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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: In Praise of IngoB!
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I cross-posted with this.
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
A few years ago, I sat next to Bingo at dinner.
I'd recently started a thread in Hell about him and, on quite few other occasions commented on what a complete dick he is.
Before he arrived (it was a ship meet) there was some tension about how it would all go. Given that I - and most of the others at the table - had said some quite rude things about him, we were a tad nervous.
He arrived a bit late. He sat next to me.
He had not the slightest clue about - or interest in - who anyone else at the table was. He didn't ask. I don't think he cared who anyone else was, to be frank.
He was perfectly polite. He talked endlessly about himself.
He told us how clever he is.
He is clever. No doubt about it.
But he's still a dick.
And he has no idea about how to relate to anyone.
FWIW, none of the previous 8 pages of posts particularly fazes me.
This one hurts.
Why?
Do you honestly not see the people on here as real people - only when you see them IRL?
You have spent 8 pages on here affirming how clever you are and how you enjoy sharpening your wits and arguments in the boxing ring of discussion by winning points.
You sit next to a Shippie IRL and he comes here and says you are no different IRL - but that hurts.
Again, why?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Anyway, I was responding to EM wishing she would "get it" like me, as should be obvious from me quoting that. As incomprehensible as that my appear to you, I was hence actually responding to the EM's suggestion that I had more (religiously relevant) talents than her. And my point was that there is no good reason for her to make such comparisons.
I also actually identified more with the one talent guy, except that unlike that fearful servant of the parable I believe that I have taken the master's advice to bring that talent to a bank.
It was, indeed, another of your wholly consoling posts and reminded me of what the Pope says in the recent exhortation, that God never tires of forgiving us - it is we who tire of going to him with the same old sins. I shall be thinking of you when I take the little I have to the bank this weekend.
NB: Autenrieth Road - you are very kind.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
Well, now, it's Friday in "Bright Week," which seems a good time to end my exercise in re-lurking.... Plus, Etymological Evangelical and Gamaliel appear to be back; which is a vibrant signal that things are returning to "normal" around here! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I've sat back and more-or-less silently watched this thread unfold (unravel?), which I know has irritated IngoB, who is telling himself (and me!) that I've gained nothing but a Pyrrhic victory (or something like that). But, honestly, I wasn't looking for a victory of any sort. I was just taking the description of "Hell" rather literally and using it as a place to "vent" about how irritating I find IngoB on a personal level.
His recent use of the boxing metaphor has been helpful.... Not being a boxer, and having no interest in boxing, I got pretty irritated at being used by IngoB as a punching bag -- as well as watching while he did the same to others. So, I "virtually" hauled IngoB to a place where I could -- "used-up old slut" that I am -- bash the side of his head with my purse, scratch his eyes, kick his shins, and knee his testicles. I found that rather satisfying.
Anyway, now that IngoB has made it utterly clear that he regards "Purgatory" as his very own personal boxing ring, where others go at their own risks, I will know how to deal with him. I'll ignore him. He can shadow box all he likes, while I will interact with those who do not regard "Purgatory" as a personal boxing ring full of people in need a good beatings.
Because, yes, Yorick, speaking only for myself, I am a big, huge baby! I'm a very sensitive 46-year-old man. I cry easily. I sniffle at dog food commercials! When I'm bullied, I tend to revert to feelings I had when I was cruelly bullied as a young kid. Stupidly, I often fail to avoid such situations, as I certainly did when I blundered into the "Purgatory" thread on universalism and essentially stuck a KICK ME sign on my back -- to which IngoB and his Anglo-Catholic cheerleader, Beeswax Altar, promptly responded.
Lesson learned!
Anyway, a couple of further things....
First....
Desert Daughter wrote: quote:
...I cannot help it, I just **have** to analyse the discourse going on in this thread...
You really should have tried harder to "help it"! Then you would have spared us all the big pile of steaming ox-dung you unloaded in your post!
As a member of a minority group that has endured real abuse, I found your attempt to identify IngoB as a member of a suffering minority utterly repulsive ... but also utterly unsurprising from someone who tosses around the "PC" attack-label against people who stand up against bigotry, as if disagreeing with IngoB is just as bad as shouting "kike" at a Jew.
Second....
I've noted various statements (many amounting to damning with faint praise) about IngoB being "intelligent," "smart," "clever," etc. It's that last word that got me really thinking: In Genesis 3:1, the snake is characterized with a Hebrew word, 'arum עָרוּם, which can be translated "clever." It strikes me that this is the right designation for IngoB. Like the snake, he is "more crafty than any other wild animal that the LORD God had made." Like the snake, he can out-smart people foolish enough to engage in conversation with him. But, is being "clever" like the snake in Eden really something to admire?
IngoB reminds me a lot of the type of student I sometimes end up with in one of my undergraduate classes -- the sharp, well-read student, who uses his knowledge, like a weapon, against other students in the class, and even against me. Such students typically "poison" the classroom environment. They intimidate other students who are just as smart, but who lack the confidence or the verbal agility to take them on. I've had personal conversations with such intimidated students, who have said things like this: "I'm just so afraid to speak, given how smart X is!" And I have to fight the urge to say: "Well, frankly, X isn't nearly as smart as he comes across. A lot of it is bluster." Of course, since I'm in a position of real authority, I can usually manage such a negative classroom presence, and reduce the damage that he/she can do. But, in checking this student, I almost always make an enemy, and I get "hit" in the written course evaluations that North American universities things of as a "good idea": I'll have, say, twenty evaluations that positively glow about the course, and then I'll have one in which the edenic snake will denounce me for my various flaws. Being think-skinned and fragile of ego, I always get angry when I read such evaluations -- and then I get some perspective, calm down, and begin to chuckle.
I've reached that point now with IngoB. Doubtless, quite smart, quite clever, well-educated. But not nearly as smart as he appears.
Um ... yes ... that sign on my back does read KICK ME HARD! Go ahead and see how many kicks it will take to make me cry.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Being think-skinned...
"thin-skinned" of course! ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
(And prone to odd typos in my writing!)
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Erroneous Monk, I am wholly glad that you found IngoB's post consoling. Really -- no secret sarcasm here.
IngoB, since you have said your post was meant for EM and not directed at anyone else to conclude anything from, and since you seem to be convinced that there was no room for another interpretation, and since I don't want to hammer at something that EM herself is content with, and since I don't want to enter a boxing match with you (an investigation seeking to understand each other better, sure, but I don't think you're interested in that), I'm not sure there's anything to be gained by my trying to explain the aspects of your post that led me to my initial conclusion.
If you would still like to understand what led to my thinking, let me know and I will try to explain.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Maybe others were being polite.
Shippies? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Unlikely.
In real life, yes. Our RL selves are gentler, more polite and more nuanced than we are on-line. Mostly.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
IngoB wrote:
Yes, what this world really needs is a psychological analysis that pins the blame to the person at the bottom of the dog pile. A truly enabling effort that will be appreciated by dogs everywhere. Of course, if we strip away the sophistication, then "he asked for it, didn't he?" is not exactly the most original justification ever. But the packaging makes all the difference, doesn't it? And that's why we need professionals on the job.
Well, people who are being victimized are often reluctant to see their part in it; it's not about blame though, as that would just repeat the bullying. My later example of women who have boy-friends who beat them up is the classic case - how do you stop it? One way is to show the woman that she is choosing the man; and there are other choices, and other men.
I don't see you in this way in any case, as I stated above. I was interested in Evensong's point about having a rest from hell!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
I've reached that point now with IngoB. Doubtless, quite smart, quite clever, well-educated. But not nearly as smart as he appears.
That's lovely for you. I hope he's suitably chastened by your analysis, sensitive soul that he undoubtedly is, and gets back to crying himself to sleep and wetting the bed.
On a more positive note, hopefully your recent withdrawal from engagement in your thread has enabled you to view the exchanges on this board with the same level of detachment that I suspect Ingo does. Really.
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Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Do I set out in Purgatory to hurt people? No, I do not. (Or at least only rarely. I am actually human and occasionally I do attack people under the guise of arguing fact. But that indeed is evil and shameful, and I do not defend such attacks of mine.) However I do present views that I know will be very contentious, and highly challenging to many present. Hence I know that there will be hurt and anger. Yet I think this is justifiable, given that it should be obvious that those things are on the cards in Purgatory.
In passing, can I say that back in the dim and distant past when I was a Purgatory host I never had to tell IngoB off for breaching the rules of Purgatory and I cannot recollect a single instance subsequently when a Purgatory host has had to tell IngoB off. Granted, not everyone who posts in Purgatory wants to win as badly as IngoB does and, sure, if people did we might reach 'Peak IngoB' and Purgatory might suffer thereby. But, given that he plays within the rules and that Purgatory would, undoubtedly be rather duller without his presence I think the whole "Oh Noes, IngoB does not appreciate the ethos of Purgatory" bit is rather overdone. Unless an Admin or Purgatory Host says otherwise IngoB is an entirely legitimate part of the Purgatorial ecosystem. You can disagree with his mission to vindicate the history and doctrine of the Catholic Church prior to the accession of Pope Francis or think that he is more concerned with winning arguments than with winning hearts and minds or whatever. But, galling as it is, IngoB is quite entitled to turn up in Purgatory and to start shredding your argument and to demonstrate that, by his lights, you are entirely wrong and a heretic to boot. People who don't like that sort of thing can always post in All Saints, Heaven or the Circus.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
But, honestly, I wasn't looking for a victory of any sort.
Because, yes, Yorick, speaking only for myself, I am a big, huge baby!
As a member of a minority group that has endured real abuse, I found your attempt to identify IngoB as a member of a suffering minority utterly repulsive ...
What can you say after that?
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
But, galling as it is, IngoB is quite entitled to turn up in Purgatory and to start shredding your argument and to demonstrate that, by his lights, you are entirely wrong and a heretic to boot. People who don't like that sort of thing can always post in All Saints, Heaven or the Circus.
Again, I don't think anyone is actually disputing this. There's nothing (above "don't be a jerk" and "don't crusade") in the 10Cs that prevent him from continuing his preferred mode of interaction.
But being a dick about it is different. He doesn't have to be a dick, and it seems several Purg regulars (me included) would like him to be less of a dick. Having asked, and been rebuffed, then we'll tailor our responses accordingly. Meh. It's just someone else to scroll past - for an online messageboard, there are blessedly few here I do that to.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
But, honestly, I wasn't looking for a victory of any sort.
Because, yes, Yorick, speaking only for myself, I am a big, huge baby!
As a member of a minority group that has endured real abuse, I found your attempt to identify IngoB as a member of a suffering minority utterly repulsive ...
What can you say after that?
One can hope that you, in particular, won't say anything.... Something about opening your mouth and removing all doubt....
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
But, galling as it is, IngoB is quite entitled to turn up in Purgatory and to start shredding your argument and to demonstrate that, by his lights, you are entirely wrong and a heretic to boot. People who don't like that sort of thing can always post in All Saints, Heaven or the Circus.
Doc Tor has it right, I think. I don't recall anyone suggesting IngoB is in breach of the Purgatory rules, merely that his approach to posting and his overall intentions are unsavory. People who don't like to have their arguments shredded or to be called a heretic don't need to avoid Purgatory; we just need to avoid engaging with IngoB.
So, and I doubt IngoB will be grieving at this, like Doc Tor I think I'll be scrolling past IngoB's posts without much of a glance from now on.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
That's lovely for you. I hope he's suitably chastened by your analysis, sensitive soul that he undoubtedly is, and gets back to crying himself to sleep and wetting the bed.
You think that's how I imagine IngoB? How strange! I doubt that IngoB has ever cried himself to sleep or wet his bed. Ever!
quote:
On a more positive note, hopefully your recent withdrawal from engagement in your thread has enabled you to view the exchanges on this board with the same level of detachment that I suspect Ingo does. Really.
▲
One may hope. But I would recommend against holding one's breath! I find it very difficult to be "detached" about matters of the heart and soul. Add to that my thin-skin and sensitive nature ... and I'm a disaster constantly happening.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Why? Do you honestly not see the people on here as real people - only when you see them IRL?
Obviously there are real people behind the avatars. But our interactions here are at most a shadow of reality. We are disembodied voices that have a naming label slapped onto them. I perhaps narrate my reality to you, and you perhaps narrate yours to me. But we share those realities like we share the imaginary reality of a character in a book. Maybe it is a gripping story, but we do not really play in it together.
Furthermore, some boards on SoF regulate our interactions quite tightly, and I almost exclusively participate in those parts. I'm not particularly concerned about all this bitching about me in Purgatory, because I know Purgatory. It is a place with a specific shape, and I know well how I fit into that shape. If people complain about that, then they are objectively wrong. Or at least as objectively so as these things ever can be. So, basically, whatever...
But that is not true for all parts of SoF, and it certainly is not true for life. You are not living under a rule there, not in a fixed shape, or at least under so many complex rules and shapes that all overlap and interact so complicatedly that it is usually hopeless trying to figure out your "objective" place in the world. Perhaps if you are a nun in a cloister, that works to a degree. But for most of us, not. So I'm a lot more careful about dealing with that. And in practice, a lot of things in the world get resolved by negotiation and diplomacy.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
You have spent 8 pages on here affirming how clever you are and how you enjoy sharpening your wits and arguments in the boxing ring of discussion by winning points. You sit next to a Shippie IRL and he comes here and says you are no different IRL - but that hurts. Again, why?
LatA is a she (I hope, I'm sort of reeling from memory reorganisation at the moment...). Perhaps I'm just sad to see my younger self (by over a decade, unless I'm mistaken) getting trashed so mercilessly. And what can I say in my defence? Unlike interactions here, which one can point to and re-read, these are just memories. And frankly, I do not recall much about how that evening went. If I have the right meeting in mind, then this was in some relatively fancy restaurant with Zappa, Foaming Draught, LatA and probably one more person present (sorry if I forgot you, this is long ago...). If I really talked a lot about myself, as LatA claims, then most likely I was very nervous and/or there were plenty of uncomfortable silences. I tend to blab about my adventures when I feel under pressure to make conversation. Anyway, this certainly didn't stick in my mind as some kind of social disaster. Also it didn't register as a highlight of my life, obviously. But it was firmly in the "nice to have been there" category, as are all Shipmeets that I have attended. Now it got kicked into the gutter. Apparently I did not see past the polite facade of at least one person, and made some kind of fool of myself there. That hurts. Even though I think I am quite a bit different these days, at least certainly much more experienced, that hurts for the guy I was then.
What I can say though with confidence, and in spite of apparently shot memory, is that I wasn't in boxing ring mode there. I'm not sure what makes LatA say that I told them how clever I am. But it certainly was not in terms of some Purgatory-style heated debate over something. I don't do that at Shipmeets...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Well, now, it's Friday in "Bright Week," which seems a good time to end my exercise in re-lurking....
Really? Why?
Calling someone to Hell right before a self-imposed two-week exile is a punk-ass, yellow-bellied, jerkish move. Coming back after scarcely contributing to the thread in the interim ... well, you'll find out what that is now, I suppose.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Be fair, RuthW; the thread has rattled along merrily in Dubious Thomas's absence!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Obviously there are real people behind the avatars. But our interactions here are at most a shadow of reality. We are disembodied voices that have a naming label slapped onto them. I perhaps narrate my reality to you, and you perhaps narrate yours to me. But we share those realities like we share the imaginary reality of a character in a book. Maybe it is a gripping story, but we do not really play in it together.
That's an interesting and perhaps in some ways accurate point. But I think it's a mistake to think of 'real' people as one thing, and SOF interactions as something much less real. They may not always be sincere, or genuine, or kind - or have integrity. But in terms of our interactions with one another - unless we know otherwise - they represent what we know of each other, and are the measurement by which we can demonstrate respect and understanding for each other, even when in disagreement.
I think it is wrong to assume that we can be cold, dismissive or potentially hurtful simply because someone is communicating to us electronically; thinking that to respond that way on a forum has no 'real' effect on the person.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What I can say though with confidence, and in spite of apparently shot memory, is that I wasn't in boxing ring mode there. I'm not sure what makes LatA say that I told them how clever I am. But it certainly was not in terms of some Purgatory-style heated debate over something. I don't do that at Shipmeets...
First off-- yes, I chimed in to say, LATA is a "she" , but you beat me to it.
Second-- the fact that her comment bothered you actualy softens my heart toward you--it is evidence that you give a damn. Maybe all we need-- we being the people who have engaged with you for several years, and who might be more interested in figuring out a way to connect with you than you might think-- just need more evidence that you give a damn. The fact that you pause to consider LATA's feedback makes up for volumes of rhetorical bluster, to me.
As for Dubious Thomas,
Ruth has you nailed, my friend. Stop patting yourself on the back for the outcome of a discussion you barely participated in.
[ 25. April 2014, 16:49: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
I've noted various statements (many amounting to damning with faint praise) about IngoB being "intelligent," "smart," "clever," etc. It's that last word that got me really thinking: In Genesis 3:1, the snake is characterized with a Hebrew word, 'arum עָרוּם, which can be translated "clever." It strikes me that this is the right designation for IngoB. Like the snake, he is "more crafty than any other wild animal that the LORD God had made." Like the snake, he can out-smart people foolish enough to engage in conversation with him. But, is being "clever" like the snake in Eden really something to admire?
Hey, cool, I got a free upgrade to Satanic class. Do the succubi still serve free crack cockaine there?
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Of course, since I'm in a position of real authority, I can usually manage such a negative classroom presence, and reduce the damage that he/she can do.
I'm sure that you excel at churning our regulation size poppies.
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
You think that's how I imagine IngoB? How strange! I doubt that IngoB has ever cried himself to sleep or wet his bed. Ever!
Oh, the irony of it all...
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
If you would still like to understand what led to my thinking, let me know and I will try to explain.
Yes, I would be interested. I leave it up to you whether you want to do this here or by PM. (FWIW, I considered the matter between us settled satisfactorily until Porridge chimed in. I had to use what you wrote in responding to him, simply because he had not said anything specific but that he agreed with you.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Why? Do you honestly not see the people on here as real people - only when you see them IRL?
Obviously there are real people behind the avatars. But our interactions here are at most a shadow of reality. We are disembodied voices that have a naming label slapped onto them. I perhaps narrate my reality to you, and you perhaps narrate yours to me. But we share those realities like we share the imaginary reality of a character in a book. Maybe it is a gripping story, but we do not really play in it together.
Yes we DO!
Nobody will ever know your reality, or mine. Not even my husband, who I have lived with for thirty eight years, knows my reality.
But we are all still people, not part of a game or a book.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
The last couple million years of human development have been highlighted by specific evolutionary focus on communication-- the speech centers of the brain and the vocal apparatus. Do you know that we are the one species on earth that can die by choking? Has to do with the way our throats are designed. They are designed with speech as a high priority.
If you believe in God, you have to wonder what he is up to with that.obviously he is not content with us remaining in our separate realities. As Boogie says, it seems to be important that we play in it together.
[ 25. April 2014, 17:03: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
( should have said, the one species on earth that has a significant danger of dying by choking.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
If I was IngoB, I think I would be secretly chuffed at all this attention. But maybe hurt also. Them's the breaks, I guess. (Boxing, geddit?).
[ 25. April 2014, 17:10: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Totally.
I have no desire to see Bingo hurt, butI have a feeling that Bingo is far more hurt by some folk's inability to "get him" than he lets on, and this provokes him to lash out with unhelpful rhetorical language. The problem with that is that it is a gerbil wheel-- nobody will desire to"get you"'when they are being aggressively pushed away.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Calling someone to Hell right before a self-imposed two-week exile is a punk-ass, yellow-bellied, jerkish move. Coming back after scarcely contributing to the thread in the interim ... well, you'll find out what that is now, I suppose.
Well, I'm a punk-ass, yellow-bellied, jerk. I do as I am. So, feel free to have at it.
KICK ME!
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
If you would still like to understand what led to my thinking, let me know and I will try to explain.
Yes, I would be interested. I leave it up to you whether you want to do this here or by PM. (FWIW, I considered the matter between us settled satisfactorily until Porridge chimed in. I had to use what you wrote in responding to him, simply because he had not said anything specific but that he agreed with you.)
OK. I'll do it here rather than in PM. (I'm happy to PM, but I figure since I brought it up in public I should be willing to discuss it in public.) It might not be until Sunday or Monday that I can get to it. I'm supposed to be finishing up on a project before going to a conference.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
As for Dubious Thomas,
Ruth has you nailed, my friend. Stop patting yourself on the back for the outcome of a discussion you barely participated in.
I wasn't patting myself on the back for it at all. If it came across that way, then the fault is entirely mine -- failure to communicate my intentions effectively.
The "satisfaction" I felt came entirely from the "vent" I gave in the OP.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Of course, since I'm in a position of real authority, I can usually manage such a negative classroom presence, and reduce the damage that he/she can do.
I'm sure that you excel at churning our regulation size poppies.
Huh?
Once again, you're 'arum mimmeni ("more clever than I").... That "jab" went right over my little old head.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
Really? I was just about to send it to the Quotes file.
▲
(cross-post - soz)
[ 25. April 2014, 18:23: Message edited by: passer ]
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Cutting down the tall poppy.
Thanks! The linked definition says the idiom is used in Canada. I'm from Canada, but have never once heard it. Perhaps that's because my Canadian family and friends are mere ordinary height poppies, who don't use such sophisticated language. Anyway, it's nice to learn something new, especially since the idiom has its origins in classical Greek literature. Now, as is my wont, I'll go on using the expression to excess.
And, now understanding the jab, I can have a nice chuckle at the fact that IngoB imagines me chopping down people "of genuine merit ... because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers." Uh-huh. Right. Sure.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
LatA is a she (I hope, I'm sort of reeling from memory reorganisation at the moment...). Perhaps I'm just sad to see my younger self (by over a decade, unless I'm mistaken) getting trashed so mercilessly. And what can I say in my defence? Unlike interactions here, which one can point to and re-read, these are just memories. And frankly, I do not recall much about how that evening went. If I have the right meeting in mind, then this was in some relatively fancy restaurant with Zappa, Foaming Draught, LatA and probably one more person present (sorry if I forgot you, this is long ago...). If I really talked a lot about myself, as LatA claims, then most likely I was very nervous and/or there were plenty of uncomfortable silences. I tend to blab about my adventures when I feel under pressure to make conversation. Anyway, this certainly didn't stick in my mind as some kind of social disaster. Also it didn't register as a highlight of my life, obviously. But it was firmly in the "nice to have been there" category, as are all Shipmeets that I have attended. Now it got kicked into the gutter. Apparently I did not see past the polite facade of at least one person, and made some kind of fool of myself there. That hurts. Even though I think I am quite a bit different these days, at least certainly much more experienced, that hurts for the guy I was then.
What I can say though with confidence, and in spite of apparently shot memory, is that I wasn't in boxing ring mode there. I'm not sure what makes LatA say that I told them how clever I am. But it certainly was not in terms of some Purgatory-style heated debate over something. I don't do that at Shipmeets...
It was a bit mean of me and I apologise for hurting your feelings. To be honest, I am a bit surprised that you have the capacity to be hurt (not because I don't recognise you as human, but just that on these boards, you don't come across that way).
It was 10 years ago, I'd say. But neither Foaming Draught or Zappa were there (they are Queenslanders - maybe you met them at a Shipmeet up there one time? You would remember FD if you did. He's possibly the nicest bloke in Australia). The other attendees have long since jumped ship, as fas as I know.
I was genuinely surprised when you came in. I was expecting a towering, hulking great man with a booming voice, which of course is not you at all. That really surprised me.
And I was a bit rough in saying that you told us all how clever you are. You did bang on about yourself a lot, but it was my own assessment that you are very smart. That goes without saying. You just didn't seem interested in finding out anything about anyone else. That's what i meant.
Thinking back, you were doubtless nervous. That is hardly a surprise, meeting a bunch of whackos you argue with all the time on a website. Maybe that's why you did all the talking. About you. You didn't make a fool of yourself. No one said afterwards, "Well, he's a twat" (at least, not that I heard). In fact, I think we almost fell of our chairs that you were human. Because you don't really present that way on the boards. You come across a bit like a better looking version of George Pell (yes, I know George is technically a human, but you know what I mean).
So, apologies for hurting your feelings.
Just stop being so bloody long-winded and dogmatic. And stop always having to take apart every damn thing everyone else says and explain why they are wrong. It's fricking irritating.
{Codefix. —A}
[ 25. April 2014, 21:16: Message edited by: Ariston ]
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
But in terms of our interactions with one another - unless we know otherwise - they represent what we know of each other, and are the measurement by which we can demonstrate respect and understanding for each other, even when in disagreement.
A nice story is still just a story. Again, I do not deny the reality of the people behind the story. But we are building a construct here, we weave a Matrix. It is false to say that this is the same for reality. I consider embodiment to be fundamental, and not just in a theoretical sense. I ultimately cannot be with your mind, but I can be with you. A point best made by for example giving a massage. I can describe to you what my hands can do. But the knots in your shoulder will not dissolve like butter in the sun from my words... My actual fingers must seek and circle and dig in and smooth out. I can make you imagine this, perhaps make you long for this, but I cannot speak it into being. Only one person can do that, and I am not Him. I am me, I am my hands. Lovely hands. Sensitive but powerful hands. Words have their own magic, and I sure can spin them. But there is a glass in my hand, and a whisky on my tongue and if you were here you could have one, too. But you are not here. And nothing I can say can change that. Ever.
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I think it is wrong to assume that we can be cold, dismissive or potentially hurtful simply because someone is communicating to us electronically; thinking that to respond that way on a forum has no 'real' effect on the person.
But my argument has never been "you are just a virtual entity, therefore I can hurt you at will". That's absurd. I believe that a certain way of discussing is a good way. And I believe that Purgatory is a good place for doing that concerning religion. Maybe it's also a good place for other things, but it is a good place for this. And when people say that they are hurt by that, then I think they are not getting the point of Purgatory. Or at least, they are not getting a valid point of Purgatory, one which I happens to be interested in. That's really all there is to that.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
A nice story is still just a story. Again, I do not deny the reality of the people behind the story. But we are building a construct here, we weave a Matrix. It is false to say that this is the same for reality. I consider embodiment to be fundamental, and not just in a theoretical sense. I ultimately cannot be with your mind, but I can be with you. A point best made by for example giving a massage. I can describe to you what my hands can do. But the knots in your shoulder will not dissolve like butter in the sun from my words... My actual fingers must seek and circle and dig in and smooth out. I can make you imagine this, perhaps make you long for this, but I cannot speak it into being. Only one person can do that, and I am not Him. I am me, I am my hands. Lovely hands. Sensitive but powerful hands. Words have their own magic, and I sure can spin them. But there is a glass in my hand, and a whisky on my tongue and if you were here you could have one, too. But you are not here. And nothing I can say can change that. Ever.
Just checking in-- are you in any way aware how thoughtful and sensitive and moving and damn beautiful the above is? I just want to read that paragraph over and over again.
In a way I totally agree with what you wrote. Can't argue with it. At the same time, God had plonked us Shipmates into one of the most amazing times in history--a person can reach out and contact another human being virtually anywhere on earth, any time . It is an enormous potential, and an enormous responsibility. What does God want us to do with it?
And even though we can't connect in a tangible way, we still strain to connect in a textual way? Why? It it just pathology, or is it a Godly urge?
That is why mere verbal pugilism doesn't cut it for me--it's too easy. I believe we are evolving towards something much bigger than the chimps squabbling at the bottom of the monolith in 2001. And given the way things are developing-- evolutionarily and historically-- I believe the way we connect with each other by exchanging our thoughts an experiences is a big part of that evolution.
Dude, you just connected. When you do, it is a powerful thing.
[ 25. April 2014, 22:53: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
That was a very generous post LATA . No doubt IngoB is in some ways a very clever person - he is good at numbers and scientific concepts. I don't think he is when it comes to dealing with people. To this must be added the impudence of the bawd stuff, and to top it off, he appears to have been instructed for his reception into the RC Church by someone who had in turn imbibed the strange theology I associate with the Catholic Church in Ireland and those descending from that school: a failure to accept that God is love, but rather that His message can be taught by arid legalisms.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
That is why mere verbal pugilism doesn't cut it for me--it's too easy. I believe we are evolving towards something much bigger than the chimps squabbling at the bottom of the monolith in 2001. And given the way things are developing-- evolutionarily and historically-- I believe the way we connect with each other by exchanging our thoughts an experiences is a big part of that evolution.
I agree, and that is why I've stopped trying to debate with IngoB. He avoids the substance of what is being put and simply responds in terms of pure rhetoric - the subject matters not, the grinding of the other into the ground is what debate is all about. That's OK at school, but not in real life.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
So frustrated right now. Bingo just wrote something that brought tears to my eyes--in a good way, for a change--and I fully expect he will just write it off as a neurotic blip of some sort.
Gahhh! That's the shit I live for!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... the grinding of the other into the ground is what debate is all about. That's OK at school, but not in real life.
As I pointed out in my overly-long post above, I don't regard that kind of behavior as "OK at school," which I experience very much as part of "real life." (For what it's worth.)
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I relate to all sorts of people in RL who don't massage me. I often work with consultants whom I usually never meet at all, who contribute greatly to my ability to help my computer users. I am moved by reading the works of many people who are long dead. And I don't like whiskey.
No tears in my eyes.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I don't understand the denigration of words. Jesus is the Word of God. God created the world using words. And when people get together at say something like a shipmeet, what do they do? They talk. The words we weave here are not unreality.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
No tears in my eyes.
Suit yourself.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't understand the denigration of words. Jesus is the Word of God. God created the world using words. And when people get together at say something like a shipmeet, what do they do? They talk. The words we weave here are not unreality.
I heartily agree.
James 3:1-10 strikes me as relevant.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
I need to stay away from this website. It is bad for me.
In the space of a few hours, I've hurt Ingo's feelings and made Kelly cry (indirectly).
Away from these boards, I can go a year without doing either to anyone.
So I might bugger off again and return to being a relatively nice person.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... the grinding of the other into the ground is what debate is all about. That's OK at school, but not in real life.
As I pointed out in my overly-long post above, I don't regard that kind of behavior as "OK at school," which I experience very much as part of "real life." (For what it's worth.)
I apologise - I meant rhetoric school.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... the grinding of the other into the ground is what debate is all about. That's OK at school, but not in real life.
As I pointed out in my overly-long post above, I don't regard that kind of behavior as "OK at school," which I experience very much as part of "real life." (For what it's worth.)
I apologise - I meant rhetoric school.
No problem! I clearly misunderstood what you were referring to by "school" -- my mind was fixed on my own context, where I really hate it when a student sets out to demolish another in an argument. You were referring to something different.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I need to stay away from this website. It is bad for me.
In the space of a few hours, I've hurt Ingo's feelings and made Kelly cry (indirectly).
Away from these boards, I can go a year without doing either to anyone.
So I might bugger off again and return to being a relatively nice person.
Fear not. Thou hast redeemed thyself.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
So I might bugger off again and return to being a relatively nice person.
That thought's crossed my mind, too!
And I'm "with you" on "relatively nice": I'm hardly the nicest person in "real life" -- but I do think I tend to be nicer than I am around here.
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I need to stay away from this website. It is bad for me.
In the space of a few hours, I've hurt Ingo's feelings and made Kelly cry (indirectly).
Oh for heaven's sake, I said they were happy tears! Yeesh!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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