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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Olaf
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Heh...I've long given up expecting clergy to do their job.
from; here
Screw you.
Some people say to me "Pyx_e you are supposed to be, forgiving and kind, humble and generous, call yourself a Christian?, call yourself a priest?" Well I am not that sort of Christian.
I too am tired of your whining, your weak inability to deal with the minor trouble of your liturgical expectations and the cowardly way you transfer your frustrations with your pastor to every clergy person.
There are some crap clergy about, God knows I have my moments. There are some laity about who seem to be really struggling too.
There seems to be a type of laity who is always complaining, be it the music, the modern language, the liturgy, the colour of the curtains, the pews, the seats, the hymn choice, the cracked paving slab, the towels in the loo, the dust on the window sill, the joke in the sermon, the lack of joke in the sermon, the expectation that we may be disciples, the encouragement to join a bible study, the coffee ........... and every one of these comes to me.
And I am happy to hear everyone of them.
But do not make the mistake of thinking I give a toss. I know why we are here and I know how a complaining heart if just another way of avoiding God's love. Of just throwing a handful of shit in the air to ensure none of the fragrance of heaven is smelt.
The devil pricks up his ears when you complain, he rubs his smutty paws together and get ready to take a another brick out of the Kingdom wall while dripping a little more despair onto the complainers soul.
I too often laugh at complainers, it seems the only way to stay sane. I have no idea who you are but honestly you sound a little like someone who needs to be laughed at. If you kept complaining to me after a while I would stop hearing you and just put up the shutters, hear you out (whatever it was you were mumbling and withering about this time) and move on.
Here's an idea, instead of going to another church service which does not seem to be making any difference to you go and have a coffee and try and strike up a conversation with someone, you might be able to share your faith even. Or offer to pray for your pastor. Or heaven forbid, walk, drive or catch a bus to a nearby church and go to another Ascension day service to slap another layer of religion on your atrophied soul.
Stop Whinging and get on with "it" for (literally) heavens sake man get some gratitude in your life.
Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
Olaf's comment came out of left field and ultimately I was either too gutless or on this occasion too nonchalant to make the call - at any rate Pyx_e made it anyway. Maybe I'll steer away from Olaf specifically be cause he has apologised to me. But there are issues, and while I'm in cruisy space at the moment I'm not always ...
... like the time I'd come home from working with, consoling, trying to breathe hope into the life of the mother who had given birth to still born triplets, come home to an angry warden who asked why I was ten minutes late for a meeting about drains.
But that was long ago and far away. Nowadays clergy don't get asked to do that, because there is so much cynicism in society about Christianity, at least in my antipodean world, that civil celebrants just say a few words about stars and fluff in the sky while we stay at home and wonder whether it's really worth muttering words about a costly resurrection.
Instead I try to breathe hope into a moribund community of septa- and octo-genarians whose every meeting is about shrinking finances and growing expenses, try to mutter words about a risen ascended glorified Christ when most people I meet would prefer to talk about fluffy angels and down-looking stars ...
And if I dare to suggest that the music be just a wee tad faster so that the young people don't die before the first stanza of "The Church's One Foundation" is half finished then the choir threaten blue fucking murder because clearly I don't love them and am trivializing the effort they put in to every elongated breve that sends youth scurrying to the local Jesus of the Left Whoopy Doodah Church down the road ...
So I'm afraid occasionally my cynicism radar loses calibration and I get a little stung by observations that "I've long given up expecting clergy to do their job" because while, actually I quite like my job, I find it just a miniscule hard to please the obstreperous fixations of every passing opinionated participant who is so darned sure that all I do is scratch my pious bum from day to day.
[ 02. June 2014, 09:11: Message edited by: Zappa ]
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Wait for it......wait for it....... somebody will post soon enough that every day job is the same as an indicator that they can't listen, don't actually want to engage in what's being said, and they prefer pissing contests on the boards. It's just an observation I've made here.
I must confess - unless I'm just not reading the right threads - that laity 'bashing' (if it can even be called that) would appear to be done largely by laity. I could be very mistaken though. Clergy 'bashing' that I've seen on the ship can sometimes be particularly cruel, sometimes even verging on wanting to publicly shame someone in a public way among anonymous critics. Sometimes its that same old crippling moaning humans like to engage in.
God knows clergy are particularly adept at identifying which rug under another cleric to pull in order to instigate the catastrophic tumble. Laity are very adept at this game too, and that's the point. There is a vampiric character type who get their kicks from this kind of thing whether they be clergy or laity. It's a shame that such people need to post widely to hone their habit and garner a certain acceptability in their malaise. As Pyxe says, there is something rather 'devilish' in this type of activity, be it from clergy or lay, whose desires drive them to suck the life out of someone or something and won't stop until it, or they, are a smouldering wreck that they can stand over in self aggrandised triumph. And before anyone else says it; no, it isn't common only to the church. It is rife in our society and not just in churches that have become another product to consume, and if we don't feel we get what we pay for, we sling it out on capitalisms slag heap with all the other dross that we deem doesn't work for us anymore.
Black milk of daybreak we drink it at sundown
we drink it at noon in the morning we drink it at night
we drink and we drink it
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I am so glad Olaf posted on Sunday night. Had he posted on say, Friday pm, it could have influenced sermons, messages, talks and even homilies delivered all over the World on the following Sunday.
For the greater good, or at any rate the comfort of many laity (and clergy too in the only slightly longer term), Olaf posted on Sunday. And there is Hell to respond in. God truly works in mysterious ways.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Um, maybe I'm missing something, perhaps an irony, but why would it have influenced sermons the world over?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
No irony intended, we have members all over the World, and some 12% of the membership are ordained (IIRC - there was a survey years ago) and some of these might have been irritated, even angered, by Olaf's post in Eccles.
Had Olaf posted that while the clegy were composing sermons etc, then while the text might not have changed much, the delivery and tone could well have done. By next Sunday however, things should have seetled down a bit.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
It must be a mug's game being a priest.
I remember hearing some colleagues complaining about a priest who wouldn't give them the keys to the church on his day off. "Being a priest is a vocation", they said. Fuck taking any kind of break from work, so it seems.
In my old parish a priest left to another parish (after nine years), then died of a heart attack aged about 45. The next priest stayed for a few years, then left to another parish, and also had a heart attack (though survived). In this parish was an ultra-conservative and prickly choir master/organist and an ultra-conservative, stubborn but could be nice reader; there were other standard mutterings against things like new hymn books/family services from a few others, but largely they were well liked. I believe that the stress of being there had a contribution towards their heart attacks.
When I worked in a cathedral I met a lot of clergy and also saw types of laity, such as the High-Anglican woman who left her own parish as it went lowish, went from one high parishes to another, always falling out with people there. This falling out involved letters of complaint by her to the bishop. Maybe with her, but deffo with others I've seen women with father issues getting attached to priests, woe betide those priests.
Some people with psychological problems project all manner of stuff onto priests, so many hopes, fears, hurt and so much malice. You also occasionally have "youth friendly" older people who have big emotional arguments as to why we should be more emotional in services and not have eucharists and the such in order to get "the youth" in; these people of course have God on their sides.
You have many well-meaning people who want a better world, less racism, more peace, that kind of thing, who then see priests (here men are meant)/older men as being part of the whole system of oppression.
In my experience priests (with one notable exception; luckily he had very patient church wardens) are likely to be into social themes (to the left of the congregation), give good pastoral care and dedicate themselves for others. These same face bother from all sides.
Thank God I've not been called to be a priest, and I pray for those who are.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
There are lots of versions of The Perfect Pastor around.
Clearly we need to add:
"Always ready and able to lead a Eucharist for every feast of the church, whatever day of the week. At a time and location convenient to all members of the church. Still be able to fulfil all other duties despite taking time out for preparing these mid-week services".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Some people just enjoy complaining. Preferably from a comfortable position. Such as an armchair.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The summary: Taking care of people sucks a lot of the time. Taking care of constantly complaining people sucks more.
I've tried to train myself to respond to all complaints with, "Great insight! Why don't you fix it?"
For some reason the conversation usually ends right there.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Clergy are no different from other people / professions / callings: there are some brilliant clergy, there are some OK clergy, and there are some clergy who, frankly, may be doing more harm than good and are almost certainly in the wrong job.
This has been the case for generations: what has changed is that some of today's clergy (I'm talking CofE here) are far more likely to complain about their lot than in previous generations.
The other change is that for generations the laity have been used to (in their idea of best-case scenario) male clergy who could/ did devote all of their time and energy to the parish, regardless of how many hours they worked, frequently not having or taking a fixed day-off, and all of this supported by a wife who also did things for the parish. Of course, in a larger parish the PP might have the services of a curate but, by-and-large he was his own boss.
That was also dangerous, because as well as the many hard-working priests there always were some who did the absolute bare minimum: what has changed today is that many clergy are far less visible than heretofore but all the laity hears is how stressed they are and how hard they work.
Unfair? A little, but then I think a parish priest's reaction to being told of her churchwarden's wife's death should be other than "It's my day off, write me a note or leave a message on the parish line." And that, or the equivalent, happens more often than people want to believe.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I've tried to train myself to respond to all complaints with, "Great insight! Why don't you fix it?"
Except that Olaf's point was that he can't fix it. He's not a priest - he can't offer a Mass.
It seems clear to me from his postings that Olaf holds rather high church views - significantly higher than the average Lutheran pastor. For someone who leans towards the low church end of things, holding a communion service on a weekday that will be attended by three old ladies and Olaf is a waste of time. For Olaf, offering Mass on a major feast day is just about the most important part of the priest's job.
Isn't this the fundamental issue? It's a question of whether or not you see offering Mass on Ascension as being of the same order of importance as being on time to the weekly meeting of the drains subcommittee.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Or whether Olaf is in the correct church.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
That last bit on my post was not aimed specifically at Olaf's situation.
But if it were...
What is there to prevent Olaf, or anyone else, from beating the bushes to raise up enthusiasm about attending midweek services? I can't think of a single Lutheran pastor who would not be delighted to have to put on a non-Sunday service because there were a bunch of people eager and ready to attend one.
If the problem is non-attendance, any lay person who volunteers to take on that issue with enthusiasm and care will earn the grateful respect of their over-burdened* pastor.
* and no, this is not a statement of my position on whether Ascension Day services constitute overburdening. It's simply a description of the average pastor I know, who doesn't have enough hours in the day and is forced to cut corners he'd rather not cut. (Yes, I know a few hundred of them**)
** A few hundred pastors--but also a few hundred corners. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
[ 02. June 2014, 13:57: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by L'organist:
quote:
This has been the case for generations: what has changed is that some of today's clergy (I'm talking CofE here) are far more likely to complain about their lot than in previous generations.
Lol; where did you glean this nugget of wisdom from?
posted by LC,
quote:
For Olaf, offering Mass on a major feast day is just about the most important part of the priest's job.
I have a lot of sympathy with this, but I'm not sure that point was made particularly well. If he had said, '...the church (in general) seems to be suffering from ascension deficit disorder these days', then the conversation might have progressed somewhat differently, or maybe not at all, seeing this is a hell thread and all. But I do have a lot of sympathy with that. I also stare at Michaelmas every year and wonder to myself when such a major feast was suddenly downgraded, and it is about fluffy angels and stars looking down. I just don't blame a bunch of clergy for it though.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Stop Whinging and get on with "it" for (literally) heavens sake man get some gratitude in your life.
Pyx_e
Your rant rather reminds me of Bonhoeffer's words on Christian Community.
“God hates visionary dreaming; it makes the dreamer proud and pretentious.”
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by L'organist:
quote:
Unfair? A little, but then I think a parish priest's reaction to being told of her churchwarden's wife's death should be other than "It's my day off, write me a note or leave a message on the parish line." And that, or the equivalent, happens more often than people want to believe.
I know I need to be a little careful here so as not add further offence, but it's interesting that we would actually accept this in other professions, such as the coroner and a GP. Granted, we aren't necessarily told that they are on a day off or whatever, but we accept it nonetheless.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
IMHO that's because pastors are precisely in the business of caring for people. In my opinion and in that of a lot of other people, not everybody.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by L'organist:
quote:
Unfair? A little, but then I think a parish priest's reaction to being told of her churchwarden's wife's death should be other than "It's my day off, write me a note or leave a message on the parish line." And that, or the equivalent, happens more often than people want to believe.
I know I need to be a little careful here so as not add further offence, but it's interesting that we would actually accept this in other professions, such as the coroner and a GP. Granted, we aren't necessarily told that they are on a day off or whatever, but we accept it nonetheless.
Well, if you're one of the denominations which believes in ontological change at ordination, then a priest is always a priest even on his/her day off.
Answer - you answer the phone and offer support: after all, how often does something that bad happen? Admittedly everyone else doesn't have to but believers aren't everyone else - go the extra mile just this once.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I would have thought that being a GP is just as much a caring profession. I wasn't saying it to get a rise or start a flame/baiting war. I wouldn't expect that type of response from any cleric personally, but I know I would from a GP and that's what made me curious.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Clergy are no different from other people / professions / callings
Yes, yes they are. My parish priest's choice to live the life he does is a continuous witness of faith and love, whether he does it "well" or "badly" on Olaf's or your terms.
Thank God for him, for all priests, deacons, ministers of whatever kind, for seminarians too.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
Suppose it depends... if it's a case of burnout that makes that phone call the one that breaks the camel's back, then something's gone wrong long before that and that needs looking at.
If they're just refusing to go because "It's my day off and I'm not going to be interrupted" then I'd agree that's out of line.
My problem comes when anecdotes like that get thrown about and it stops being about "that priest/minister/vicar" to "the clergy" in general. I would suggest most of us are not[ like that.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
But if the clergy are "always available" then their phone will be constantly ringing with people wanting to talk about trivia which could easily wait till the next day.
What I tend to do is set the phone to answer on my days off, but listen to the call afterwards and phone back if necessary. Very often all that is needed is a short call to say, "I hear you" and offer assurance; I can then deal with things properly on the morrow. (Emails and texts however are more insidious).
Even Jesus did not always make himself available 24/7!!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
but it's interesting that we would actually accept this in other professions, such as the coroner and a GP. Granted, we aren't necessarily told that they are on a day off or whatever, but we accept it nonetheless.
My grandfather was a GP "back in the day", and would always get called out for seriously ill patients. The only time he wasn't on call was when he went away for a holiday, when there was a locum in his place.
GPs these days have on call arrangements, so if you are sick in off hours, you can see a doctor, even though your own personal doctor might be having a day off. The duty magistrate gets phone calls at 3 in the morning when the police need a warrant for something.
So while there is a tendency for no individual professional to be continuously on call these days, there is a recognition that continuous on-call coverage is necessary.
IME, that is what priests do, too - anywhere that has more than one priest will have the priests coordinate their days off so that there's always someone on call.
As Baptist Trainfan points out, there is a rather large difference between being called on your day off because someone is dying and being out having a picnic with your family when you are accosted by a parishioner wanting to talk about a new doormat for the church hall.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I understand Olaf's frustration. As we're in hell, I'm going to get this off my chest and condemn the system to hell forever. It's natural to react with complaints when frustrated due to powerlessness. From the lay 'side' it can seem as if some clergy don't see lay people as equals, but as inferiors, those to pull rank on and rule, those not to be allowed to get too big for their boots. At times, the humble foot-washing loving service of all doesn't even seem as if it's an aspiration, it may be reserved for obviously 'needy' people.
If power isn't shared so that lay people may participate fully in the church according to calling and ability, inevitably all functions fall upon the clergy so that they are run ragged, they won't ever please everyone, and the complaints will continue on both sides that the other doesn't do enough.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
A complaining heart is just another way of avoiding God's love. (typo fixed)
You won the thread in the OP. Well done!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
There is a rather large difference between being called on your day off because someone is dying and being out having a picnic with your family when you are accosted by a parishioner wanting to talk about a new doormat for the church hall.
Ah, but said Parishioner has JUST HEARD that "they" are going to buy a green doormat instead of a blue one and they have never heard of anything so ridiculous in ALL THEIR LIFE and they are just TOTALLY FED UP with all the changes that are going on the church which their family has attended for SIX GENERATIONS and they are going to resign their membership unless the Minister does something about it RIGHT NOW.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
And wouldn't it just take the wind out of their sails if the Minister said ' OK then you can have your blue doormat'.......!! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Clergy are no different from other people / professions / callings: there are some brilliant clergy, there are some OK clergy, and there are some clergy who, frankly, may be doing more harm than good and are almost certainly in the wrong job.
This has been the case for generations: what has changed is that some of today's clergy (I'm talking CofE here) are far more likely to complain about their lot than in previous generations.
I'm not that good at history but which King wanted rid of a "Troublesome priest"?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Stop Whinging and get on with "it" for (literally) heavens sake man get some gratitude in your life.
Honest to God, Pyx_e. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
This is something we all need to hear from time to time. I'm as guilty as anyone of bitching instead of being grateful.
On the other hand, I don't want to be too hard on Olaf. He is a high-church Protestant in a resolutely MOTR denomination. So the options are 1) adjust expectations, 2) move to another denomination/communion/jurisdiction, or 3) stay and try, possibly fruitlessly, to influence the way things are done.
Being in a place which is for me a good fit, I'm very thankful I don't face that situation.
Counterpoint, though : the essence of the priesthood is, it seems to me, the celebration of the Eucharist. This is the central act of Christian worship, and from it everything else flows. The top priority of a priest (in any church with a catholic conception of the priesthood) ought to be the celebration of the Holy Communion. Bounden duty and service, right?
Sadly, I've met too many priests who seem to feel that the liturgy is an unpleasant duty to be avoided when possible and to be dispensed with as quickly as possible when it can't be avoided. These are the people who, when asked why the became priests, say "Because I want to help people." Fucking hell, Jack, if you want to help people become a social worker. The job of a priest is to bring people closer to Jesus.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
My Other Half was once present at a PCC meeting featuring a long argument over one of the most important issues facing the Church today.
That's right: whether to have a real or an artificial Christmas tree as part of the Christmas decorations (the battle over whether to have a Christmas tree at all was fought by previous generations). Each side had a passionate advocate: by the end of the debate, each had convinced the other to change their mind, leaving the PCC exactly where it was before the argument started. I think in the end the vicar's suggestion of going with the cheapest option was adopted.
(posted in reply to Stephen)
[ 02. June 2014, 17:04: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
There is a rather large difference between being called on your day off because someone is dying and being out having a picnic with your family when you are accosted by a parishioner wanting to talk about a new doormat for the church hall.
Ah, but said Parishioner has JUST HEARD that "they" are going to buy a green doormat instead of a blue one and they have never heard of anything so ridiculous in ALL THEIR LIFE and they are just TOTALLY FED UP with all the changes that are going on the church which their family has attended for SIX GENERATIONS and they are going to resign their membership unless the Minister does something about it RIGHT NOW.
To which the most effective answer is, "Well, if you feel that strongly about it, go ahead." The problem I have seen in our parish in the last 20 years is forceful laity blackmailing the clergy in this sort of fashion and getting away with it because said clergy were terrified of losing anybody. Our current Vicar refuses to be blackmailed in this fashion and will invariably call the blackmailer's bluff. So, we have lost a few people, but we have also lost a lot of complainers - and not all have left.
I have remarked elsewhere that in any voluntary organisation, there is always a small core of individuals who will roll their sleeves up and get on with the work, and a much larger group of others who will stand around and complain, but not do a hand's turn themselves. I wonder why this is? ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
in any voluntary organisation, there is always a small core of individuals who will roll their sleeves up and get on with the work, and a much larger group of others who will stand around and complain, but not do a hand's turn themselves. I wonder why this is?
Because there is a much larger group who will say "Why did you do it that way?" than one who will say "Thanks for doing it that way."
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm not that good at history but which King wanted rid of a "Troublesome priest"?
Henry II.
(Apparently Archbishop Thomas Becket didn't hold an Ascension Day service at Canterbury Cathedral.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But if the clergy are "always available" then their phone will be constantly ringing with people wanting to talk about trivia which could easily wait till the next day.
What I tend to do is set the phone to answer on my days off, but listen to the call afterwards and phone back if necessary. Very often all that is needed is a short call to say, "I hear you" and offer assurance; I can then deal with things properly on the morrow. (Emails and texts however are more insidious).
Even Jesus did not always make himself available 24/7!!
Although the key phrase here is "if necessary". An awful lot of things don't require a response that day and it can wait until the next day.
And it is important to manage expectations - the congregation needs to know when the minister's day off is and that it shouldn't be abused.
Emails - I always have a church specific email address, quite distinct from my personal one. People in the church don't normally get my personal email address. And I set up my email program to filter work emails into a separate folder. So I can check personal emails on a day off and can also see if I have any work ones, but I don't have to read them. Because once you've read them, it is so hard to ignore them...
Txts are easy - just don't give the congregation your mobile phone number. Only trusted people (which includes the church administrator) get my mobile phone number. Giving this to all and sundry opens the door to madness.
On the whole, though, I no longer get bothered by lay accusations of laziness. Those who really understand never make those accusations. But what really gets my goat is when senior clergy start making general comments about "lazy clergy". In all my years in churches I don't think I have ever met a lazy minister. I have met plenty of ministers who are burned out. And plenty who have become discouraged by the way that they and their family have been treated by congregations or by the hierarchy. I have met plenty who work hard in ways that most people just don't see. But lazy clergy? Not a single one. Honestly.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
in any voluntary organisation, there is always a small core of individuals who will roll their sleeves up and get on with the work, and a much larger group of others who will stand around and complain, but not do a hand's turn themselves. I wonder why this is?
Because there is a much larger group who will say "Why did you do it that way?" than one who will say "Thanks for doing it that way."
This reminds me of a story a rector of ours told of painting the interior of her former mission church. She and a few hearty souls devoted a long day to doing the job to save on labor. When the congregation gathered the next Sunday she heard a boatload of complaints (from the non-painters) that they painted the walls Navajo white instead of eggshell white. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
She got so ticked off that she let the unappreciative whiners have it during the sermon and excommunicated the lot of them for the day."No bread and wine for you!!" ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Screw you..... But do not make the mistake of thinking I give a toss...
Pyx_e
Over the years you have moaned so much about the burden of being a priest. - usually with a side swipe at the laity. It's clear you give more than a toss. Plenty of professions, including mine, get piled on. Stop being so sensitive about yours. Some clergy are good, some are bad. I've even met some good estate agents but people still refer to them as assholes. Just deal with a bit of collective criticism.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
She got so ticked off that she let the unappreciative whiners have it during the sermon and excommunicated the lot of them for the day."No bread and wine for you!!"
I really don't know how to feel about that one. I definitely see the temptation...!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
... and it does remind me of that loosely translated quotation from Jesus:
quote:
Why do I even talk to you at all?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Screw you..... But do not make the mistake of thinking I give a toss...
Pyx_e
Over the years you have moaned so much about the burden of being a priest. - usually with a side swipe at the laity. It's clear you give more than a toss. Plenty of professions, including mine, get piled on. Stop being so sensitive about yours. Some clergy are good, some are bad. I've even met some good estate agents but people still refer to them as assholes. Just deal with a bit of collective criticism.
Is it time for my annual St Valentine already?
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Is it time for my annual St Valentine already?
Bi-annual surely? I barely give you a thought except when
I see a post defending the clergy or moaning about your lot.
Do you remember your post from October 2006 containing the line: "To lead in a Christian context is to be hated, reviled and mocked. Priests learn that one week after ordination."? (I've kept the quote because it is in a short thread of PMs I exchanged at the time with Erin).
When I challenged you back then you slunk off and never replied. You've done the same every time when challenged since. So a final time. Why are priests not to be criticised? What is it about a priest's life (hated, reviled, mocked) that's so different from other professional experiences?
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Spawn, for goshsakes. Why is it that I only ever see you around when you're having a go at someone?
I've got some Maalox here, if you need it.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Spawn, for goshsakes. Why is it that I only ever see you around when you're having a go at someone?
I've got some Maalox here, if you need it.
It's Hell and it's Py-xe. And I don't post very often. That's my excuse anyway.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
IDK, Spawn, I do suspect that clerics are a lightning rod for hatred more so than other professions even journalists and lawyers for all the jokes at their expense.
I served for six years in my denomination shepherding seminarians through to their first call. The first thing we'd do is put them through psychological tests for any red flags that might indicate that they would not be able to handle the role. Then we'd meet with them at least once a year to assess how well they were taking care of themselves physically and emotionally. We'd try to see if they were good at building support networks around themselves. We'd do all that because we know that they will be thrown into the chipper-shredder of church politics at some point. I do not believe that other professions typically require such measures. Other professions may well have adversarial features, but generally they are structured and compartmentalized. Unless the individual cleric is adamant at setting boundaries and the polity of the local church governance respects and supports those boundaries, church politics can become unrelenting and toxic.
Not that pastors are or should be expected to be saints. The priesthood of all believers has its share of fuck-ups. Ruling elders (as my denomination is wont to call them) are often called because they have the ego and narcissism necessary to lead, and, therefore, a disproportionately high percentage of any sect's fuck-ups are the leaders.
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I've tried to train myself to respond to all complaints with, "Great insight! Why don't you fix it?"
For some reason the conversation usually ends right there.
This week I have told three different meetings (including a PCC) that I never again want to hear the phrase 'someone should....', but that 'can I help with...', 'what can I do about....' or 'Do you need a hand with....' are always acceptable.
As it happens, we celebrated the heck out of Ascension day, with Messy Church in the afternoon and a sung evening eucharist (congregation 12) both on Thursday and an Ascension flavoured Easter 7 on Sunday. It was, as always, a privilege to celebrate with God's gathered people. The joy of this privilege is slightly marred by the small minority of God's people who need to complain about the absence of WW1 memorial poppyseed/the late arrival of their taxi/the altered layout of the pewsheet/whatever in the 10 minutes before the service. And if I am not available in church to complain to, are prepared to walk into the vestry to find me. Without knocking. I swear that one of these days I will strip naked in the vestry for the last 20 minutes before the service and see if that teaches them to knock. Or at least gives them a new more interesting cause for complaint.
Anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
In my experience, Anne, church people often complain that they don't see enough of the minister... that might also remedy that problem!
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I did say 'wait for it...' and oh look, we didn't have to wait too long before Spawn turned up for the pissing contest. If I was a betting man I could have conned some poor sap out of Ł50
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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