the faith, and I like solving my way through them. Of course in doing so I on one hand learn a lot of new stuff about the faith (problem solving just is the best way of learning IMHO) and on the other hand every time I manage to solve yet another problem (to my satisfaction) it boost my confidence in the faith. So in that specific sense I am indeed convincing myself.
Same goes for me. My CPE supervisor despaired of me. She noted I learnt best through argument.
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: But it is not really a quest for the affirmation of a weak faith. I consider SoF to be basically faith-destroying, an acid bath of negativity, sentimentality, unreason, worldliness and doubt.
Only if you fear questioning and doubt. Which I suppose a weak faith does.
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: To somewhat correct this bleak picture: SoF is much better than say typical atheist forums, in that there is quite a bit of fairness and patience to be had here, and actual interaction occurs quite frequently. You can battle-test your faith elsewhere, but it usually boils down to a pure shouting match with a chorus of people who do not engage with you at all anymore once triggered into action. Not so here. People rarely convince each other of anything, but they do talk, they do put in some effort.
And herein you explain the strength of Anglicanism. (Thanks be to God, and Simon)
quote: Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...: I'm not sure that the Ship is that much of an acid bath. But I read years ago, people often end up atheist or part of the Orthodox Church if they join the Ship, which is more or less what IngoB is saying
Atheism or Orthodox? PAH!
I've been strengthened in my Anglicanism. I couldn't be prouder.
-------------------- a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Wesley J
 Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by MrsBeaky: [...] I have less answers than ever [...]
You'll find it is fewer answers, not 'less'. This is due to 'answers' being a countable noun.
You're hellcome.
-------------------- Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Robert Armin: Wow. If that bore any resemblance to how I saw the Ship I would have left it a long time ago - maybe never joined in the first place.
Well, you can kind of see his point: he posts well reasoned thoughts and people (I still always wonder just how many) routinely accuse him of hate.
Plus as you know it's difficult to abandon this forum.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
 Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by moron: quote: Originally posted by Robert Armin: Wow. If that bore any resemblance to how I saw the Ship I would have left it a long time ago - maybe never joined in the first place.
Well, you can kind of see his point: he posts well reasoned thoughts and people (I still always wonder just how many) routinely accuse him of hate.
Who has accused him of hate?
He's been (fairly imo) accused of lacking kindness/feelings/empathy/sympathy here. But not hate.
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by moron: Well, you can kind of see his point: he posts well reasoned thoughts and people (I still always wonder just how many) routinely accuse him of hate.
You're showing your modern colors there moron. Reason can be of the devil.
quote: An evil person can do ten thousand times more harm than a beast, because we can use our reason to devise many diverse evils - Thomas Aquinas
-------------------- a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I thought we Anglicans rejected fundamentalism because we didn't want to leave our brains at the door? A traditionalist Catholic engages your brain with reason and you call him mean. Sounds like what we want to do is be left alone to make it up as we go. Fair enough. Let's just drop all the pretense of wanting a rational faith.
-------------------- Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible. -Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Rational faith sounds like an oxymoron.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Wesley J:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky: [...] I have less answers than ever [...] You'll find it is fewer answers, not 'less'. This is due to 'answers' being a countable noun.
You're hellcome.
You see, this is why I hardly ever venture into Hell, if you don't have your wits about you, you run the risk of apprehension by the grammar police let alone the many other perils....and oh the shame as I have taught countable/ uncountable nouns on so many occasions. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
-------------------- "It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Curiosity killed ...
 Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Boogie: Your sig says it all MrsBeaky.
"It is better to be kind than right."
Yeah - so it's really better to be kind and give the addict money so they can feed the addiction?
It's really better to be kind to your children and give in to them rather than enforce boundaries?
It's so much better to be kind to a child and tell them they are wonderful, rather than correct them and help them move forward?
I'm not saying that people should be unkind but Siegfried Sassoon was pretty damning about kindness in Does it matter?
-------------------- Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Perhaps but we have no shortage of people claiming to be in search of one. They'll condemn fundamentalists for being ignorant and then condemn intellectuals like IngoB for lacking a heart. You can't have it both ways. Might as well just admit to believing in that which makes us the most comfortable. Problem is that would mean giving up all that afflicting the comfortable stuff.
-------------------- Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible. -Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Just for the record:
My signature is taken from a story about a dispute in doctrine between two people of very different churchmanship. It has been one of my aspirations to make it a way of life
When I talk of kindness, I mean the how not the what of what is being done or said. Of course there is a need for boundaries, debate and thought-through action!
-------------------- "It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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Autenrieth Road
 Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
What if the fundamental core of a religion, or even its less-than-fundamental superstructure, isn't about having a single watertight explanation of everything? What if it's part of the nature of true religion to be fuzzy? What if the kind of intellectualism that IngoB engages in is like taking an Impressionist painting and drawing outlines around everything in it?
-------------------- Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Beeswax Altar: I thought we Anglicans rejected fundamentalism because we didn't want to leave our brains at the door? A traditionalist Catholic engages your brain with reason and you call him mean.
Mua? I was merely pointing out to moron reason is not the end all and be all of truth.
Or perhaps in a more Protestant tense: the devil can quote scripture too.
quote: Originally posted by Beeswax Altar: Perhaps but we have no shortage of people claiming to be in search of one. They'll condemn fundamentalists for being ignorant and then condemn intellectuals like IngoB for lacking a heart. You can't have it both ways.
Sure you can. It is very possible to be both clever and kind.
But Bingo isn't interested in being kind. He's interested in ideas. [ 14. April 2014, 14:19: Message edited by: Evensong ]
-------------------- a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Curiosity killed ...
 Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
MrsBeaky - I did wonder about editing that quote down to remove you out of that discussion, because I don't disagree that kindness in in our manner of dealing with people, particularly, is important.
But kindness, as depicted by Sassoon, can be patronising, dismissive, an easy response and not meeting people's needs at all. And the examples I gave were all kindness that is in the long term unkindness. So challenging the flip answer.
Some of what is being said here is being discussed on the social gospel thread in Purgatory too.
-------------------- Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Curiosity killed: But kindness, as depicted by Sassoon, can be patronising, dismissive, an easy response and not meeting people's needs at all. And the examples I gave were all kindness that is in the long term unkindness. So challenging the flip answer.
I completely agree!
-------------------- "It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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IngoB
 Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by MrsBeaky: But I do have a question/ observation! The Pope and the RC Church are committed to the ongoing task of "evanglisation" which I assume you subscribe to as well? If yes, do you not see any place for a little more kindness to accompany your debating style? You know the whole "If I....but have not love" thing!You never know it might even bear some significant fruit....
For sure, my approach here has diddley-squat to do with "evangelisation", at least with the sort of "evangelisation" that looks a lot like a recruitment drive supported by an advertisement campaign. I could make some noises about how it is a kind of evangelisation to clarify the faith to others, even if they are more driven away than attracted by that. However, mostly I think of this place as a bit of "guilty pleasure" or "me time" or what have you. I think the spiritual damage I do to others here is fairly limited, given that this is pretty much a place of spiritual mayhem anyhow and people jump into it with gusto and without being pushed.
Basically, this to me is the spiritual equivalent of playing paintball with a bunch of other adults. It is morally rather fishy, and childish, and when all is said and done probably can't be defended as something a sensible adult should be seen as doing. But it's a lot of fun, keeps you fit, and if we all let our hair down together then perhaps nobody will recommend a hair cut...
I don't deal with others in other circumstances as I do here. Obviously, I'm not an entirely different person elsewhere. However, I have then different goals and so I am being me with other outcomes. FWIW, I have in fact contributed significantly to the evangelisation efforts, practically and personally, in a previous parish. And no, it was not through some kind of heresy fighting crusade...
quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: More simply put, it is not just what you say, but how you say it.
And if I was here to win hearts and minds, I probably would worry about that a lot.
quote: Originally posted by Evensong: I've been strengthened in my Anglicanism. I couldn't be prouder.
For Anglicans, pride comes after the fall.
quote: Originally posted by Caissa: Rational faith sounds like an oxymoron.
Desperta Ferres! Desperta!
quote: Originally posted by Evensong: But Bingo isn't interested in being kind. He's interested in ideas.
True enough. Here. I would note though that I try to keep some reasonable balance between what I dish out and what I take. And on the occasions where I have apologised (aside from "breaking the 10Cs") this has been in an effort to restore that balance. Given that I do not apologise very often, you can take a guess how I see the general level of kindness around here...
-------------------- They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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orfeo
 Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: Why would anyone want to play along with me then? I have no idea. You tell me what's in it for you...
I don't know if you noticed, but I for one decided a while ago there was very rarely anything in it for me at all.
The Ship provides you with a steady supply of new people who have to learn that lesson for themselves, though.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Firenze
 Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: I consider SoF to be basically faith-destroying, an acid bath of negativity, sentimentality, unreason, worldliness and doubt.
I knew there was a reason I like it. [ 14. April 2014, 15:48: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB I don't deal with others in other circumstances as I do here. Obviously, I'm not an entirely different person elsewhere. However, I have then different goals and so I am being me with other outcomes. FWIW, I have in fact contributed significantly to the evangelisation efforts, practically and personally, in a previous parish. And no, it was not through some kind of heresy fighting crusade...
Thanks for the clarification. It makes me sad though as I have to conclude that for you there would no possibility of mutual fellowship with someone like me. That said I have a couple of really close RC friends with I do have that mutuality so I won't give up hope yet!
-------------------- "It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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IngoB
 Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: I don't know if you noticed, but I for one decided a while ago there was very rarely anything in it for me at all.
I hadn't noticed. And now that you mention it... well, uhh... thanks for sharing, I guess.
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: The Ship provides you with a steady supply of new people who have to learn that lesson for themselves, though.
Sort of. Problem is that even I get bored with my repetitions eventually. So the questions is whether there's enough novelty in the long term. Time will tell.
-------------------- They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote: I wonder how many years I have to be RC before people manage to believe that I'm actually like that, rather than just going through a phase?
When it comes easily and naturally and when it's just part of the air you breathe. When you stop spouting doctrinal rebuttals with chapter and verse and start living Catholicism. You don't have to figure out what the doctrinal position is and then ensure you react appropriately. Just live your faith, if you screw up, so be it, we all screw up - it's part of being human.
quote: Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...: IngoB has totally convinced me that I don't want to convert to Roman Catholicism, which isn't a bad thing.
That's exactly the problem. Ingo is, frankly, an embarrassment. I actually agree with him on a number of points but the way he presents the arguments is a great way to actually lose his hearers' sympathy. Reading his posts can feel like being trodden on by a Cyberman, marching relentlessly up and down without any compassion or care about how the other person is feeling, no interest in even trying to see their point of view, it's just opposition that must be quashed and an argument that must be rebutted. Pope Francis holds fairly orthodox Catholic views on most things but the difference in the way he and Ingo express themselves is a world apart.
Faith is a living thing, Catholicism can be a beautiful, enriching love affair with life and with God. None of that has ever come through in any of Ingo's posts that I've seen. A little more humanity and a lot less legalism wouldn't come amiss.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
 Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: quote: Originally posted by orfeo: I don't know if you noticed, but I for one decided a while ago there was very rarely anything in it for me at all.
I hadn't noticed. And now that you mention it... well, uhh... thanks for sharing, I guess.
That's what message boards are generally considered to be for. Sharing.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
IngoB is doing Roman Catholic evangelism the way it has to be done. Pope Francis, bless his heart, is sadly mistaken if he believes converts can be won simply by being nice about what Roman Catholics believe. Many in the West despise Roman Catholic teachings on human sexuality. Francis may get kudos for sugar coating it but will only win converts by either changing the teachings of the RCC or by convincing people to accept Roman Catholic teaching
-------------------- Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible. -Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ariel: Reading his posts can feel like being trodden on by a Cyberman, marching relentlessly up and down without any compassion or care about how the other person is feeling, no interest in even trying to see their point of view, it's just opposition that must be quashed and an argument that must be rebutted.
Yes. But IngoB sems to admit that he’s in the game for “battle-hardening” his theology. He does not want to “share” or be your friend, so get over it. The problem is that he wants a fight/an argument, but nobody else on the Ship seems to express an interest in taking him on. Why that is so, apart from a possible dislike of being sneered at, I do not know. The Ship would benefit from more theological argument. I know I personally don’t get engaged enough, mainly because I dip in and out of the board between other things to do/procrastinating because I really should start grading exams/ other rather unglorious reasons, and seldom have the time/the interest to craft a lengthy, carefully elaborated argument, and partially because my “approach” (I don’t really want to call it “theology”) is not something that is based on thomist ratio. But there is surely someone on the Ship who would enjoy a joust? I for one would love to read an equally “testosterone-laden” response from an Orthodox shipmate.
quote: Originally posted by Beeswax Altar: Pope Francis, bless his heart, is sadly mistaken if he believes converts can be won simply by being nice about what Roman Catholics believe.
Indeed. But I don’t think he believes that. Don’t be fooled by appearances, he is a lot more solid than most people believe. Francis is not what the masses construct him to be. And I fear that wil come to haunt him soon. I think the fluffy image is dangerous, for many RCs go for fluffiness, too. It is religious populism. (as an aside, JPII attracted the masses because of that, too). This is not a big love-in he’s about. He is about a very radical message about the Gospel: Francis is the true fundamentalist. Read his views on the Social Gospel. Read what he said in Lampedusa. But let’s leave this here, this is not the place to discuss Pope Francis.
quote: Originally posted by Beeswax Altar: Many in the West despise Roman Catholic teachings on human sexuality.
All right, let’s take that one to make another point. Because part of the problem is related to the crew. I think that Shipmates are too homogeneous /monocultural, and they react with spite and hell-calls once someone posts outside those unwritten rules/ the institutionalised discourse. I know, I had my brush with the plank .
So if I say (and I mean it!) that I actually think that the RC view on sexuality is very healthy, I will incur the wrath of shipmates, not on theological grounds but because I said something outside what is currently mainstream discourse.
As to IngoB, and apart from the fact that I too do not like the sneering tone of many of his posts, all he (mostly) does is post views that don’t go down well with the mainstream. Come on, this is the 21st Century, this is the internet, surely a man should not be made to walk the plank just because he says things that the majority don’t like to hear?
-------------------- "Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Beeswax Altar: IngoB is doing Roman Catholic evangelism the way it has to be done.
No, he most explicitly is not. He has stated multiple times that he is not here to win souls, only to beat people up logically. I take him at his word. You should, too.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
IngoB isn't trying to evangelize. However, I've noticed that many converts to Roman Catholicism because it is rational in a way. By showing how traditional Roman Catholicism is rational, IngoB appeals to that sort of person. He could be less condescending. On the other hand, a less condescending IngoB would be only slightly less vexing to his despisers than he currently is.
-------------------- Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible. -Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Beeswax Altar: By showing how traditional Roman Catholicism is rational, IngoB appeals to that sort of person.
The moment a faith starts to be perceived as "rational", it stops being the bridge between Man and God / the pathway to God within.
There is a big difference between being attracted to a faith because "it makes sense" and because "it is rational".
Parts of the RCC (for reasons of history of the way they like to do theology I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread) just love the "rational" bit. But it is what I call "Latin" rationality. It is still alive and well and goes like that: You take an assumption (any assumption, and anyone who is familiar with the way most political discourse is constructed in e.g. South America will know what I mean...) and on top of that assumption (in RC parlance, frequently disguused as "Natural Law", although I sometimes feel they are too liberal with that term), you build a carefully crafted, perfectly logical edifice of points and conclusions. Nice. Impressive. But resting on shaky foundations.
The big mistake of the RC magisterium is that they cannot simply shut up where silence is required.
-------------------- "Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Beeswax Altar: IngoB isn't trying to evangelize.
Ah, good, you have seen the light. Glory to Jesus!
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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RuthW
 liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: quote: Originally posted by Evensong: I've been strengthened in my Anglicanism. I couldn't be prouder.
For Anglicans, pride comes after the fall.
I'll be using that one - thanks!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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IngoB
 Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by MrsBeaky: It makes me sad though as I have to conclude that for you there would no possibility of mutual fellowship with someone like me.
I'm not sure what you mean by "mutual fellowship", but unless that means something like "unconditional acceptance of every aspect of my life" to you, then I don't really see how this would be impossible for me. My best friend while studying was a cultural Sufi turned sort of ... well, vague. Of the people I hang out with now, socially, only two are religious at all, as far as I know. And they are Protestant. The only person I've ever met whom I found religiously inspiring to the point of wanting to emulate them was a Zen Buddhist monk. It is true that I don't have any non-Catholic support group for my spiritual life. But then I don't have any Catholic support group either. In a strange sort of way, SoF is my support group, really. I don't know what that says about me, probably all sort of bad things. But as far as religion goes, I've never been on any sort of "normal" trajectory anyhow. Heck, I probably wouldn't even know traditional Catholicism if I didn't like to sleep in late on Sundays. I seem to do OK though, best I can tell.
quote: Originally posted by Ariel: Faith is a living thing, Catholicism can be a beautiful, enriching love affair with life and with God. None of that has ever come through in any of Ingo's posts that I've seen.
That is a reasonable criticism. But part of what I appreciate about Catholicism is an ... elegance that people around here mostly ignore, trample on or sneer at. How many people here have actually bothered reading and appreciating what I quoted from Aquinas about humility above? It was such a fine point in response to such a common attack... And the other parts of Catholicism that I really appreciate are personal. And I really am a rather private person. In case of doubt, I think my personal stuff is none of your business. Doubly so if "you" happens to be "the web", even if practically speaking this will only ever be seen by a tiny fraction of the web.
quote: Originally posted by Desert Daughter: The problem is that he wants a fight/an argument, but nobody else on the Ship seems to express an interest in taking him on.
Thanks for the mostly kind evaluation otherwise, but this is not really true. There are quite a number of people here who regularly take me on, and certainly a few that I cannot "beat" even in my own evaluation concerning various topics. (That's not to say that I think that they are right. But I cannot demonstrate that they are wrong at a level that I find satisfying.)
-------------------- They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Boogie: Your sig says it all MrsBeaky.
"It is better to be kind than right."
So you're saying that to be kind is to be right? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Robert Armin
 All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Sioni Sais: quote: Originally posted by Robert Armin: IngoB: quote: I consider SoF to be basically faith-destroying, an acid bath of negativity, sentimentality, unreason, worldliness and doubt.
Wow. If that bore any resemblance to how I saw the Ship I would have left it a long time ago - maybe never joined in the first place. If we can differ so much over something that is immediate and accessible, IB, maybe I shouldn't be surprised when we come to such different conclusions over matters of faith.
That's a bit unfair to pick one sentence from a lengthy paragraph: IngoB admits that this paints a grim picture but does go on to say what the Ship provides. FWIW I agree with him to a great extent and while he may be damning with faint praise, I wouldn't expect a whole lot more.
My intention wasn't to pick one sentence out of context, and so distort what IB was saying. If that's what I ended up doing I apologise. Rather, I was commenting on the power of perception. If I (metaphorically) stood on my head and squinted I might see the Ship in the way that IB describes it; from what I know of it and him I think I can see what he is getting at. But even in my most pissed off moment with the Ship, and I've had plenty of those over the years, I would never begin to describe it as he does. Now, if our perceptions and descriptions of something as finite and immediate as the Ship differ so widely, how much more will our attempts to describe the infinite and intangible?
[Tangent] Personally, I dislike it when someone quotes an entire post before answering it. Speaking for myself I rarely reread the first post, rather I scroll through it, and then try to work out which bit the new poster is responding to from what they write. My preference is for someone to pick out something particular, and then respond to that, and that is what I was trying to do with my earlier response to IB. However, I would hate SS to feel I was misrepresenting her/him, so on this occasion I've included everything she/he said before making my reply. [/Tangent]
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: But part of what I appreciate about Catholicism is an ... elegance that people around here mostly ignore, trample on or sneer at. How many people here have actually bothered reading and appreciating what I quoted from Aquinas about humility above?
We just don't expect elegance from a pugilist who has sworn that all he cares about is winning. It's like asking Rocky Balboa for a tour of lower Manhattan's art galleries. You'd never think to do it.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Rocky is from Philly.
-------------------- Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible. -Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Beeswax Altar: Rocky is from Philly.
And that's aNOTHer reason not to ask him for a tour of Manhattan art galleries.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
 Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Desert Daughter: quote: Originally posted by Ariel: Reading his posts can feel like being trodden on by a Cyberman, marching relentlessly up and down without any compassion or care about how the other person is feeling, no interest in even trying to see their point of view, it's just opposition that must be quashed and an argument that must be rebutted.
Yes. But IngoB sems to admit that he’s in the game for “battle-hardening” his theology. He does not want to “share” or be your friend, so get over it. The problem is that he wants a fight/an argument, but nobody else on the Ship seems to express an interest in taking him on. Why that is so, apart from a possible dislike of being sneered at, I do not know. The Ship would benefit from more theological argument.
Suddenly, the rationale for that half-arsed failure of a Duel board that IngoB tried to create is becoming apparent.
It was, however, a half-arsed failure. Precisely because the majority of Shipmates don't actually come here for a metaphorical/theological version of 2 knights putting on their jousting gear in order to become 'battle-hardened'. [ 15. April 2014, 02:34: Message edited by: orfeo ]
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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IngoB
 Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: Suddenly, the rationale for that half-arsed failure of a Duel board that IngoB tried to create is becoming apparent. It was, however, a half-arsed failure. Precisely because the majority of Shipmates don't actually come here for a metaphorical/theological version of 2 knights putting on their jousting gear in order to become 'battle-hardened'.
Wow, you had to dig deep there for an angle. But I will let St Erin the Evil-Eyed rest in peace.
If you are feeling depressed about the dysfunctional states of Hell, maybe you should start a therapy session in Styx?
-------------------- They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: Originally posted by MrsBeaky: It makes me sad though as I have to conclude that for you there would no possibility of mutual fellowship with someone like me. I'm not sure what you mean by "mutual fellowship", but unless that means something like "unconditional acceptance of every aspect of my life" to you, then I don't really see how this would be impossible for me.
Thanks for this, IngoB and for the further explanation which follows this quote. I think I can now see where you are coming from. As explanation: with my two RC friends we talk deeply about matters spiritual and doctrinal and have prayed with and for one another- this is what I mean by mutual fellowship, where we are "in it together", encouraging one another in our walk with Christ, despite differences!
And Fr Weber - very witty!
-------------------- "It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: It is true that I don't have any non-Catholic support group for my spiritual life. But then I don't have any Catholic support group either. In a strange sort of way, SoF is my support group, really. I don't know what that says about me, probably all sort of bad things.
Not bad things. But certainly not healthy. You're the guy who studies the fechtbucher*, talks about how effective various blocks and blows are, practices alone with his zweihander*...
But never stands shoulder to shoulder in a line with his comrades, facing the common foe. Things are different in battle, and for all the training you do, you don't seem to know how that goes.
No one stands alone against the Enemy. That might not bother you on these boards, but it should bother in Real Life. When the chips are down, Aquinas won't actually be able to pick you up and wipe away the tears - only fellow Christians will do that. Try not to piss them all off.
*fechtbuch - literally 'fight book', a sword training manual.
*zweihander - 'two handed' longsword.
-------------------- Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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IngoB
 Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Doc Tor: You're the guy who studies the fechtbucher*, talks about how effective various blocks and blows are, practices alone with his zweihander*...
That would be "Fechtbücher" and "Zweihänder", with an Umlaut and capitalised.
quote: Originally posted by Doc Tor: But never stands shoulder to shoulder in a line with his comrades, facing the common foe. Things are different in battle, and for all the training you do, you don't seem to know how that goes.
Let's move from the metaphors to reality. Where precisely do you see that "standing shoulder to shoulder" in everyday Christian practice today, and how is this "battle line" concretely "fighting" together, and whom or what are they actually "attacking"? Since you appear so certain that I'm missing out on something, you should be able to specify what.
quote: Originally posted by Doc Tor: No one stands alone against the Enemy. That might not bother you on these boards, but it should bother in Real Life. When the chips are down, Aquinas won't actually be able to pick you up and wipe away the tears - only fellow Christians will do that. Try not to piss them all off.
Do you believe then that Aquinas has withdrawn from this "spiritual battlefield" (which you need to explicate further) and is incommunicado with his "brothers in arms"?
-------------------- They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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orfeo
 Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: quote: Originally posted by orfeo: Suddenly, the rationale for that half-arsed failure of a Duel board that IngoB tried to create is becoming apparent. It was, however, a half-arsed failure. Precisely because the majority of Shipmates don't actually come here for a metaphorical/theological version of 2 knights putting on their jousting gear in order to become 'battle-hardened'.
Wow, you had to dig deep there for an angle. But I will let St Erin the Evil-Eyed rest in peace.
If you are feeling depressed about the dysfunctional states of Hell, maybe you should start a therapy session in Styx?
I've got idea how your response actually relates to what I posted. I didn't have to 'dig deep', I was reminded of the Duel board, which you attempted to set up within the period of my memory, by your own description of how you view the Ship together with Desert Daughter's commentary. No clicking on ancient threads required.
Nor has this got anything to do with Hell, because it's Purgatory where you spend most of your time trying to get yourself 'battle-hardened'. [ 15. April 2014, 10:21: Message edited by: orfeo ]
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by RuthW: quote: Originally posted by IngoB: quote: Originally posted by Evensong: I've been strengthened in my Anglicanism. I couldn't be prouder.
For Anglicans, pride comes after the fall.
I'll be using that one - thanks!
Quite rightly!
We've made the best of a messy situation.
We embrace difference, we are fairly democratic and we value free will while retaining the tradition of the early church.
Doesn't get better.
#proudface
-------------------- a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: Do you believe then that Aquinas has withdrawn from this "spiritual battlefield" ... and is incommunicado with his "brothers in arms"?
Well, he doesn't write much these days....
-------------------- MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: Since you appear so certain that I'm missing out on something, you should be able to specify what.
Fellowship.
Sorry to break it to you, but Aquinas is dead. You might find it easier hanging around a bunch of theology books, but that's not what Christian living is about. At all. Ever. Hanging about with real people is what puts your doxy into praxis.
-------------------- Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: And that's aNOTHer reason not to ask him for a tour of Manhattan art galleries.
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: Let's move from the metaphors to reality. Where precisely do you see that "standing shoulder to shoulder" in everyday Christian practice today, and how is this "battle line" concretely "fighting" together, and whom or what are they actually "attacking"? Since you appear so certain that I'm missing out on something, you should be able to specify what.
You big meanie: asking people to explain what they blithely assert.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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