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Source: (consider it) Thread: One True Church? Don't make me laugh.
Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
. A health board report from 1944 on the Tuam home describes emaciated, potbellied children, mentally unwell mothers and appalling overcrowding.
I think, had my life been abbreviated by neglect and starvation, that my corpse had been 'neatly stacked' would not count for a lot.

This was treatment legitimised by the church and the society around it, because the one is the expression of the other.

And that is the real point, and I agree with you. The shitstorm that is being brewed up about many of the other issues detracts from that.

RuthW and Organ Builder - I entered this thread because of the gleeful and, imo, appalling one line intervention of LsK: the Church of Ireland welcomes you.

Organ Builder, may I ask if you read the articles to which I linked? And if you did, would you explain to me how they validate your position?

Ruth, the sectarianism in Ireland is starkly different from what you experience in your part of the world. The Catholic Church is taking a real battering - legitimately. It's not religion, or Christians, it's the Catholic Church. So crass interventions like the one from LsK are not innocent ones.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
We think this is yet more evidence that the RCC is not the One True Church. If it were, y'all would collectively be better than the rest of us, but things like this show that you aren't.

There's actually nothing behind the claim that RCs are like everybody else (or worse...). One would need a proper definition of terms ("better", "collectively", "rest of us" "things like this"), sufficient data collection, conceptual analysis and appropriate statistics before one would come close to establishing some objective meaning for this assertion. And to find out the truth about it, I'm pretty sure one has to be God. For example, just how bad is the Protestant wrecking of the sacramental order in the Divine scheme of things? I simply do not know how to weight his up against for example the case at hand; and I reckon neither do you, nor does anybody else.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Amos

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
We think this is yet more evidence that the RCC is not the One True Church. If it were, y'all would collectively be better than the rest of us, but things like this show that you aren't.

There's actually nothing behind the claim that RCs are like everybody else (or worse...). One would need a proper definition of terms ("better", "collectively", "rest of us" "things like this"), sufficient data collection, conceptual analysis and appropriate statistics before one would come close to establishing some objective meaning for this assertion. And to find out the truth about it, I'm pretty sure one has to be God. For example, just how bad is the Protestant wrecking of the sacramental order in the Divine scheme of things? I simply do not know how to weight his up against for example the case at hand; and I reckon neither do you, nor does anybody else.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'the Protestant wrecking of the sacramental order,' but I believe that in the divine scheme of things it's outweighed by the cry of the orphan, the widow, and the stranger.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I completely agree that this is a horrifying, nightmarish thing that has happened. But before we get too self-righteous with regard to Catholicism in Ireland, we might remember that burial of the dead in unmarked mass graves was common practice in asylums and workhouses in England until well into the 20th century.

It does sound as if these institutions functioned very much like workhouses, and on the basis of similar cultural ideas. The underseving destitute and poor must be made to work, must be deprived to motivate them.

In the twenty-first century version, we sanction your benefits and then you have to get your groceries from the food bank.

And before you say that has nothing in common, the poorer people are and the worse their diet, the higher the child mortality and illness burden.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'the Protestant wrecking of the sacramental order,' but I believe that in the divine scheme of things it's outweighed by the cry of the orphan, the widow, and the stranger.

My point precisely. You believe that, and I'm sure RuthW does, too. But of course one can also believe that hell is real and that without the sacrament of confession a lot of Christians are going to end up there. Then the numbers may stack up rather differently... Who is right, who is wrong? God knows. Anyway, even if we grant your view that only charitable action counts, and furthermore that only corporeal charity need be considered, then still RuthW's assertion is empty. Even then we still don't know what must be counted and how, and we still haven't actually counted it. This here is just emotions driven by spectacular events. But sentiments are not a synonym for statistics.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Amos

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InigoB, you've just taken the Scriptural injunction forbidding oppression of the vulnerable and turned it into 'corporal acts of mercy.' Refraining from abuse is not a corporal act of mercy. ('Oh goody! I didn't hurt or humiliate any widows or orphans today! That's my good deed!'). It also implies that you think that the nuns in question knew they were doing wrong. That seems to be a disputable point. My impression is that that particular order thought then, and possibly thinks now, that everything it did was for the good and that it has been sadly misunderstood.
The sacrament of reconciliation is offered in my church; I take it seriously, encourage its use and avail myself of it. In the hierarchy of the church's calls upon human beings, however, it's secondary. So: the act of confessing to your priest that you have, shall we say, committed a murder, and receiving absolution is important, but it is secondary to the commandment which says 'Thou shalt not kill.'

[ 07. June 2014, 05:45: Message edited by: Amos ]

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
[QUOTE]

1. Yet the men who first unearthed remains there as boys describe the bodies they found as "neatly stacked".

2. The tragedy of this is the tragedy of the pauper's grave. There are many of these, including in England, and still functioning today.

1. Forgive me for my earlier comments. Stacking the bodies makes it OK. Huh!

2. Sad but true. But that isn't the church doing it: Ireland was/is. No one's saying that these bodies are those of people who have been abused or mistreated: In Ireland, through the RCC, it's 100% proved guilty of neglect, abuse and possibly far worse.

3. The mortal sin of denying baptism has been mentioned. In that case I expect the fires of hell to be stoked ready for lots more priests, nuns and those who colluded with all this.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
There's actually nothing behind the claim that RCs are like everybody else (or worse...). One would need a proper definition of terms ("better", "collectively", "rest of us" "things like this"), sufficient data collection, conceptual analysis and appropriate statistics before one would come close to establishing some objective meaning for this assertion. And to find out the truth about it, I'm pretty sure one has to be God. For example, just how bad is the Protestant wrecking of the sacramental order in the Divine scheme of things? I simply do not know how to weight his up against for example the case at hand; and I reckon neither do you, nor does anybody else.

Fuck off. Just fuck right the fuck off, and take the suggestion that sacramental order is more important to God than the lives of children with you.

After all, that's the sort of fucked up bullshit idea that got them killed in the first place. And your "the Church is always better, even when it obviously isn't" crap is what got it covered up for so long. Hell, it's why even now church leaders are falling over themselves to say "no big deal, no need to learn or change anything, let's just say a few prayers and move on".

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
For example, just how bad is the Protestant wrecking of the sacramental order in the Divine scheme of things? I simply do not know how to weight his up against for example the case at hand; and I reckon neither do you, nor does anybody else.

You are joking aren't you?

Jesus taught us what is right and that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. It's blatantly obvious that caring for the poor, giving them clothes when they need them, visiting the sick and those in prison is far more important than the churchy wurchy this comes before that dancy prancy dress like this wordy nerdy light that candle first sacraments!

eta - and what Marvin said, he put it much better.

[ 07. June 2014, 07:18: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
For example, just how bad is the Protestant wrecking of the sacramental order in the Divine scheme of things? I simply do not know how to weight his up against for example the case at hand; and I reckon neither do you, nor does anybody else.

You are joking aren't you?

Jesus taught us what is right and that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. It's blatantly obvious that caring for the poor, giving them clothes when they need them, visiting the sick and those in prison is far more important than the churchy wurchy this comes before that dancy prancy dress like this wordy nerdy light that candle first sacraments!

eta - and what Marvin said, he put it much better.

Boogie, I think Ingo wants us to accept that the Reformation explains all the sin in this world, even those of the RCC. It's all our fault for daring to ask questions and act on the answers.

My goodness, how the Reformation has warped the brains of those dear catholic priests such that they are forced to abuse children.

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
InigoB, you've just taken the Scriptural injunction forbidding oppression of the vulnerable and turned it into 'corporal acts of mercy.' Refraining from abuse is not a corporal act of mercy. ('Oh goody! I didn't hurt or humiliate any widows or orphans today! That's my good deed!').

At least you are stating some terms here - so we are now going to evaluate being a "better" Christian exclusively by "avoiding the oppression of the vulnerable"? Fair enough. Next, tell us whom we are going to consider for comparison, a range of time and space and social belonging. Then we will have to talk about what exactly counts as oppression, and how bad what oppression is, comparatively speaking. Then we will have to gather lots of data, process it and then we will have some kind of objective answer to whether RuthW was right in asserting that RCs are just like everybody else (or worse).

That, in case you have forgotten by now, was what I was attacking. The argument structure "something bad has been done by RCs" -> "therefore RCs are like everybody else (or worse)" -> "therefore the RCC is not the one true Church" is just empty rhetoric, it's merely a play on shocked sentiment.

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
It also implies that you think that the nuns in question knew they were doing wrong. That seems to be a disputable point. My impression is that that particular order thought then, and possibly thinks now, that everything it did was for the good and that it has been sadly misunderstood.

To the contrary, I actually discussed this as a likely problem of systemic evil above.

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
So: the act of confessing to your priest that you have, shall we say, committed a murder, and receiving absolution is important, but it is secondary to the commandment which says 'Thou shalt not kill.'

Sure. But since that has nothing to do with what I was talking about, I'm not sure why you mention it.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Fuck off. Just fuck right the fuck off, and take the suggestion that sacramental order is more important to God than the lives of children with you.

First, and let's be very clear about this, there is no contest here between having either the sacramental order or saving children's lives. There is no reason not to have both in any concrete case. What I was talking about was this this easy evaluation of overall Christian performance to arrive at a label "better", which implicitly ignores any spiritual or other-worldly realities. This is not about saying, "sacrifice this child so we can celebrate Mass", or some other horrible Aztec-Christian cultism. This is about saying that the "fruit" that trees bear come in many flavours, and pointing at a rotten apple tells us nothing about how many pears we are going to harvest.

What if the sacramental order is the main thing that stands between the earthly lives of children and an eternity in hell? Yes, I understand that you don't believe in any of that. But your beliefs are not automatically equivalent to the truth. Yes, neither are mine, though I'm pretty confident that I'm a lot closer... but then I would be. Anyway, the point is that you just do not know what you are talking about in evaluating the overall goodness of Christianity, and neither does anybody else, really. To measure Christian goodness exclusively by the corporeal welfare of people is however not Christian. It's materialist humanist.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
And your "the Church is always better, even when it obviously isn't" crap is what got it covered up for so long.

I don't have the slightest problem with admitting that members of my Church have done horrible things, most likely are doing horrible things right now, and certainly will be doing some horrible things in future, and all this while representing my Church in some way or the other. I don't have the slightest problem with admitting that other churches have been more holy, charitable or whatever at times and in places, in the same sense. What I do have a problem with is the argument "and therefore your Church is not the one true Church". Why? Because that argument is bullshit, and relies on sentimental rhetorics. Not that I think that I can prove my Church to be the one true Church by somehow calculating its performance. My point is rather that such calculations are basically impossible.

[ 07. June 2014, 09:29: Message edited by: IngoB ]

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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QLib

Bad Example
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What if the sacramental order is the main thing that stands between the earthly lives of children and an eternity in hell?

No. Because there is some shit no reasonable person can swallow.

If Hell exists, it is Christ who stands between us and it.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
No. Because there is some shit no reasonable person can swallow.

I will never understand this sort of argument:

"I don't like it, therefore it is not real / cannot be the case."

The logical non sequitur is painfully obvious.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
"I can't even begin to rationalise it with the concept of a God who is love and desires all to be saved, therefore it is not real / cannot be the case."

The logical non sequitur is painfully obvious.

Fixed it for you, IngoB.

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
[QUOTE]Not that I think that I can prove my Church to be the one true Church by somehow calculating its performance. My point is rather that such calculations are basically impossible.

OK ask your church to stop referring to itself (implicitly or explicitly) in this way.

You might also address the issue rather than turn it into a playground fight of why or how we might define "my church is better than yours because ..."

Specifics what has the RCC hierarchy in Ireland said about this> What will it do? Has this been condemned by Rome? How will the RCC now represent the love of Christ in Ireland?

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Not that I think that I can prove my Church to be the one true Church by somehow calculating its performance.

True, but by calculating its performance you could prove it - as, I dare say, we all could with regard to our own Churches - to be a bunch of brazen fuckwits who seem to be positively going out of their way to have the "I never knew you" conversation on the Last Great Day.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Jesus seemed to think we could know what was more important:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practised without neglecting the others."

It has been said, with some justification I think, that Jesus was so hard on the Pharisees because he knew how many of his followers would be just like them.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Zach82
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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What if the sacramental order is the main thing that stands between the earthly lives of children and an eternity in hell?

No. Because there is some shit no reasonable person can swallow.
I believe it. Sorry.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What if the sacramental order is the main thing that stands between the earthly lives of children and an eternity in hell?

No. Because there is some shit no reasonable person can swallow.
I believe it. Sorry.
Don't worry; QLib left you a get out clause. You can define yourself as "not a reasonable person".

Hope this helps.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Zach82
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# 3208

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What if the sacramental order is the main thing that stands between the earthly lives of children and an eternity in hell?

No. Because there is some shit no reasonable person can swallow.
I believe it. Sorry.
Don't worry; QLib left you a get out clause. You can define yourself as "not a reasonable person".

Hope this helps.

Seems you and Qlib share IngoB's repulsive general attitude that no rational, decent person could ever disagree with you.

[ 07. June 2014, 12:24: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Nope. Just that there are some things that no rational person can swallow. I can, for example, imagine why someone would support UKIP, whilst vigorously disagreeing with them, but anyone who supports Britain First is a fascist cunt.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
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# 3208

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Nope. Just that there are some things that no rational person can swallow.

"Nope, but yep."

Oh well. If my rationality must bow down to the Sacred Scriptures, then it will bend the knee, with God's help.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Do go and google "Fallacy of the excluded middle", there's a good chap.

"Do go" on it's own'd be fine as well.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Nope. Just that there are some things that no rational person can swallow.

"Nope, but yep."

Oh well. If my rationality must bow down to the Sacred Scriptures, then it will bend the knee, with God's help.

I'm sure God has better things to do with Her time.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Nope. Just that there are some things that no rational person can swallow.

"Nope, but yep."

Oh well. If my rationality must bow down to the Sacred Scriptures, then it will bend the knee, with God's help.

I'm sure God has better things to do with Her time.
I don't share your certainty that you speak for God, which you and Karl say bears on my rationality.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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How you jump from "there are some things that I cannot see how any reasonable person can swallow" to "everyone must agree with me or they're unreasonable" and thence to "I speak for God" is so bloody mysterious, that when I combine it with previous attempts to make sense with you, Zach, it's clear that further discussion would be an absolute exercise in futility.

[ 07. June 2014, 12:46: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

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Karl:
quote:
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practised without neglecting the others."
The problem with selective quotes is that they are . . selective.

Jesus made it quite plain that he continued to recognise that the teachers were in a place ordained by God, which is why he taught people to "obey everything they say, for they stand in the seat of Moses". And, fundamentalist or no, it is hard to see that saying being made up.

And it's not a lot difference from saying someone stands "in the apostolic succession" and do so even if they are a hypocrite. Some knowledgeable Catholics can correct me, but I understand it has never been of faith or universally believed that all Popes end up in heaven.

An interesting test case is in the question: Why do I not believe that the Watchtower society is a valid expression of the Church of Christ (which I don't). I don't decide this by totting up the sins committed by each side. And even though the JW's have their own child-abuse scandal to cope with, it is probable that if the decision were based on sins committed, the JW's may come out on top. Not just because they are few in number, but mainly because they have never had earthly power.

Rather I look at things like is their teaching (e.g. on the Person of Christ, or the Trinity) in line with scripture and the tradition of the church.

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Schnuffle schnuffle.

Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...it's clear that further discussion would be an absolute exercise in futility.

I rather realized that when your first, and subsequently only, response was "You're just obviously irrational and a bad person for disagreeing with me."

It isn't the sort of response that usually leads to interesting engagement.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...it's clear that further discussion would be an absolute exercise in futility.

I rather realized that when your first, and subsequently only, response was "You're just obviously irrational and a bad person for disagreeing with me."


Except it wasn't, and I don't bother chatting with twats who misrepresent (i.e. lie about) what I say. And either you're as thick as shit or deliberately lying about what I said.

So fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

[ 07. June 2014, 13:14: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
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# 3208

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...it's clear that further discussion would be an absolute exercise in futility.

I rather realized that when your first, and subsequently only, response was "You're just obviously irrational and a bad person for disagreeing with me."


Except it wasn't, and I don't bother chatting with twats who misrepresent (i.e. lie about) what I say. And either you're as thick as shit or deliberately lying about what I said.

So fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

What misrepresentation? You called me irrational because I believe something you don't, and offered little else. Now you're throwing a pathetic little temper tantrum when it's pointed out.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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Right. Since you are playing the thick as shit card, let me clarify.

I said that according to QLib's formula, you could not be reasonable and believe a particular statement. I didn't actually say whether I agreed with QLib, but let's suppose I do.

It does not follow from this that I consider you cannot be reasonable and agree with any other statement which which I do not agree. We can divide statements, if you like, into three sets:

1. Things I agree with - e.g. "paying people a living wage is a good idea"
2. Things I don't agree with - e.g. voting Tory
3. Things that are so whacko that I don't see how you can reasonably agree with them - e.g. supporting Britain First.

For it to follow that disagreeing with me == unreasonable, there would have to be no items in the second set. There are plenty, in fact. Therefore there are people with whom I disagree about some things who I don't consider unreasonable. Indeed, it'd be surprising if there were any other person I agreed with everything about.

Therefore the categorisation of you as unreasonable here is not about you "disagreeing with me" - we'd manage to find something I disagreed with in anyone - but rather you "agreeing with a proposition in group 3 above"

And for the record, no I don't think that the belief that God would burn children in Hell except for the existence of a sacramental order is anything any reasonable person would believe, any more than I think any reasonable person can be a racist.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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I do agree with Ingo that if there is an eternity, assuring that we spend it in whatever Heaven is, is more important than anything that happens to us in this quick little life. Yet, Jesus thought how we spent this life was important enough to instruct us to feed the poor comfort the sick, etc.

What always confuses me about the claim of the RCC to be the one true church is not so much their actions but why they think that in the first place. Didn't Jesus and the early church leaders like Paul indicate that any church that believed in Jesus as Savior was a Christian Church? Who came up with the idea that some church leaders were "in a line" from Peter and some weren't? Maybe Martin Luther was the priest next in line from Peter and every Pope since then has been part of a wayward branch, rather like the followers of Mary Queen of Scots in the line of British Royalty. There is argument for either direction and who sits in which throne may not represent where the truth resides.

Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
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# 3208

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quote:
Right. Since you are playing the thick as shit card, let me clarify...
If it truly makes you feel better, I honestly didn't mean to comment on your behavior at all times and in all places.

Though since you still have nothing to offer by "You're just obviously irrational for disagreeing with me," it still seems there is nothing to talk about.

[ 07. June 2014, 13:42: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
"I can't even begin to rationalise it with the concept of a God who is love and desires all to be saved, therefore it is not real / cannot be the case."
The logical non sequitur is painfully obvious.

Fixed it for you, IngoB.
Well, no, you didn't. Even with your edits it remains a non sequitur. That you cannot grasp something simply does not make it untrue per se. Furthermore, who says that God is not a horrendous monster? I may share QLibs' belief that He isn't, but just because we agree does not make that true either.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Right. Since you are playing the thick as shit card, let me clarify...
If it truly makes you feel better, I honestly didn't mean to comment on your behavior at all times and in all places.

Though since you still have nothing to offer by "You're just obviously irrational for disagreeing with me," it still seems there is nothing to talk about.

Zach, the fallacy of the excluded middle was pointed out to you ages ago. Stop engaging in it if you want to prove that you are, in fact, rational.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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Big surprise, the guy who gets offended when someone rehashes German grammar with him is here to nurse hurt feelings over insufficiently specific comments.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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[Roll Eyes]

You just add to your catalogue of nursed grievances, Zach, and the big adults will talk over your head.

EDIT: I'm always here.

[ 07. June 2014, 14:53: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
.... who says that God is not a horrendous monster? I may share QLibs' belief that He isn't, but just because we agree does not make that true either.

Yes, but the point is, are you still prepared to worship God if She tuns out to be horrendously monstrous?

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
. A health board report from 1944 on the Tuam home describes emaciated, potbellied children, mentally unwell mothers and appalling overcrowding.
I think, had my life been abbreviated by neglect and starvation, that my corpse had been 'neatly stacked' would not count for a lot.

This was treatment legitimised by the church and the society around it, because the one is the expression of the other.

And that is the real point, and I agree with you. The shitstorm that is being brewed up about many of the other issues detracts from that.
Well, believe it or not, the relationship between church, society, and the prejudices that lead to this kind of behavior is in part what I was trying to address. What I added to that is that in my eyes the Catholic Church is just as likely to be enmeshed in such behavior and to provide justification for it as any other church, which provides more support for a position I already hold, i.e., that the Catholic Church is not the one true church. I don't expect you to agree with me, TT, but surely you can see why I think the way I do about this.

quote:
RuthW and Organ Builder - I entered this thread because of the gleeful and, imo, appalling one line intervention of LsK: the Church of Ireland welcomes you.

<snip>

Ruth, the sectarianism in Ireland is starkly different from what you experience in your part of the world. The Catholic Church is taking a real battering - legitimately. It's not religion, or Christians, it's the Catholic Church. So crass interventions like the one from LsK are not innocent ones.

I don't have the context for this that you do. And I have no idea what LsK's context is. "The Church of Ireland welcomes you" to me here sounds a lot like "The Episcopal Church welcomes you" - which could have a couple of different meanings in such a context, depending on who was speaking and the tone they took. Here in Southern California, the Episcopal Church doesn't begin to compete with the Catholic Church for numbers, but we do get lots of disaffected Catholics - a small number in a Catholic context, a large number in an Episcopal context. What most of us mean when we say "the EC welcomes you" to Catholics who are abandoning their church is that we think they might be at home in ours. The one person I know who really is gleeful when he says this is a former Catholic who is quite bitter about his experience.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Over a thousand people died in sectarian violence over a period of of thirty years across Ireland and Northern Ireland (not to mention mainland Britain) - in that historical context LsK's comment was extremely provocative.

I struggle to believe he hasn't heard about this.

[ 07. June 2014, 20:07: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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I've heard of it, but the phrasing of the comment is so close to the phrasing of a similar comment I hear from time to time that I hear it in my own context, not an Irish one. And I hear news reports about Catholic authorities in Ireland not appearing to give a shit about people's lives in the context of Catholic authorities here in Southern California not appearing to give a shit about people's lives.

Maybe LsK really was gleeful, but I haven't yet seen anything that shows for sure that he was. Maybe he'll show up and tell us himself.

[ 07. June 2014, 20:30: Message edited by: RuthW ]

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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The vast majority of people in Ireland are not so stupid to assume that the Roman Catholic Church and the Episcopalians are not both Christians. It's getting beyond the point of denominational sins; people are simply considering walking away from Christianity period; one of the reasons there has been no great influx into other denominations. The Church of Ireland certainly hasn't clean hands. If you want to go back before disestablishment you can find plenty of horror stories of oppression, truly galling tales of wanton neglect in times of famine, and more recently the whole Bethany Home scandal and the fact that the insidious organisation (Irish Church Missions) that propped it all up and allowed it to happen, still exists right in the centre of Dublin city.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442

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It appears that some things in this story are not as they were originally reported - see here irish times article
Still, almost 800 children died from various causes at this place over 36 years. That's about one a fortnight on average. To me, this seems like too many.
I can't really comprehend how the whole magdalene laundries, mother and baby homes, industrial schools etc came to be so prevalent in Ireland at that time and nobody else spoke against it. I am a different generation, the Catholic Church is much less powerful than it used to be (though it is still more dominant I think than the C of E is in England I think.)
But here's the thing - there have always been Quakers, Jews, Anglicans, nonconformist protestants in Ireland (though they are in the minority). What were they doing for these women and children? Why were the women's own families rejecting them? (I think the only way to get out of a magdalene laundry was to be claimed by your family but I've lost the link)
Fear of the power of the church?
Trust that the church/priests know better?
Wanting to avoid shaming the family with illegitimate children?
It is not just about what the nuns, priests, church hierarchy did or didn't do. It is about what the rest of society did or didn't do, the questions nobody asked, the complaints that were ignored.

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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese

Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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AIUI the Irish government gave the Church the complete responsibility for all social services. There was no provision for independent oversight.

I do know that sometime in the 1950s there was a movement to alter some part of the social services arrangement. The government asked the Church to send representatives to work with legislators in drafting the new regulations. The Church refused.

When the time came for the bill to be voted on, the Church announced that any Catholic who voted for it would be committing a mortal sin. The bill failed, and the Church kept all its power.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064

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Originally posted by Moo:

quote:
When the time came for the bill to be voted on, the Church announced that any Catholic who voted for it would be committing a mortal sin. The bill failed, and the Church kept all its power.

The Roman church frightening people into submission? Some things never change, do they?
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274

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Ruth's inference was correct. I was reflecting the tag line on TEC church location signs that point down the road in the direction of parish churches and say"The Episcpal Church Welcomes you", as they have done throughout my lifetime. Many US Episcopal parishes have a fair number of former RCs (as do many Lutheran parishes on this side of the pond). The idea in general is essentially, "Burned on the RCC? We Episcopalians welcome you and you may feel comfortable in our liturgical, devotional, and theological traditions." I'm sorry the post was seen simply as gloating. I do understand that the CofI gets a trickle of RCs and indeed the Anglican priest who prepared me for confirmation was a former RC from the Republic, though he'd served a parish in Swansea during WWII before eventually coming to the US in the 1950s.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[Roll Eyes]

You just add to your catalogue of nursed grievances, Zach, and the big adults will talk over your head.

EDIT: I'm always here.

The disdain of sad Australian spinsters is less and less of a concern for me these days.
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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I hope it isn't unseemly for me to say it in front of others, Karl, but since you've added me to your ignore list I can't respond to your PM otherwise. I assure you I will not argue with you on the Lord's Day.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

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I know exactly where your one-liner came from LsK. And that was what I found so crass - making capital out of what was once again seen as a Catholic issue. The truth is it is an Irish issue. Granted, the Catholic Church is intricately caught up in that, but so are other churches. To try and say "oh it's those evil Catholics - why not become a protestant?" is gross.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
The government asked the Church to send representatives to work with legislators in drafting the new regulations. The Church refused.

When the time came for the bill to be voted on, the Church announced that any Catholic who voted for it would be committing a mortal sin. The bill failed, and the Church kept all its power.

And power corrupts.

Just how corrupt the Church was/is I suspect we'll never know [Frown]

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged



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