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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Thank you Desert Daughter
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Doesn't transvestite and crossdresser mean the same thing? If you can tell us a significant difference between the two (except that one is from Latin and the other English), pray tell us.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
They mean the same thing, transvestite is just considered outdated at best and pejorative at worst. 'Person who cross-dresses' is the most polite term - but the best option is just to ask someone what they prefer. Conchita is not a person who cross-dresses anyway because gender performance is different to wearing the clothes of a different gender day-to-day.
Just because something means the same as another term doesn't mean you should use it - darkie means the same as black person, still doesn't mean you should use the former.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
They mean the same thing, transvestite is just considered outdated at best and pejorative at worst. 'Person who cross-dresses' is the most polite term - but the best option is just to ask someone what they prefer. Conchita is not a person who cross-dresses anyway because gender performance is different to wearing the clothes of a different gender day-to-day.
Just because something means the same as another term doesn't mean you should use it - darkie means the same as black person, still doesn't mean you should use the former.
Um, not quite. Whilst transvestite may have become pejorative, darkie has always been.
Another key difference is some people happily call themselves transvestites still. Fairly sure you will not find this to be the case with darkie.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
They mean the same thing, transvestite is just considered outdated at best and pejorative at worst.
Someone should tell Eddie Izzard, then, yes?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
They mean the same thing, transvestite is just considered outdated at best and pejorative at worst.
By whom is it so considered please? It is a standard term here AFAIK.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Maybe we should check in regionally-- if anything, The way it is used around here is the exact opposite of what Jade says-- people talk about "cross dressing" when they are belittling the act (or don't know much about it), and call people "transvestites" when they are trying to be proper.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
2ii is worth fuck all these days. Most graduate recruiters won't look at anything less than a 2i IME.
No-one gets a third any more, as long as they actually do all the coursework and sit the finals.
'These days', yet.
In the 1970s, things were different.
So that explains why people my age can't get real jobs while deadwood hired in the '70's and 80's with half our qualifications get paid to sit on their thumbs all day playing on facebook and eBay.
No, I don't hate my boss. Why do you ask?
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe we should check in regionally-- if anything, The way it is used around here is the exact opposite of what Jade says-- people talk about "cross dressing" when they are belittling the act (or don't know much about it), and call people "transvestites" when they are trying to be proper.
I find it really confusing. I would never set out to use a racist term, but when my sister-in-law was visiting from America I inadvertently used a term (that I had heard on National Radio here, which is government funded so usually a reliale source) which she thought was racist so she hit the roof, after that I just shut up. The thing is that I don't read a lot of American books, watch little TV and seldom go to movies so I am just not up to date with what is acceptable in that area.
I think there are probably other people like me who don't realise they may be using an offensive term. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) .
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
So I cant describe my first date with a cross dresser, in a Ford Transit van, listening to Culture Club on a transistor radios as : Bumping uglies with a trannie, in a trannie in time to the trannie tunes on the trannie. Damn, oh for simpler times.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
So I cant describe my first date with a cross dresser, in a Ford Transit van, listening to Culture Club on a transistor radios as : Bumping uglies with a trannie, in a trannie in time to the trannie tunes on the trannie. Damn, oh for simpler times.
Were you going to Bangor?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Or maybe Balls Cross?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
They mean the same thing, transvestite is just considered outdated at best and pejorative at worst.
Someone should tell Eddie Izzard, then, yes?
And Frank'n'Furter.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe we should check in regionally-- if anything, The way it is used around here is the exact opposite of what Jade says-- people talk about "cross dressing" when they are belittling the act (or don't know much about it), and call people "transvestites" when they are trying to be proper.
I'd have thought it would be the other way round.
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
So I cant describe my first date with a cross dresser, in a Ford Transit van, listening to Culture Club on a transistor radios as : Bumping uglies with a trannie, in a trannie in time to the trannie tunes on the trannie. Damn, oh for simpler times.
Were you going to Bangor?
More likely Tranmere.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Midweek on Radio 4 this morning had Libby Purves describe cabaret artist Le Gateau Chocolat as a 'cross-dresser'
{You're welcome for the codefix. Just sayin'.
—Ariston, Hellhost}
[ 14. May 2014, 15:57: Message edited by: Ariston ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Midweek on Radio 4 this morning had Libby Purves describe cabaret artist Le Gateau Chocolat as a 'cross-dresser'
i) that was Libby Purves
ii) that was BBC Radio 4
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe we should check in regionally-- if anything, The way it is used around here is the exact opposite of what Jade says-- people talk about "cross dressing" when they are belittling the act (or don't know much about it), and call people "transvestites" when they are trying to be proper.
"Transvestite" often implies "Gets sexual kicks from it". This is because back in the DSM-III days, the disorder that's now known as Transvestic Fetishism was then referred to as Transvestism, and links the act of a man wearing women's clothes with sexual perversion. Since there are many many other reasons to cross-dress, some people object to the baggage the word transvestite carries.
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe we should check in regionally-- if anything, The way it is used around here is the exact opposite of what Jade says-- people talk about "cross dressing" when they are belittling the act (or don't know much about it), and call people "transvestites" when they are trying to be proper.
I find it really confusing. I would never set out to use a racist term, but when my sister-in-law was visiting from America I inadvertently used a term (that I had heard on National Radio here, which is government funded so usually a reliale source) which she thought was racist so she hit the roof, after that I just shut up. The thing is that I don't read a lot of American books, watch little TV and seldom go to movies so I am just not up to date with what is acceptable in that area.
I think there are probably other people like me who don't realise they may be using an offensive term. .
Huia
When I was living in Ireland I used the word 'gyp' which is common slang in North America. The Irish were appalled. I apologized. I wasn't aware of what a fraught subject it was or that it was considered a pejorative.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
some people object to the baggage the word transvestite carries.
And some people do not, so I think Kelly's point is valid in that usage is situational. Like the word Black in America. in the UK, it is a perfectly acceptable word, in America it is variable. Including the very weird use of African-American applied to non-Americans.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Transvestite was coined to refer to dressing in the clothing of another gender as a fetish - cross-dresser was coined in the 70s to indicate non-fetish wearing of clothing of another gender. From people who cross-dress that I know, cross-dressing is the preferred term and is the politest term to use - if some people prefer transvestite then they are obviously entitled to do so (just like some transgender people use 'transsexual') but it's up to them to say so, not for others to guess. Cross-dressing should be the default term, just like transgender is.
Also, t****y/t****ie is a deeply offensive slur within the trans* community. It's the equivalent of n****r.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Jade,
You tend to the pendantic for one community, please then do so for others. They are not equivilant.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Jade, you're stating things as facts that just plain aren't universal. My college friend who was trans called herself a trannie, she preferred that term to others. In fact, I think both my college trans friends/acquaintances used the term about themselves and encouraged others to do so, though I'm more sure about the one who told me to use it. It's not a word to use if you don't know that it would be preferred, but hatred of it is definitely not across the board.
You say you'd like people not to guess, so don't make broad based statements about what people should do when you're just guessing based on those you know, please.
[ 14. May 2014, 15:45: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Round these parts, 'cross-dresser' tends to be the pejorative, with 'transvestite' the more correct term. 'Tranny' can be pejorative or affectionate depending on context!
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Jade - there are multiple understandings of the word "fetish" - which one did you have in mind?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Jade - there are multiple understandings of the word "fetish" - which one did you have in mind?
Slightly 'fet'?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Jade, you're stating things as facts that just plain aren't universal.
What, Jade Constable acting as if her own views on what's acceptable and what isn't are equivalent to Holy Writ?
I'd be shocked if it wasn't for the fact that it happens all the fucking time. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Hang on a moment. Tunnel-vision is a common side effect of being involved in activism. I know this to my own detriment.
I believe her heart is in the right place, even if her view is slightly more constricted than she is aware.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Historically, Jade is correct. Transvestism was associated with those who dress in clothing of the opposite gender for sexual gratification or arousal. Cross-dressing as a term emerged to differentiate the serialization of it. (see Wikipedia).
Drag Queen, at least as I've always used it and heard it used, is more a performance piece. If you cross dress to perform, you're a drag queen. If you're a man who wears panties as a turn-on, you're a transvestite. If you dress as a member of the opposite gender for non-sexual, non-performance, you're a cross dresser.
Now, how that all relates to transgenderism... I have no clue.
In any case, DD needs to make an acquaintance with a rusty farm implement post haste.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Also, t****y/t****ie is a deeply offensive slur within the trans* community. It's the equivalent of n****r.
Except in Australia where it isn't
[ 14. May 2014, 17:56: Message edited by: ecumaniac ]
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Also, t****y/t****ie is a deeply offensive slur within the trans* community. It's the equivalent of n****r.
Ok, so now I'm confused.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Can someone remind me again why 'trans' has an asterisk after it here? (It's not because there's a footnote, I know that much.)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Also, t****y/t****ie is a deeply offensive slur within the trans* community. It's the equivalent of n****r.
Except in Australia where it isn't
Well, that's just the Aussies being contrary ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Not their fault. Hanging upside down does things to you.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Can someone remind me again why 'trans' has an asterisk after it here? (It's not because there's a footnote, I know that much.)
I assume the asterisk is acting as a wild card, so trans* can be expanded to transvestite, transgendered, transatlantic etc. etc.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
transatlantic
No need for vulgarity, JoannaP.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Round these parts, 'cross-dresser' tends to be the pejorative, with 'transvestite' the more correct term. 'Tranny' can be pejorative or affectionate depending on context!
Yep, yep, yep.
I think we need to also check in to note if we are folk who live in or by a huge, slamming gayopolis, because at least in San Francisco there is the whole issue of the gay community aggressively re-claiming every derogatory phrase thrown at them as a badge of honor. That's why I had to be schooled about being careful with phrases like "queer nation", because I had only heard them uttered with pride.
Nowadays I try whenever possible to keep my mouth shut until someone conversationally directs me to the right word. Keeping mouth shut can work wonders in situations like this.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Keeping mouth shut can work wonders in situations like this.
But ever so boring.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Who said I was put on this earth to be a walking vaudeville act?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Who said I was put on this earth to be a walking vaudeville act?
It's a fine ambition actually. A few of us are thinking of setting up as VaudeInc, or some name like that, so if you are interested we will put you on our books. No qualifications needed really, just fun, fun, fun, willingness to get it wrong, mostly we wear dresses, beards optional, large Charlie Chaplin boots are good, and so on. I know you'd love it.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Shit I manage comedy enough unintentionally without going to all that trouble.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Come on, babes; I'll wear the dress, you get the beard, let's fuck over these bigots who find a bloke in a dress disgusting or whatever. We are Decadent Morons, and proud.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
New sig or what! Fuck the bigots! Dresses are for everyone!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif) Finally, a parade for me...
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
And if you're a man who wears panties, because all of his are in the wash, you're just being bleeding practical.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Not their fault. Hanging upside down does things to you.
Indeed.
But seriously.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
These guys sell manly skirts.
[ 14. May 2014, 23:53: Message edited by: art dunce ]
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
These guys sell manly skirts.
But if you wear one, it will mark you as an out of fashion hipster faster than wearing plaid pants.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
No, that would be me, my soul patch/mustache combo, long, flowing locks, borrowed fixie, and pink, fluffy tutu.
Yes, there are pictures. Yes, there is a perfectly reasonable explanation. Yes, you probably want me to just leave it at that.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Hell with the perfectly reasonable explanation, we want to see the pictures!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
These guys sell manly skirts.
Excellent for improving the sperm count ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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