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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: In Praise of IngoB!
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I'm a mere bystander here, but that's how it came across to me, too.
And hence you have decided to really work on your reading comprehension and prejudice. Well, thanks for sharing.
I see; so readers alone bear responsibility for miscommunications in a textual medium; writers bear none. Good to know; nobody need attempt book reviewing any more, as the profession's obviously based on mistaken assumptions.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I'm a mere bystander here, but that's how it came across to me, too.
And hence you have decided to really work on your reading comprehension and prejudice. Well, thanks for sharing.
I see; so readers alone bear responsibility for miscommunications in a textual medium; writers bear none. Good to know; nobody need attempt book reviewing any more, as the profession's obviously based on mistaken assumptions.
Or, to strip the irony aside... When IngoB reads, writers fails to communicate. When IngoB writes, readers fail to comprehend.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
...I cannot help it, I just **have** to analyse the discourse going on in this thread... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
...and it seems that this is a case of a total lack of acceptance of diversity. In other words: htere are Pharisees amongst us.
As much as a great number of deckhands profess their fuzzy warm feelings for each other, their undying fellowship, their tolerance and indeed outright celebration of each and any oddity (physical and otherwise) other deckhands choose to describe in sometimes great detail in the various forums, their unquestioning
support of every feminist fart (sorry. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Hell does get to me), their total worship of Diversity (TM), etc etc...
...their true colour comes out once they are faced with another kind of diversity: not one of colour, sex, gender, sexual & whatever other orientation, and whichever other category the PC thought police comes up with nowadays... no, here (i.e., in the "IngoB phenomenon") we have diversity in thought and speech , and this is something many people apparently cannot cope with. Modern politically correct urban society apparently leaves us so few opportunities and occasions to vent our honest anger, that many of us happily jump (mouths foaming...or at least keyboards steaming) onto the first occasion to beat on that which is different but not protected by any postmodern taboo.
The Ship is in danger of turning into a monoculture of self-righteous smurfs, warm in their zeal for political correctness if nothing else, loving the sign of peace whether in church or via the internet, fearing and actively loathing harsh words or provocative (if at times unsavoury) input.
Whether I personally agree with IngoB's approach to Roman Catholicism is not the point here. Neither is my personal opinion as to his style.
But there's another important issue - this is turning into a witch-hunt.
So here's my plea in line with the Zeitgeist : IngoB is a **minority**. Let's therefore cherish and protect and celebrate and embrace and (**insert other suitably great-sounding postmodern vocabulary here**) him.
Or why not?
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
<multi-crosspost, must keep it shorter again...>
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The KINDS of issues that people are discussing are not cold, hard factual ones. They are issues with a lot of nuance and emotional content.
One of the main problems is that I happen to think that most of theology is indeed akin to "cold, hard fact". Yes, "facts" of faith, not "proper facts" of empirical science. But not therefore an entirely different kind of thing as far as I am concerned, mostly just using a different mode of knowledge gathering and affirmation. Honestly, I do not see theology as all that different from the natural science I've studied. And I'm mostly interested in talking about theology, not about religious experiences and sentiments. But that does not sit well with people who approach taking about religion from that angle. (I would be interested in discussing prayer and contemplation, and other non-liturgical religious practices, concerning method and experience. But I feel SoF doesn't really have a proper board for doing that.)
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There is absolutely nothing in Purgatory to indicate that the appropriate mode of discussion involves being completely insensitive to the feelings of others, nor does it validate your attitude that big adults shouldn't complain if they get hurt by the manner in which you discuss things and that it's all their problem, not yours, just because you keep a little checklist besides you of the Ship's rules and don't break any of them.
It is obvious that the rules of Purgatory leave plenty of space for people to hurt each other. It is also obvious that the sort of discussions Purgatory invites will lead to people hurting each other. So obvious is this in fact, that the powers that be have decided to create an entire board to contain the inevitable and frequent angry conflict that arises primarily from discussions in Purgatory. The very existence of this very board of which you are a host argues my point. It is ridiculous that I have to argue in Hell to a Hell host the very fucking foundation of Hell. But anyway, back to me. Do I set out in Purgatory to hurt people? No, I do not. (Or at least only rarely. I am actually human and occasionally I do attack people under the guise of arguing fact. But that indeed is evil and shameful, and I do not defend such attacks of mine.) However I do present views that I know will be very contentious, and highly challenging to many present. Hence I know that there will be hurt and anger. Yet I think this is justifiable, given that it should be obvious that those things are on the cards in Purgatory.
Furthermore, I'm not in fact getting called to hell all the time about all manner of things. People are neutral and occasionally even happy about what I post and yes, also about how I post. I get compliments by PM every couple of months or so, and from different people. I'm getting called to hell over very specific topics, where I stick my neck out and refuse to back down against massively hostile opinion. And where precisely are the super-nice people that purportedly conquer hearts for my corner in such discussions?
If we get a traditional Catholic here, who will sweet-talk you into accepting as reasonable proposition worthy of your appreciative consideration the reality of heaven and hell, the appropriateness of Catholic sexual morality and natural family planning, the absurdity of Protestant-style reliance on the bible, the indissolubility of marriage, the correctness of the filioque, etc., without ever getting called to hell for being an asshole, then I will take off my hat to this person and watch in awe as he or she does what I really cannot do. (And yes, thanks, I'm aware of the usual suspects wheeled out as "nice & orthodox". I'm also aware that they rarely defend what I do, even more rarely hang in there as long as I do, and that where they stand strong against the tide they also are in acute danger of ending up here.)
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
That's all you. You choose that mode of discourse out of the range of possible modes of discourse. So stop presenting it as if it's the inherent mode of discourse and the rest of us are somehow stuffing it up.
You just pulled that one out of your ass. I never said anything like that. The only thing I'm saying is that I'm largely happy with my mode of discourse as it is.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If a person spent their time in real life society only taking into consideration the letter of the law and nothing else, I suspect they would be labelled as sociopathic.
What letter of the law am I following right here and now, orfeo? Why do I participate in this hell call?
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
A recent study showed that there's a correlation between people being 'trolls' on the internet and showing sociopathic traits in real life, because both involve the same disregard for how anyone else feels.
But I'm no troll, orfeo. So if you could pause in your rage that I just won't do what you think I should do, and be as you think I should be, then you could perhaps look at why all this "IngoB the social monster" stuff doesn't really quite add up. Or not.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And if you genuinely find that tiresome, well then, the solution is in your hands. Stop causing it. Because you are causing it. It's not caused by other people getting Purgatory wrong, it's caused by you making your personal choice to be an arsehole.
A man has got to do what a man has got to do.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If you don't genuinely find it tiresome, then STFU and stop saying that you do and just accept it's one of the costs of 'doing business' around here in your chosen manner.
The other function of Hell, I hear, is to give people space to bitch about the ills of the world. About all those things that are not right but which they cannot change. Without Hell, they would have to suffer in silence but thanks to this wonderful place they can get it off their chest.
And you have to read it all.
[ 24. April 2014, 19:30: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It is obvious that the rules of Purgatory leave plenty of space for people to hurt each other.
It's not required, though.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It is also obvious that the sort of discussions Purgatory invites will lead to people hurting each other.
Certainly. And quite often, when this happens, the posters involved recognize they've miscommunicated, try again right there on the thread, work out the problem, apologize as appropriate, and the discussion moves forward, with nobody called to Hell, no grudge matches scheduled, and no lasting damage.
What I've observed (and it's not likely I follow much of your posting, as our interests differ, so this is based on a small sample, and may therefore be unrepresentative of your oeuvre) is your apparent reluctance to acknowledge having any responsibility for any part of any miscommunication; it's always somebody else's failing.
Frankly, that's unrealistic; it really does take two to tango.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
So obvious is this in fact, that the powers that be have decided to create an entire board to contain the inevitable and frequent angry conflict that arises primarily from discussions in Purgatory. The very existence of this very board of which you are a host
blah blah blah off on an IngoBesque tangent which is, alas, utterly beside the point orfeo was attempting to address with you. Seriously: are you really supposing that orfeo hasn't quite grasped Hell? orfeo?!
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
One of the main problems is that I happen to think that most of theology is indeed akin to "cold, hard fact". Yes, "facts" of faith, not "proper facts" of empirical science. But not therefore an entirely different kind of thing as far as I am concerned, mostly just using a different mode of knowledge gathering and affirmation. Honestly, I do not see theology as all that different from the natural science I've studied. And I'm mostly interested in talking about theology, not about religious experiences and sentiments. But that does not sit well with people who approach taking about religion from that angle. (I would be interested in discussing prayer and contemplation, and other non-liturgical religious practices, concerning method and experience. But I feel SoF doesn't really have a proper board for doing that.)
I would be atheist with such an approach. Also tone deaf, art blind and would find poetry wordy. Have you found anything "sentimental" moving? Sorry for being mushy and of soft boiled brain.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
There's also something that has been bugging me about the whole " irrelevance of feeling" stance that Bingo has taken- there has been many times I have sensed that his posts are a lot more emotionally driven than he lets on. He crafts things in the language of academia, but I frequently see him lashing out with provocative remarks in a way that only makes sense to me if he was angry, or stung, or disgusted, or despairing, or spoiling for a reaction. Emotionally engaged, in other words.
Yes, indeed, I am a human being who emotionally engages. And your list of emotions is right on the money, at least for the sort of discussions that tend to lead to these hell calls. However, it is in fact my ideal to keep my emotions out of things. Or to be precise, to keep them tightly controlled and targeted, which is not exactly the same thing. There is a good reason why my favourite analogy is to boxing. People here tend to focus on how terrible it is to compare a discussion to people beating each other up etc. That's largely missing the point. Boxing is civilised. It is the sweet science. It has a ring. It has referees. It has rules of engagement. You touch gloves. You break when the referee tells you to do so. There are rounds. You do not hit low. When you do hit low, you apologise and points get subtracted from your score. ... When you knock somebody out, it is not a golden opportunity to kick him to pulp. When you bite another boxers ear off, that's not a celebrated tactic for winning but a career-ending move. When somebody has managed to beat the living daylights out of you, that's not an occasion to wait for him in a dark alley and murder him from behind. It is an occasion for respect and often even friendship, and motivation to train harder. Boxing, not war.
For me this is a spiritual battle zone, frankly just by virtue of who hangs out here. But I am a boxer, a martial artist. And this is a ring, a dojo. People also come here to drink coffee or tend to the Zen garden or whatever they do in the games room. Fine, I don't mind, to each his own. I look for people that want to dance a little, and so I hang out where the punch bags are swinging. Occasionally people tell me that my strikes are not caring enough, and that some of them actually stung. This is very confusing, in particular if it comes from bunch of weirdos who have just spent the better part of a bout trying to catch me with their endless lowkicks.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I'm now looking at his exchange with Boogie. He's going to deny this, i'm sure, but there is no way anyone is gonna convince me that what she was saying wasn't bugging him. His irritation drips from his posts.
Rather, I would be terribly annoyed if my carefully crafted counter was not appreciated for what it was. Hell is also more fight club than a boxing ring. Or perhaps it's Wrestlemania. Though I have to say, hats off to Boogie for her one-liner response. I hope everybody is getting the meta-level of that answer.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Sensing that,it becomes easier to translate his insistence that "emotions are irrelevant" as "emotions that aren't my own are irrelevant."
Rather, the counselling rooms are over there. Fear and pain? Suck it. Ferocity? Control it. Always disciplined. Focused. If you let your emotions get the better of you in a fight, you get your clock cleaned. That's just the way that works.
Of course, not all people are here for this. Not even all people in Purgatory. Perhaps few, though I think many people are just not ready to admit what they are actually doing. But anyway, it's what I do. It's what I want. It's OK with the rules of this place, best I can tell. And I will deal with my God's opinion about it all by my lonesome, if you please.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I had a re-read my post after the first negative comment. I found it clear enough,
Of course YOU found it clear, you dickfor. You wrote it. The question is whether it's clear to OTHERS. Which you are 100% incapable of judging, BY DEFINITION.
BTW, Real apologies don't include veiled insults or cutesy swipes. Sorry. By any reasonable scale of apologiology, it was fake.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It is also obvious that the sort of discussions Purgatory invites will lead to people hurting each other.
And when they do, they apologize and don't say "sucks to be you." If they're not assholes, I mean.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Here's a thought: you'll get more of what you want, if you don't be such a dick about what it is you want.
The more dickish you get, the less likely the rest of the players will cooperate with you. In the end, you'll just be mentally masturbating. And no one needs to see that.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Certainly. And quite often, when this happens, the posters involved recognize they've miscommunicated, try again right there on the thread, work out the problem, apologize as appropriate, and the discussion moves forward, with nobody called to Hell, no grudge matches scheduled, and no lasting damage.
The latter part indeed happens quite often, the former ... not so much.
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
What I've observed ... is your apparent reluctance to acknowledge having any responsibility for any part of any miscommunication; it's always somebody else's failing.
Interesting. Now I would say that most of the time when I find that something didn't get across as I expected it to, I try again. And again. And again. With considerable patience and quite a bit of inventiveness. Admittedly, if the exchange is heated anyhow, then the repetitions tend to be heated as well. But if not, then not. And even if they are heated, I do not simply repeat myself in an even louder or shriller voice, but tend to seek some new way forward. That's what I see myself as doing.
Perhaps we can find some reason for this disparity. It would not happen to have anything to do with me recently telling you that you did misread my post here, and that that really was pretty much all your fault? Recent experiences sometimes colour our recall of the past...
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Of course YOU found it clear, you dickfor. You wrote it. The question is whether it's clear to OTHERS. Which you are 100% incapable of judging, BY DEFINITION.
That's not really how that works. Or we should be helpless to ever improve our writing.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
BTW, Real apologies don't include veiled insults or cutesy swipes. Sorry. By any reasonable scale of apologiology, it was fake.
It was simply precise. I withdraw from "spiteful moron" to "prickly", my bad, and I will cease fire. For a while that is, we will see how things go.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
]And when they do, they apologize and don't say "sucks to be you." If they're not assholes, I mean.
You are confusing a statement from a rant in Hell with behaviour in Purgatory, and furthermore you are confusing a statement about how people deal with their duties to each other, or the lack thereof, with a reaction to hurt in others. Finally, you skipping lightly over the whole issue of how hurt is actually expressed in Purgatory, and how such expressions become a rhetorical tool in their own right.
I assume that you know what you are doing. So why exactly are you doing it?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
For me this is a spiritual battle zone, frankly just by virtue of who hangs out here. But I am a boxer, a martial artist. And this is a ring, a dojo. People also come here to drink coffee or tend to the Zen garden or whatever they do in the games room. Fine, I don't mind, to each his own. I look for people that want to dance a little, and so I hang out where the punch bags are swinging.
Except that's all in YOUR head, not necessarily in the heads of the other people in Purgatory.
A perfect illustration again, by the way, of why you wanted that Duel board. Because it was basically a recreation of Purgatory in this image, with these rules explicit so that anyone else turning up to 'box' with you would know that they were boxing.
And no-one turned up. No-one wanted it.
You're almost certainly aware of this, but you bury it deep down and carry on believing that everyone in Purgatory is there for a bit of boxing. Or should be. You believe that they've somehow blundered across the ropes separating this 'boxing ring' from elsewhere.
What actually happens, though, is that most other people have a different mental image of Purgatory. It has an element of serious intent, yes, but the serious discussion is happening more casually. Some kind of group setting (honestly, how you keep going with the boxing stuff when nothing about a message board is set up for one-on-one contest is beyond me - your favourite analogy is ludicrously inadequate on this point, which is why you wanted the Duel board).
Basically, other people walk up to you or sit down at the table you're hanging around, or whatever, and engage in debate - possibly quite serious debate - and you bring your gloved hand up and tap them under the jaw. Maybe not hard, but you've come to the cafe / meeting room wearing boxing gloves.
"Hey, stop that!" they say. You give them a little punch to the chest. "What are you doing?! Stop that!" An uppercut to the other side of the jaw. "WTF! WILL YOU CUT THAT OUT!"
"Crybaby", you mutter as you walk away, irritated that your 'opponent' didn't glove up before walking into the room.
[ 25. April 2014, 00:10: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Again, spot on, orfeo. For me reading Purg is about learning more , not battling anyone. If I battle everyone, I set myself up to learn nothing.
Desert Daughter, while I do think we can get dogpiley on occasion, in this case the guy at the bottom so clearly enjoys the process it's hard to feel too bad about this pile.
Again, emotions. He thrives on this shit.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Of course YOU found it clear, you dickfor. You wrote it. The question is whether it's clear to OTHERS. Which you are 100% incapable of judging, BY DEFINITION.
That's not really how that works. Or we should be helpless to ever improve our writing.
Non sequitur. There are lots of things to improve about one's writing that don't involve getting inside one specific person's head. They do involve having a bit of empathy for how other people read, but that doesn't imply you will be able to discern for everything you write in every context and for every reader how they will take it. Perhaps this is the problem: you overgeneralize from "I usually can tell when I write something that the vast majority of people won't get" to "I can tell for every single thing I write exactly how it will come across to all readers who aren't idiots by my definition."
Perhaps with the codicil that your definition includes people who don't understand what you write in the way you intended it.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
BTW, Real apologies don't include veiled insults or cutesy swipes. Sorry. By any reasonable scale of apologiology, it was fake.
It was simply precise.
Fuck if it is. Cutesy bits about prickly beards are not a part of a sincere apology. You're smart enough to know this, therefore you are lying.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And when they do, they apologize and don't say "sucks to be you." If they're not assholes, I mean.
You are confusing a statement from a rant in Hell with behaviour in Purgatory,
Oh. So you apologize in Purgatory, then come to Hell and say you don't intend to apologize? No, I don't think you generally apologize in Purgatory when you ride roughshod over people. You have said you don't, and that it's foolish for us to expect you to, and we have seen that you don't. So let's not have any bullshit about the different you in Purg and Hell. It's the same you, and the same behavior, just tailored to the rules of the two boards. Either way, you act like an asshole.
quote:
and furthermore you are confusing a statement about how people deal with their duties to each other, or the lack thereof, with a reaction to hurt in others.
And the difference here would be?
quote:
Finally, you skipping lightly over the whole issue of how hurt is actually expressed in Purgatory, and how such expressions become a rhetorical tool in their own right.
And this matters why?
quote:
I assume that you know what you are doing. So why exactly are you doing it?
Why do you care why I am doing it? That's motivations. Squishy people stuff. You hate that stuff.
[ 25. April 2014, 01:08: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And no-one turned up. No-one wanted it.
Both statements are factually incorrect. However, anybody who really wants to dig up this particular ancient history can read this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You believe that they've somehow blundered across the ropes separating this 'boxing ring' from elsewhere.
Not exactly. I'm saying that I for one am "boxing" in Purgatory, and that I see that as perfectly legitimate use of Purgatory. If you choose to have your origami meeting right in my 'boxing ring', then your paper folding may occasionally get ruffled by a jab. You can complain all you want about that, I think it is just a consequence of your bad choice of location.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Some kind of group setting (honestly, how you keep going with the boxing stuff when nothing about a message board is set up for one-on-one contest is beyond me - your favourite analogy is ludicrously inadequate on this point, which is why you wanted the Duel board).
Every analogy has its weaknesses. Otherwise it would be an identity. And the number of high volume participants in any discussion is usually quite small.
I am however glad that the last eight pages have been so deeply satisfying that the notion of trying some different approach is entirely absurd to you. Let's try to keep this up for another eight pages at least, shall we? I wouldn't want to deprive you of this joy.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Basically, other people walk up to you or sit down at the table you're hanging around, or whatever, and engage in debate - possibly quite serious debate - and you bring your gloved hand up and tap them under the jaw. Maybe not hard, but you've come to the cafe / meeting room wearing boxing gloves. "Hey, stop that!" they say. You give them a little punch to the chest. "What are you doing?! Stop that!" An uppercut to the other side of the jaw. "WTF! WILL YOU CUT THAT OUT!" "Crybaby", you mutter as you walk away, irritated that your 'opponent' didn't glove up before walking into the room.
First, they are not sitting down at some table. They are standing around in the middle of my ring, and usually they are throwing some punches in the air or beat their chest and flex their muscles. Second, they do not actually say "stop" much in the beginning, or indeed ever. Rather, many flail ineffectually at me. Some people respond instantly with well practiced and targeted strikes. And some people try to kick me in the nuts, as hard as they can. Third, the complaining usually starts in round nine or ten of some particularly heavily fought bout, where I myself look decidedly worse for the wear. And then I get dragged from the ring to this other room, where we get to use any weapon we want to mutilate each other and a whole bunch of shady characters with butterfly knives and baseball bats are hanging about, looking for trouble. Brilliant conflict resolution strategy, that.
Anyway, all this imagery is skewed by the fact that I only ever get to talk about this when we are in fact here discussing threads that have turned sour. My contribution here for example has little to do with "boxing", and I expect that no particular conflict will arise from it. Whereas the thread this here spawned from has the seeds of conflict right there in the OP. Though actually it is a bit of an unusual OP, since it is sort of invoking the conflict by proxy. A more typical one concerning the same topic is here. Is this just "sitting down at a table"? Hardly. I would in fact argue that it has fully opened the boxing exchange by intentionally getting a couple of heavy shots in.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
What I've observed ... is your apparent reluctance to acknowledge having any responsibility for any part of any miscommunication; it's always somebody else's failing.
. . .
Perhaps we can find some reason for this disparity. It would not happen to have anything to do with me recently telling you that you did misread my post here, and that that really was pretty much all your fault? Recent experiences sometimes colour our recall of the past...
(My italics)
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Well, thanks for the free demonstration.
If I recall, it was Autenrieth Road who first, er, "misread" the passage in question (originally addressed to Erroneous Monk). I seconded. I have no idea whether anyone else followed suit. Would you like to find out? I confess to some curiosity on this point.
How many contributors to this thread would have to have understood your post to Erroneous Monk in the way that AR and I did for you to begin to wonder whether you might bear any responsibility for what you claim is a misreading?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Ingo, the shift in that last post between "It's legitimate to use it as a boxing ring" and "It IS a boxing ring" (and so therefore you are having your origami group in a boxing ring was beautifully subtle.
But still wrong.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Here's a thought: you'll get more of what you want, if you don't be such a dick about what it is you want.
Are you addressing this to me? We are not here because I am complaining about not getting what I want.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Desert Daughter, while I do think we can get dogpiley on occasion, in this case the guy at the bottom so clearly enjoys the process it's hard to feel too bad about this pile.
Your lucky run has ended. I very much do not enjoy this process. I deal with it.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
They do involve having a bit of empathy for how other people read, but that doesn't imply you will be able to discern for everything you write in every context and for every reader how they will take it.
Indeed, we can agree on that. However, you did not say that one cannot predict the effect of one's writings on 100% of the readers. You said that one is 100% incapable of judging how clear something is to others. Thus, that one cannot predict the effect of one's writing on any reader at all. That is clearly not true.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Fuck if it is. Cutesy bits about prickly beards are not a part of a sincere apology. You're smart enough to know this, therefore you are lying.
When one is downgrading reluctantly from "spiteful moron" to "prickly", then cutesy bits relieve some of the tension. And yes, my apology is not terribly heartfelt. But it is also not a lie. It is the formal expression of an effort to step back. You could make that apology heartfelt, retroactively, by confirming its appropriateness.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh. So you apologize in Purgatory, then come to Hell and say you don't intend to apologise?
Huh? I thought you were making an explicit reference to my actual use of the words "sucks to be you" here. I do not recall using them in Purgatory recently.
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
How many contributors to this thread would have to have understood your post to Erroneous Monk in the way that AR and I did for you to begin to wonder whether you might bear any responsibility for what you claim is a misreading?
Active participants in my hell call? It's a bit of a tough crowd, wouldn't you say?
OK, here's what I actually said there in reference to Erroneous Monk and myself:
"Anyway, whether I have been given a talent more or less than you, as far as God is concerned it will result only in more or less of a duty to do something with them. And we can marvel at the people with ten talents together, for that certainly is not me. I'm just proud that I managed to put a talent into a "bank account" where it will hopefully make some interest. That's the extent of my claim for fame..."
All the rest was a straightforward exegesis (whether you agree with it or not is a different matter) with no personal reference. So. How exactly do we get from that to
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Translation: I, IngoB, have been given a lot, and you, Erroneous Monk, have not. And I, IngoB, am at least in the role of the 5-talent servant, using my talents correctly, while you, Erroneous Monk, are in the role of the 1-talent servant, and in danger of doing things all wrong.
Help me out here, since you apparently read this in the same way? I don't get it. I don't see a claim that I have more than EM, rather a statement that whether I have more or less than her does not matter. I don't see a claim that I'm in the role of the 5-talent servant (same guy as the 10-talent one, just counting the return), indeed, I see an explicit denial that I am one. I also see no identification of EM with the 1-talent servant, rather a very clear hint that I identify myself with that servant - except that I have taken the master's advice to at least bring that one talent to a bank to gain some interest on it). Well?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
First, they are not sitting down at some table. They are standing around in the middle of my ring,
No. This is Simon's Venue or it is OUR venue. That is actually important.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And then I get dragged from the ring to this other room, where we get to use any weapon we want to mutilate each other and a whole bunch of shady characters with butterfly knives and baseball bats are hanging about, looking for trouble. Brilliant conflict resolution strategy, that.
Yes, there are people who will jump in to Hell calls with little agenda other than stirring the pot. But most are letting off steam generated in Purg or another board.
The thing is, no one gets dragged to Hell. No one is forced to stay. You take only as much a beating as you choose.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
A separate thought, IngoB, on your attempts to explain to me the purpose of Hell:
I also understand the purpose of jails. That doesn't mean I have to enjoy seeing them fill up.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
OK, here's what I actually said there in reference to Erroneous Monk and myself:
"Anyway, whether I have been given a talent more or less than you, as far as God is concerned it will result only in more or less of a duty to do something with them. And we can marvel at the people with ten talents together, for that certainly is not me. I'm just proud that I managed to put a talent into a "bank account" where it will hopefully make some interest. That's the extent of my claim for fame..."
All the rest was a straightforward exegesis (whether you agree with it or not is a different matter) with no personal reference. So. How exactly do we get from that to
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Translation: I, IngoB, have been given a lot, and you, Erroneous Monk, have not. And I, IngoB, am at least in the role of the 5-talent servant, using my talents correctly, while you, Erroneous Monk, are in the role of the 1-talent servant, and in danger of doing things all wrong.
Help me out here, since you apparently read this in the same way? I don't get it. I don't see a claim that I have more than EM, rather a statement that whether I have more or less than her does not matter. I don't see a claim that I'm in the role of the 5-talent servant (same guy as the 10-talent one, just counting the return), indeed, I see an explicit denial that I am one. I also see no identification of EM with the 1-talent servant, rather a very clear hint that I identify myself with that servant - except that I have taken the master's advice to at least bring that one talent to a bank to gain some interest on it). Well?
Ah, yes ... reminds me of the early years in my marriage as I learned just how differently my family communicated compared to my wife's family. Time after time, their feelings were hurt by some innocent remark that I made. As my wife explained their point of view in each case over the years, I gradually realized that their whole purpose in having a conversation was utterly different than in my family. I grew up in a family that was emotionally very cool, but very secure. We talked about ideas for their own sake, and the more precisely we expressed our ideas, the less misunderstanding there was. The purpose of conversation in my family was to have fun with the ideas.
My wife, however, grew up in a family that was extremely warm, but highly insecure. Ideas for their own sake were pretty boring and worthless - their value was only in advancing a personal cause, usually for expressing either approval or disapproval. Directness was avoided at all costs because expressing emotional needs made one highly vulnerable. Expressing an idea was the normal way to make an emotional point, and other people were expected to understand that and respond accordingly. Any such point that was missed or rejected caused hurt feelings, but nothing like the hurt that would be caused by someone rejecting a plainly stated emotional plea outright. Being indirect meant that hurt feelings could always be resolved by "clearing the air" and claiming that there was a misunderstanding. Normal conversation was essentially an emotional negotiation among the participants to support or correct each other through indirect approval or disapproval.
So whenever I expressed an idea because it seemed interesting in its own right, or simply because I thought it was pertinent to the conversation, their natural reaction was to focus on figuring out why I would bring up such an idea and who I was trying to support or oppose by doing so. Naturally, I naively got myself in a lot of trouble with them before I figured out what was going on, and often my attempts to be precise just made things worse because it made them think I was trying to amplify the emotional point they assumed I was making.
But over time, I realized that while conversations in my wife's family were always emotional minefields, they were also more complex and richer and therefore more rewarding than what I had grown up with, although only because I cared very much about becoming a part of their family.
What I am seeing here may not bear much similarity to my experience, but it strikes me as highlighting the same kind of differences in fundamental assumptions regarding the very purpose of having a conversation. And without any strong motivation from at least one side to adapt and account for the other, I'm not optimistic that there will ever be much resolution.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
No offense, W Hyatt, but I think a path between those extremes more the goal.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Here's a thought: you'll get more of what you want, if you don't be such a dick about what it is you want.
Are you addressing this to me? We are not here because I am complaining about not getting what I want.
No, but while we are here, you're complaining that theological pugilism (which is what you're here for) isn't everyone's cup of tea.
And to quote a subsequent analogy, you're hitting people when they don't expect to be hit. That's being a dick. Be less of a dick, and (some) people might be willing to give you a little of what you want. Keep on being a dick, and you'll get even less of it than you do now because you'll be ignored - at least by the people you've already beaten up.
And before you get to say "that's because my arguments are better than theirs", most of us aren't here to be beaten up. This is more a pub, less of a boxing ring.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
If you choose to have your origami meeting right in my 'boxing ring', then your paper folding may occasionally get ruffled by a jab. You can complain all you want about that, I think it is just a consequence of your bad choice of location.
Paper, scissors, stone.
I go to Purgatory because I find it interesting. I think through what's said, offer the occasional opinion and ask a few questions. I have no weapons to fight with - but will occasionally catch and bend someone's sword to cause them to pause a moment.
Faith, and matters of faith are important to me but I wouldn't fight over them. When the battle gets nasty I back off. Life's too good and too short.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I go to Purgatory because I find it interesting. I think through what's said, offer the occasional opinion and ask a few questions. I have no weapons to fight with - but will occasionally catch and bend someone's sword to cause them to pause a moment.
Faith, and matters of faith are important to me but I wouldn't fight over them. When the battle gets nasty I back off. Life's too good and too short.
I do both, sometimes on the same thread. I enjoy the cut-and-thrust style of debate that IngoB exemplifies, not least because such an uncompromising opponent forces me to really examine my own position in true depth. He may not have ever managed to convince me of the rightness of his position, but his argumentation has led me to far greater insights into God, theology and the world than I'd have ever reached otherwise, purely because without those insights I'd have been unable to keep getting up off the canvas and swinging back at him. In some ways he's taught me more about what I believe than anyone who happens to believe the same things as me.
That's not to say he doesn't piss me off, because he does. But that's because of the theology he's defending, not his way of defending it.
I kinda wish there were more people like IngoB on these boards. He may never be my theological ally, but by God he is a worthy and respected opponent.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Hear hear.
IngoB is one of the two most influential Christians I have ever 'met', and I've learnt more from him about the errors of my atheist thinking than from any other source. And that's BECAUSE he totally boxes my head in, not despite it.
Seriously, you're all a bunch of fucking babies.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Yes Yorick, because you've shown yourself to be such a mature resilient adult at all times.
Ease up on the hyperbole.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
The worst that can truthfully be said about mousethief is he's sometimes a bit prickly.
That is simply incorrect. He is capable of quite vicious nastiness, and when I was more open to such things he caused me serious and genuine hurt. It was deliberate and clever and very real. He has a dark and mean side, does our beloved little mousey.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yes Yorick, because you've shown yourself to be such a mature resilient adult at all times.
Ease up on the hyperbole.
Well, I guess you're referring to my calling you all fucking babies. But I thought we were in Hell.
Well okay, let's try this, sans hyperbole. Some of you seem overly preoccupied with IngoB being inadequately 'nice', when in fact he plays a very valuable and uniquely significant role to some of us when he isn't.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ingo, the shift in that last post between "It's legitimate to use it as a boxing ring" and "It IS a boxing ring" (and so therefore you are having your origami group in a boxing ring was beautifully subtle. But still wrong.
The problem is that there are various interest groups, and they are all crammed into one space with no separation by timetable, uniform or anything else. Actually it's worse. Almost everybody does everything at some point or another. It's just that some people have a clearer preference than others. And before the discussion goes to Hell it has often carried on for considerable time, with all sides beating on all other sides quite happily. It just is not the case usually that some poor innocent origamista is being bludgeoned to death by an insensitive boxing bully. It's more that a few people have been beating the snot out of each other, and one of them wants to throw the towel or start kicking their opponent in the nuts. Actually, usually they want both, or one disguised as the other. Go ahead and read the thread this hell call came from, for example. It just was not a meeting of the water-colour painters, and I hardly was the only one firing shots there. Heck, read the bloody OP here. I'm not sure what comparing someone's God to a violent child abuser is, but it sure is no origami. However, once we get here it rarely is a focused discussion of whether I landed a low shot somewhere. That would be something that could lead to an honest and quick apology. But no, it's all about the horrors of some people duking it out in Purgatory, and the even greater horror of me finding that basically OK and even enjoying it for the most part. And I will just not move a fucking inch concerning that, even if we do this here till the end of time.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The thing is, no one gets dragged to Hell. No one is forced to stay. You take only as much a beating as you choose.
All this is true, if one has no interest in what other Shipmates individually and the Ship as a community think about oneself. Otherwise it is plain false. That I'm not competing for the spot of the most beloved or popular Shipmate, or the softest shoulder to cry on, does not mean that I absolutely do not give a crap about anything. I think that it is actually pretty damn obvious where I invest shitloads of energy to maintain a "Ship-internal reputation". And no, I'm not talking about being the biggest badass in town, or the most ultra Catholic. However, that's all I will say about that. Because I honestly think that there are some really mean people around, and if they haven't figured out what's going on then that is just fine with me.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
A separate thought, IngoB, on your attempts to explain to me the purpose of Hell: I also understand the purpose of jails. That doesn't mean I have to enjoy seeing them fill up.
I never had any doubt that you know what Hell is for. And my rhetorical move of explaining it to you was not about telling the world that you love your job as Hell host. I hope that you do, but that was not the point. Rather it was to affirm the negative consequences I was drawing from the stated aims of Purgatory by their embodiment as Hell.
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
Ah, yes ... reminds me of the early years in my marriage as I learned just how differently my family communicated compared to my wife's family.
Interesting analysis. However, Autenrieth Road and Porridge are not my wives. In fact, I wasn't even talking to them. I was talking to Erroneous Monk, and as always, to the anonymous crowd of listeners. Until they raged at me, I had no idea that they were listening. And I neither see it as my duty, nor is it in my opinion even possible, to adapt my writing so as to be compatible with the emotional state of everybody out there. So if Erroneous Monk had responded angrily, then it would have been a somewhat different matter. As it is, frankly I don't think this is my problem. Furthermore, this is a written interaction. One of the big advantages of that is that one can read at one's own pace, and re-read as often as one wants, what the other is saying. And one does not have to respond instantly either, the conversation here is ticking along much slower than a spoken one. In consequence, there is no real excuse here for arriving at conclusions that are demonstrably the opposite of what was written. And no, in this particular case I do not think that this is a matter of interpretation. So, while I appreciate your point, it is more interesting to me concerning "real world" settings.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
No, but while we are here, you're complaining that theological pugilism (which is what you're here for) isn't everyone's cup of tea.
Nope, I haven't done that. I have complained that people insist that I must do origami instead or be a bad person.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And to quote a subsequent analogy, you're hitting people when they don't expect to be hit. That's being a dick.
I've been arguing with orfeo about this. In my opinion, if you wander into Purgatory without expecting to be hit with some frequency, then you are being stupid: you then have ignored the official header of Purgatory (what do you think "so long as you can stand being challenged" means?) as well as the unofficial but frequently affirmed reason for the existence of Hell (to contain explosive exchanges mostly originating in Purgatory).
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Be less of a dick, and (some) people might be willing to give you a little of what you want. Keep on being a dick, and you'll get even less of it than you do now because you'll be ignored - at least by the people you've already beaten up.
I'm sure that I will experience a drastic shortage of willing opponents some time soon. Or maybe not. Let's cross that bridge if we ever get there, shall we?
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I have no weapons to fight with - but will occasionally catch and bend someone's sword to cause them to pause a moment.
Very high level soft martial arts then, I will approach with considerable care.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Faith, and matters of faith are important to me but I wouldn't fight over them. When the battle gets nasty I back off.
Only to return when people are exhausted and do a little neck break here and a little backstab there. Sneaky, sneaky ninjas...
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I kinda wish there were more people like IngoB on these boards. He may never be my theological ally, but by God he is a worthy and respected opponent.
Thanks for the kind words, Marvin. This is exactly what I was trying to get at earlier. There is such a thing as deep respect and even friendship that arises out of rather than being destroyed by fighting hard with each other. It's difficult to explain if one hasn't experienced it, but I value it highly. It depends crucially on certain spoken or unspoken rules of engagement though, a certain attitude of both sides as they lock horns. (And in fact, I think this points to an alternative to "soft ecumenism", one I could get behind. But that's perhaps too much of a tangent now.)
Also thanks, Yorick, much appreciated.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
No, but while we are here, you're complaining that theological pugilism (which is what you're here for) isn't everyone's cup of tea.
Nope, I haven't done that. I have complained that people insist that I must do origami instead or be a bad person.
No, they're actually asking you to be less of a dick. Not dickless. There is a difference, and one which you seem to be either unable or unwilling to comprehend.
[ 25. April 2014, 10:48: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
No, they're actually asking you to be less of a dick. Not dickless. There is a difference, and one which you seem to be either unable or unwilling to comprehend.
So what you are saying is that I am hung like a donkey, but really should consider grinding my manhood down to a micro-dick like yours?
I guess penis envy is in the hand of the beholder.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Desert Daughter, while I do think we can get dogpiley on occasion, in this case the guy at the bottom so clearly enjoys the process it's hard to feel too bad about this pile.
Your lucky run has ended. I very much do not enjoy this process. I deal with it.
Seriously?
If so, just stop posting on this thread. It will end.
To do so is not a defeat. It's a recognition of the vagaries and difficulties of human sin and our limitations.
Engaging further ( however pure our motives ) only deepens the mire.
A wise woman (Kelly Alves) once told me to just take a break from Hell for a while when I was frequently at the bottom of a dogpile.
Twas good advice.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
That's very true, Evensong; but the great thing about being at the bottom is that you get tons of attention. You know the boy who keeps leaving his coat at school, and his mum bawls him out. He's getting something at least, and he's not being ignored.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
No, they're actually asking you to be less of a dick. Not dickless. There is a difference, and one which you seem to be either unable or unwilling to comprehend.
So what you are saying is that I am hung like a donkey, but really should consider grinding my manhood down to a micro-dick like yours?
I guess penis envy is in the hand of the beholder.
Having is not being. This applies especially to big dicks.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
That's very true, Evensong; but the great thing about being at the bottom is that you get tons of attention.
Yes.
Which can be fun for awhile.
But a dogpile eventually erodes and eats at your soul and becomes an awful thing.
If Bingo has reached that point, it's time to withdraw.
He's not a bad man.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Having is not being. This applies especially to big dicks.
So you run the same ambiguity that I have used to create an amusing (*) insult backwards to insult me. How creative. You should choose a profession that plays to your talents. Hmm, Senior Pencil Sharpener and Paper Clip Counter, perhaps?
(*) Well, it amused me.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Evensong
It's impossible to say if IngoB is craving attention.
I knew quite a few women (through work), who would always end up with a boy-friend who beat them up. They would often say, 'but he loves me really'. The weird thing is that maybe he did, but then you can get a boy-friend who loves you, and doesn't beat you up. But boy, is it addictive to be beaten up.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
No, they're actually asking you to be less of a dick. Not dickless. There is a difference, and one which you seem to be either unable or unwilling to comprehend.
So what you are saying is that I am hung like a donkey, but really should consider grinding my manhood down to a micro-dick like yours?
I guess penis envy is in the hand of the beholder.
There are some big swinging dicks around here but most of those who fall into that category know not to parade them in public. All. The. Time.
There's a difference between having one and being one. Again, you are singularly and wilfully obtuse on this.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
A few years ago, I sat next to Bingo at dinner.
I'd recently started a thread in Hell about him and, on quite few other occasions commented on what a complete dick he is.
Before he arrived (it was a ship meet) there was some tension about how it would all go. Given that I - and most of the others at the table - had said some quite rude things about him, we were a tad nervous.
He arrived a bit late. He sat next to me.
He had not the slightest clue about - or interest in - who anyone else at the table was. He didn't ask. I don't think he cared who anyone else was, to be frank.
He was perfectly polite. He talked endlessly about himself.
He told us how clever he is.
He is clever. No doubt about it.
But he's still a dick.
And he has no idea about how to relate to anyone.
God will sigh heavily when Bingo gets to the pearly gates. He'll find out what he's been doing wrong all this time.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
That's very true, Evensong; but the great thing about being at the bottom is that you get tons of attention. You know the boy who keeps leaving his coat at school, and his mum bawls him out. He's getting something at least, and he's not being ignored.
Yes, what this world really needs is a psychological analysis that pins the blame to the person at the bottom of the dog pile. A truly enabling effort that will be appreciated by dogs everywhere. Of course, if we strip away the sophistication, then "he asked for it, didn't he?" is not exactly the most original justification ever. But the packaging makes all the difference, doesn't it? And that's why we need professionals on the job.
Anyway, dog piles just demonstrate the basic cowardice and nastiness of people. The more people are ganging up on someone, the safer it usually is to attack the same person. The best way of dealing with dog piles is hence to keep on hitting back hard at everybody who has a go. Dealing with an able defender and getting their own noses bloodied is not what this was supposed to be about, and soon the number of dogs begins to shrink.
And yes, I have no respect for this behaviour at all, even if one feels that one has a genuine grievance. The appropriate reaction to a hell call generally is "Oh well, somebody else got there first I guess. That will do for the offender, even if it doesn't exactly address all of my anger." It should rarely be "Yay, into the fray. And here, take that one. Look how I can hurt you, too." That's just plain fucking sad.
Anyway, I'm actually mildly surprised how long it is taking me to whittle down the dog numbers this time. Either this is because it has been quite a while since my last Hell call, or because the reality of hell really pisses people off, at Dead Horse levels. Or both.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
I cross-posted with this.
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
A few years ago, I sat next to Bingo at dinner.
I'd recently started a thread in Hell about him and, on quite few other occasions commented on what a complete dick he is.
Before he arrived (it was a ship meet) there was some tension about how it would all go. Given that I - and most of the others at the table - had said some quite rude things about him, we were a tad nervous.
He arrived a bit late. He sat next to me.
He had not the slightest clue about - or interest in - who anyone else at the table was. He didn't ask. I don't think he cared who anyone else was, to be frank.
He was perfectly polite. He talked endlessly about himself.
He told us how clever he is.
He is clever. No doubt about it.
But he's still a dick.
And he has no idea about how to relate to anyone.
FWIW, none of the previous 8 pages of posts particularly fazes me.
This one hurts.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
best way of dealing with dog piles is hence to keep on hitting back hard at everybody who has a go. Dealing with an able defender and getting their own noses bloodied is not what this was supposed to be about, and soon the number of dogs begins to shrink.
(snip)
Anyway, I'm actually mildly surprised how long it is taking me to whittle down the dog numbers this time. Either this is because it has been quite a while since my last Hell call, or because the reality of hell really pisses people off, at Dead Horse levels. Or both.
A battle of attrition has never been the best way to deal with a dogpile in the long term. Short term yes - you can win a few over but long term - no.
I think you're confusing people backing down by getting their noses bloodied with sheer, eventual boredom.
The reason this one might be taking longer is that there has been a lot less personal fire in Hell than usual recently: no fresh meat around.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
A few years ago, I sat next to Bingo at dinner.
I'd recently started a thread in Hell about him and, on quite few other occasions commented on what a complete dick he is.
Before he arrived (it was a ship meet) there was some tension about how it would all go. Given that I - and most of the others at the table - had said some quite rude things about him, we were a tad nervous.
He arrived a bit late. He sat next to me.
He had not the slightest clue about - or interest in - who anyone else at the table was. He didn't ask. I don't think he cared who anyone else was, to be frank.
He was perfectly polite. He talked endlessly about himself.
He told us how clever he is.
He is clever. No doubt about it.
But he's still a dick.
And he has no idea about how to relate to anyone.
God will sigh heavily when Bingo gets to the pearly gates. He'll find out what he's been doing wrong all this time.
Odd that. That's not the impression others that have met him have given.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
Well, here's the thing, Ingo.
All around you are people who have different, and quite valid, ideas and ways of looking at the world.
And, even if they are wrong - which they may very well be (but then, so might you) - it's not a bad idea to listen to them, and acknowledge who they are, and get to know them and take on board what they say and maybe, just once in a while, wonder whether you might be wrong and whether it even bloody matters.
And if you do meet with them - those who you engage with on these boards - and put faces to the names (you need to remember the names which you can only do if you actually take note of what they say and what their values and beliefs are), be friendly and talk about them, as much as you do about you.
You need to start taking notice of other people. Stop treating everyone else as fools. It's tedious.
And lighten up. We have a new pope. He seems like fun. Be a fun Catholic. Please.
ETA: I've met Ian. He thought I was way more fun.
[ 25. April 2014, 12:49: Message edited by: Left at the Altar ]
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
A few years ago, I sat next to Bingo at dinner.
I'd recently started a thread in Hell about him and, on quite few other occasions commented on what a complete dick he is.
Before he arrived (it was a ship meet) there was some tension about how it would all go. Given that I - and most of the others at the table - had said some quite rude things about him, we were a tad nervous.
He arrived a bit late. He sat next to me.
He had not the slightest clue about - or interest in - who anyone else at the table was. He didn't ask. I don't think he cared who anyone else was, to be frank.
He was perfectly polite. He talked endlessly about himself.
He told us how clever he is.
He is clever. No doubt about it.
But he's still a dick.
And he has no idea about how to relate to anyone.
God will sigh heavily when Bingo gets to the pearly gates. He'll find out what he's been doing wrong all this time.
Odd that. That's not the impression others that have met him have given.
Maybe others were being polite.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I cross-posted with this.
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
A few years ago, I sat next to Bingo at dinner.
I'd recently started a thread in Hell about him and, on quite few other occasions commented on what a complete dick he is.
Before he arrived (it was a ship meet) there was some tension about how it would all go. Given that I - and most of the others at the table - had said some quite rude things about him, we were a tad nervous.
He arrived a bit late. He sat next to me.
He had not the slightest clue about - or interest in - who anyone else at the table was. He didn't ask. I don't think he cared who anyone else was, to be frank.
He was perfectly polite. He talked endlessly about himself.
He told us how clever he is.
He is clever. No doubt about it.
But he's still a dick.
And he has no idea about how to relate to anyone.
FWIW, none of the previous 8 pages of posts particularly fazes me.
This one hurts.
Assuming that Left at the Altar's post accurately recounts an actual event, it's interesting in that it tends to undercut the idea that one's internet personality is at all likely to be substantially different from one's personality style IRL. Of course, this is just an N=1 case study, but I seem to recall that Ingo has in the past implied that his SoF self-presentation isn't to be taken as representative of his relational style IRL. He's also stated that the community aspects of SoF aren't particularly important to him, as they are to some shipmates. Those two assertions would seem to be rather mutually contradictory.
Now, having said that, I think it's also clear that many people, myself included, are more likely to veer into rude verbal aggression on internet fora than how they would ever comport themselves IRL. Ingo might actually be someone for whom that's not especially typical. He tends to present himself here as intellectualised to a fault, and very dispassionate.
Anyway, it's just more "grist for the mill", as one of my professors was fond of saying -- indeed, on multiple levels.
[ 25. April 2014, 12:58: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
A few years ago, I sat next to Bingo at dinner.
I'd recently started a thread in Hell about him and, on quite few other occasions commented on what a complete dick he is.
Before he arrived (it was a ship meet) there was some tension about how it would all go. Given that I - and most of the others at the table - had said some quite rude things about him, we were a tad nervous.
He arrived a bit late. He sat next to me.
He had not the slightest clue about - or interest in - who anyone else at the table was. He didn't ask. I don't think he cared who anyone else was, to be frank.
He was perfectly polite. He talked endlessly about himself.
He told us how clever he is.
He is clever. No doubt about it.
But he's still a dick.
And he has no idea about how to relate to anyone.
God will sigh heavily when Bingo gets to the pearly gates. He'll find out what he's been doing wrong all this time.
Odd that. That's not the impression others that have met him have given.
My foregoing observations would be incomplete without affirming what Evensong says here. The one person I know who has had RL dealings with Ingo paints a picture of him that is different to what one would tend to infer from his SoF presentation. And yet...
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
He has a dark and mean side, does our beloved little mousey.
This is true. I also have a compassionate side that I can extend to people who are hurting through no fault of their own. Although perhaps nobody here has seen it, or remembers it.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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