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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: One True Church? Don't make me laugh.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
And BTW, I did read Fr TT's links regarding the CofI Bethany Home as soon as he posted. The thing is, I don't think the grotesque history of either the RC or CofI "charitable" institutions in Ireland is likely to be repeated in the present day. If there were something along the line of human exploitation in the developed countries of the West that I think we still need to worry about in the present day, it would be the sexual abuse of children by clergy and church workers both in the RCC and other churches. However, I don't think the admittedly disturbing history in Ireland regarding certain institutions is something akin to the Holocaust, with the multiple repetitions of genocide since then, and with the continuing tendency for antisemitism to raise its ugly head. I'd say that what is more worthy of present concern is how ecclesiastical polity operates in ways that can foster a variety of ills in the Church, moreover hiding much from public view.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The Church of Ireland welcomes you.
This sort of sectarian opportunism is what is most unsettling about this thread.
I don't fucking believe this! 800 babies dead and the Catholic Apologists still manage to find a way of claiming that the most disturbing thing is how persecuted those poor ickle Catholics are.
Yes, LSK's comment was in poor taste. But yours was fundamentally lacking in humanity.
I knew that at some stage you were bound to hove into view.
If you didn't always attempt to charge in on your white rocking horse you would have noted the words "this thread".
And you don't find using dead babies to promote sectarian opportunism disturbing?
I find it crass rather than disturbing. I find your attempts to claim that that's the most disturbing thing on the thread to be far, far worse. As if you believe that the real horror is people sniping at the Roman Catholic Church.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
LSK: quote:
I'd say that what is more worthy of present concern is how ecclesiastical polity operates in ways that can foster a variety of ills in the Church, moreover hiding much from public view.
"Don't scandalize the faithful." Hah! Believe it or not, the laity can handle the concept of sin, even in their leadership. They understand falling short of the glory of God and of penitence and of perseverance. What they really have trouble with is hypocrisy.
Hell, yes, do "scandalize" the faithful (as in distressing their moral sensibilities) when the Church has behaved scandalously. Lance the wounds. Clean out the infection. And do it soonest, not decades late. Let the wounds scab over in the light and eventually they will fall away, leaving a scar but also healthy flesh ready to serve and prosper.
Pope Francis wants evangelism. The Church consistently showing humility in the face of corporate sin would be one place to start. Then all the Church's mercies would shine the brighter.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Thought yous all might like to know that the Tuam story has just been Spiked by (atheist) Brendan O'Neill in a remarkable piece entitled "The Tuam tank: another myth about evil Ireand. The obsession with Ireland’s dark past has officially become unhinged."
Selected passages, but do read the whole thing at the link above: quote:
On almost every level, the news reports in respectable media outlets around the world were plain wrong. Most importantly, the constantly repeated line about the bodies of 800 babies having been found was pure mythmaking. The bodies of 800 babies had not been found, in the septic tank or anywhere else [...] it’s actually not possible that all 800 dead babies are in this tank-cum-crypt, as pretty much every media outlet has claimed. Mainly because, as the Irish Times reports, the septic tank was still in use up to 1937, 12 years after the home opened, during which time 204 of the 796 deaths occurred - and ‘it seems impossible’, the paper says, ‘that more than 200 bodies could have been put in a working sewage tank’. Also, the Irish Times spoke to one of the men who in 1975, when he was 10 years old, disturbed the former septic tank and saw skeletal remains, and he says now that ‘there was no way there were 800 skeletons down that hole. Nothing like that number.’ He says there were ‘about 20’.
[...]
There is no doubt that life was grim in that home in Tuam, as it was across the west of Ireland in the early to mid-twentieth century. Poverty was rife and disease was rampant in rural parts of Ireland back then, and such problems were even more pronounced in no doubt badly run homes for single mums and illegitimate children. As the Irish Times says, infant mortality was depressingly high in early twentieth-century Ireland, ‘particularly in institutions, where infection spread rapidly’. It might be worth doing a serious analysis of conditions in these institutions, and of how the poverty combined with the severe moral strictures to create an unhealthy and repressive environment. But what we have today in pretty much every discussion of Ireland’s history is nothing like analysis but rather a kind of perverted dirt-digging, a scrabbling about in the events of the past for evidence of Catholic depravity and human suffering that we can all now get off on denouncing and being showily shocked by.
The transformation of Ireland’s past into a cesspit of human wickedness that modern Irish historians and assorted Catholic-bashers can dip into in search for stuff to stand up their contemporary prejudices inevitably leads to the skewing of facts.
[...]
Whenever the exaggerations and myths about Ireland’s past are exposed, the same thing is said: okay, these might have been lies but they were good lies, because they got people talking about the history of Catholic abuse in Ireland.
[...]
Was the Ireland of yesteryear a sometimes harsh and unpleasant place? Yes. Did the Catholic Church mistreat some of the women and children in its care? Undoubtedly. But the unhealthy obsession over the past 10 years with raking over Ireland’s past has little to do with confirming such facts and instead has become a kind of grotesque moral sport, providing kicks to the anti-Catholic brigade and fuel to the historical self-flagellation that now passes for public life in Ireland.
[ 09. June 2014, 17:16: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Beneath the shrill and the headline, if anyone actually wants to know the truth, then you will discover that the Catholic Church is now extremely robust when it comes to issues of child-protection. This impacts daily parish life in a way not done before. As an example: I publish the name of our safeguarding officer on the front page of every parish newsletter; children acting as altar servers need to be vested and out of the sacristy before I get there; CRB checks for everyone working with children's liturgy, or any child activity and so on. These were all implemented over a decade ago.
I have no doubt that is true in your case, Father TT, and reading your posts through the years I truly believe this is something you care about very much. Nonetheless, in the US it is not always so well done. That's not to say the church has been universally horrid here--even in the late 1970s when such matters were first coming to light there were dioceses where very strong safeguards were put into place and followed strictly. Unfortunately, it was not--and is not--universal. Those who enforce the rules and policies usually take their lead from the bishop, and if he isn't as convinced it is a serious matter, it won't be treated as one. As a result, therefore, new allegations are still coming out of crimes that took place long after policies should have been implemented, and even as recently as last year we saw trials of mid-level clerics.
Now this was not and is not something confined to Catholics alone--although the somewhat arcane lines of power in the hierarchy made it easier to hide if a prelate was so moved. If they weren't claiming to be the One True Church (tm) one might suggest the "corporate culture" of the hierarchy needs more change (and I say that as someone who realizes the corporate culture has already improved a great deal over the last 30 years, at least in the US).
Other churches have other problems--congregationally-based churches such as the Southern Baptists have had a hard time putting national policies for child protection into effect because the national organization has little or no power over individual churches. Many of the individual churches have stellar procedures and follow them; many do not.
Yes, I read your links--all of them. I am not attempting to justify the C of I. I'm not going to play the game of whose sins were worse. This particular story happens to be about the Catholic Church in Ireland, so it's not surprising the Catholic Church is taking the heat at the moment.
Like any US Episcopalian, I've seen "The Episcopal Church Welcomes You" on signs and promotional literature for longer than I can say. 815 has spent a lot of money trying to drum that phrase into the head of anyone who will listen. So Lietuvos' remark was snarky (not unusual for this forum...) and perhaps in borderline bad taste. It's clear, though, that it has a particular resonance in the US that it doesn't have where you are. I did find it--interesting--that you used the off-the-cuff remark to give four links stories about how awful the C of I had been while decrying a cheap attempt to make partisan points off of the Catholic story.
It's always the first news story that brings out the strongest reactions, but the truth will come out later. As always, the Church can handle this well or poorly, or somewhere in between. Based on the past PR disasters, I'm not going to bet they handle it very well.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
I find it crass rather than disturbing. I find your attempts to claim that that's the most disturbing thing on the thread to be far, far worse. As if you believe that the real horror is people sniping at the Roman Catholic Church.
No, not at all. I had my piece to say about the Church myself, in the very post from which you quoted. May I remind you:
quote:
There is a massive tragedy here about the poor and the marginalised. And the Church - all Churches - which should have been at the forefront of caring and alleviating their suffering turned the moral tables on their heads and instead joined in the punishment. Sickening.
LsK I have no problem with you canvassing for people to join the Anglican Church, and a decent purgatory thread would do the trick. To me your intervention simply overlooked the tragedy at issue with a stupid remark.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
I did find it--interesting--that you used the off-the-cuff remark to give four links stories about how awful the C of I had been while decrying a cheap attempt to make partisan points off of the Catholic story.
My intent was not "we were bad, but so what, you were too?" I was attempting to show the false premise of LsK's posts, namely "Leave those evil RCs and come to us lovely, nice Anglicans". Playing moral one-upmanship is a stupid, stupid thing to do when one is traversing this sad issue.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
I did find it--interesting--that you used the off-the-cuff remark to give four links stories about how awful the C of I had been while decrying a cheap attempt to make partisan points off of the Catholic story.
My intent was not "we were bad, but so what, you were too?" I was attempting to show the false premise of LsK's posts, namely "Leave those evil RCs and come to us lovely, nice Anglicans". Playing moral one-upmanship is a stupid, stupid thing to do when one is traversing this sad issue.
Oh dear! Fr TT, you really took my comment way too seriously and extrapolated meaning that just wasn't there. It's a tag liner, ok? If you think I was being grossly flippant about a very sad matter, I can concede that. However, the comment was not intended seriously either to scapegoat or denigrate the RCC, nor to exalt Anglicans -- it just wasn't that deep, nor intended to be. I've indicated here that in the present day I consider that if I were going to criticise a particular aspect of the RCC it would be in respect to its polity and the way in which the hierarchy tends at its worst to function in result of that polity.
[ 09. June 2014, 21:27: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Would anyone here who considers that meaning can be construed through anything other than the words in their posts raise a hand now.
Thought not.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
LsK:
Okay, I'll accept that from you because I know you well enough. I am perhaps targeting your comment because it was the most explicit statement of what others were also saying.
[ 09. June 2014, 22:46: Message edited by: Triple Tiara ]
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Brendan O'Neill is the expletive-deleted who tried to play down Serbian atrocities against Bosnian muslims when he was at Living Marxism, so rather than having any cred because he's an atheist, he's better known as an atrocity denier - so it's a terrible, terrible idea to use him as a defence in a case like this, even when he has got a main point correct. People who haven't checked out the story already will tend to dismiss him out of hand. He sets my teeth on edge and I know the septic tank story is dodgy.
The important point about Catherine Corless being misquoted has already been made by other journalists at the Irish Times who don't have his reputation.
The trouble with the septic tank story
Archaeologists like John Tierney have also confirmed that nobody knows the burial situation. The 796 babies in a septic tank bit which people have latched onto hasn't got evidence to back up the burial claims beyond an argument from silence ( the kids are not in other cemetery records) and some speculation based on burials found by schoolboys which weren't properly investigated at the time. There's nothing much sensible to be said about burials until the archaeologists have a good look.
Archaeology, the Tuam Workhouse & St. Mary's Mother & Baby Home - a personal perspective
But the crucial thing to bear in mind is that the mortality rates are way out for what they should be, even given the high infant mortality rates of the time. Something was very wrong here.
Prof Delaney, who is professor of economics at Stirling University in Scotland, praised the work of Tuam woman Catherine Corless who has studied the excessive number of deaths at the mother and baby home in Tuam, Co Galway.
Prof Delaney said the rate of death at the mother and baby home in Tuam cannot also be explained by the significantly higher rate of infant mortality among children born out of wedlock.
“This points to something serious within these institutions,” he said. “Catherine Corless’s work points to the need for further investigation of these homes.”
(Delaney is the lead author on the 2010 study 'From Angela’s ashes to the Celtic tiger: Early life conditions and adult health in Ireland' so knows what he's talking about)
So it would be unwise to conclude because of the unproven and probably exaggerated or wrong septic tank story that there is nothing to see here - move along. It needs investigation to see whether there was something very badly wrong here in particular or systemically wrong. The mortality rates are the thing to think about. There's no clean bill of health here because the septic tank story is on shaky ground.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
If the infants were being given standard institutional care as it so often existed at the time, a good deal of thd mortality may have been due to failure to thrive, due not to gross physical maltreatment or malnutrition, but to lack of active emotional nurturence, including an absence of tactile stimulation beyond the minimum required to take care of the most basic physical needs. I doubt that causality can ever be established absent the testimony of any very aged persons who would have any insight into how the institution operated on a practical level.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
[I]t would be unwise to conclude because of the unproven and probably exaggerated or wrong septic tank story that there is nothing to see here - move along. It needs investigation to see whether there was something very badly wrong here in particular or systemically wrong. The mortality rates are the thing to think about. There's no clean bill of health here because the septic tank story is on shaky ground.
Bugger me puce, Louise - who the freuchie said anything about "clean bill of health - nothing to see here"?
Reality check: people were puking their guts out with outrage - whether entirely spontaneous or in part manufactured to advance their prejudices only they can know - precisely over the "fact" that nuns had chucked away 800 kiddies they'd neglected to death like so much shit. Precisely that. Not over whether conditions of care in the home in question were to some greater or lesser degree worse than the average for the Ireland of the day.
And now, when the news reports all over the world of precisely these sensational details - which, let's face it, made the story newsworthy in the first place - look as reliable as a broken geiger-counter, we're to just shut up about that because someone you don't trust as a reporter happens to comment on it? After all the shit that people here have flung on the Catholic Church on the back of those details?
With the greatest respect, fuck that.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
I am probably naive, but I keep waiting for an apology. Preferably without defensiveness, equivocation, or excuses.
Why is it so difficult to admit that dreadful things were done and that "we" were first among those doing them?
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
But at the moment we don't even know what precisely the apology would be for. When we know what happened and why, then we can have proper apologies and expressions of regret that actually have a chance of meaning something.
In the meantime, taking this issue as seriously as it demands, condemning whatever wrongdoing is actually known to have been perpetrated and supporting the call for a fully independent inquiry so we can find out what did go on seems to be proportionate and sensible.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
[I]t would be unwise to conclude because of the unproven and probably exaggerated or wrong septic tank story that there is nothing to see here - move along. It needs investigation to see whether there was something very badly wrong here in particular or systemically wrong. The mortality rates are the thing to think about. There's no clean bill of health here because the septic tank story is on shaky ground.
Bugger me puce, Louise - who the freuchie said anything about "clean bill of health - nothing to see here"?
Reality check: people were puking their guts out with outrage - whether entirely spontaneous or in part manufactured to advance their prejudices only they can know - precisely over the "fact" that nuns had chucked away 800 kiddies they'd neglected to death like so much shit. Precisely that. Not over whether conditions of care in the home in question were to some greater or lesser degree worse than the average for the Ireland of the day.
And now, when the news reports all over the world of precisely these sensational details - which, let's face it, made the story newsworthy in the first place - look as reliable as a broken geiger-counter, we're to just shut up about that because someone you don't trust as a reporter happens to comment on it? After all the shit that people here have flung on the Catholic Church on the back of those details?
With the greatest respect, fuck that.
Telling you to "shut up about that because someone [I] don't trust as a reporter happens to comment on it" was exactly what I wasn't doing. I was suggesting to you some better sources for saying that the septic tank thing was dodgy - as you'd see if you checked my links, as I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that you didn't know this guy was notorious for atrocity denial and so a terrible choice to link to. This is not someone you want on your side when you can have historians and archaeologists backing you up instead.
My point is exactly that people shouldn't be "puking their guts out with outrage" over sensationalised news reports of burial practices but that I think the conditions of care are what are important.
"Bugger me puce, Louise - who the freuchie said anything about "clean bill of health - nothing to see here"? -
Quite a few people on social media - the whole septic tank debacle tends to overshadow the reliable work of the local historian into the deaths - which appears to fit into a context of research - that there was something very bad going on with the infant mortality rates at these homes. I don't think that should be lost sight of.
But if you'd rather associate the rebuttal of false claims about the septic tank with people famous for attempting to white-wash Serb atrocities, and would rather have a go at me for giving you some historical and archaeological thinking to go on instead (the archaeologist has actually dug there and knows the site), then fine, get on with shooting yourself in the foot.
[ 10. June 2014, 01:29: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I applaud those of you who aren't just shrieking DEAD BABIES! as if that's some kind of trump card that negates all rational thought about the topic.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Irish children may have been subject of vaccine trials
Not saying this is true, who knows but if it turns out to be true, how exactly could the passionately right-to-life church justify this? It just gets worse and worse.
I suppose if there were horrendous death rates through infection, then vaccination trials might have seemed like a godsend. The way people with advanced cancer sign up for drug trials, it might not work - but what if it did ?
(From the perspective of the mothers and the nuns, who knows what the scientists thought they were doing.)
[ 10. June 2014, 06:40: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
What happens now.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
But at the moment we don't even know what precisely the apology would be for. When we know what happened and why, then we can have proper apologies and expressions of regret that actually have a chance of meaning something.
From a P.R. perspective, it would be wise to make a general apology now for whatever happened while these children were under the Catholic Church's care, and then make specific apologies later when what exactly happened has been discerned.
Also, I do not see the point of all this sectarian schadenfreude. What affects the public perception of the Catholic Church also affects their perception of all organized religion, especially Christ's Church. This is a significant cause behind the rise in irreligiousity among the current generation.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Louise
Good points about Brendan O'Neill; I'd forgotten about his denial of Serbian atrocities.
But as you say, the septic tank story is not really the issue, but the care given (or not) to the children.
I suppose there is a suggestion that they were poorly cared for, because they were illegitimate, or unwanted in some way. This sounds rather like the foundling hospitals found elsewhere.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
Telling you to "shut up about that because someone [I] don't trust as a reporter happens to comment on it" was exactly what I wasn't doing. I was suggesting to you some better sources for saying that the septic tank thing was dodgy - as you'd see if you checked my links, as I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that you didn't know this guy was notorious for atrocity denial and so a terrible choice to link to.
Thanks, Louise - I'm bandaging my foot as we speak and hoping it blightys me out of the conflict for a bit. Genuinely sorry if I picked you up wrongly, passions were flying high. But I don't think it is honest of posters here - of whom youwere a noble exception - who were screaming abuse at the Church over "800 babies dumped as excrement by evli Catholics" just to ignore it when it is pointed out that that "detail" turns out to have been in no way substantiated - just to blank it and move on to criticise the Church on other ground without so much as a blink. I accept that you were not doing that an apologise.
But as to Brendan O'Neill's notoriety as an atrocity denier, I admit that I knew nothing about that whatsoever, having previously only glanced at his wiki entry. But if he is, the notoriety of it is not so very notorious as to make it into his profile there.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
From a P.R. perspective, it would be wise to make a general apology now for whatever happened while these children were under the Catholic Church's care, and then make specific apologies later when what exactly happened has been discerned.
I can see why you would say that, but I don't think that such a general "we apologise now for what happened, whatever it turns out did happen" would be fair, honest or respectful - and I don't think the public would buy it as meaningful. Instead, saying something like what Abp Martin did say - i.e., it looks as if something was badly wrong here, let's work hard to find out what did happen and who was responsible - is much more sensible and proportionate. Imagine if he'd apologised for those 800 babies dumped as sewage.
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
Also, I do not see the point of all this sectarian schadenfreude. What affects the public perception of the Catholic Church also affects their perception of all organized religion, especially Christ's Church. This is a significant cause behind the rise in irreligiousity among the current generation.
I think you're onto something here, but to be fair to the Catholic-bashers, it seems to be the Catholic Church that gets by far the biggest kicking in the press and public opinion. Perhaps they think that the worse the Catholic Church comes out looking the better they'll look in comparison?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I had a quick look around a few forums, and the '800 babies dumped in excrement' story has been uncritically accepted by most, which doesn't surprise me at all. As John Ford said in one of his films, 'when the legend becomes fact, print the legend'. However, the story remains shocking without the septic tank.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
Thank you to both Chesterbelloc and Louise ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I am now sorry I bought the whole tank story, thinking it to be different from the urban myth style of generic children stumbling into a generic cavity to find a number of generic skeletons (like the buried train under Crystal Palace).
But it was the sheer numbers involved in the period, wherever they lay, that made it seem not to be that sort of thing. And if some of them were put in a septic tank, it was still, in my view, inappropriate.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Having read part of the Ryan Report I am not surprised by any new stories of mistreatment of children in Irish institutions.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
I would guess that over-crowding would have been an important factor resulting in a higher death rate from infectious disease than elsewhere. But only one factor.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
... it seems to be the Catholic Church that gets by far the biggest kicking in the press and public opinion. Perhaps they think that the worse the Catholic Church comes out looking the better they'll look in comparison?
Be careful--the only good martyr is a dead martyr.
The Catholic Church is always going to get the biggest beating in Ireland because they have always been the biggest game in town. From what I see on sites I visit (admittedly a self-selected sample) the C of E doesn't get off all that lightly in the English press.
Apart from the continuing child abuse scandals, the Catholic Church doesn't get that much press here (and they only get press for the child abuse scandals here when new allegations of recent abuse turn up or when a criminal trial is actually taking place). Otherwise, it's more likely to be the lower-case evangelical Christian Right taking a general beating in the press--precisely because they have been much more politically vocal and important.
In fact, the older I get the more I tend to believe that the collusion of politics and religion is invariably bad for religion.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
The Catholic Church is always going to get the biggest beating in Ireland because they have always been the biggest game in town.
Even if that were a reasonable explanation within Ireland, it wouldn't explain the beating the Catholic Church gets in the UK press. And, believe me, it gets the biggest beating. There will doubtless be any number reasons for that - one of which is the general liberal tendency of the UK media - but it doesn't excuse, for example, the BBC this afternoon still headlining radio news with the "remains of 800 babies found in septic tank in Catholic home" angle.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Admittedly we aren't quite as close to the story as you are. Still, in the US the Catholic Press seems just as eager as the secular press to know what happened there.
You are free to continually--and correctly-- point out that 800 babies did not end up in the septic tank. At some point, though, an explanation or apology will be necessary for why 796 babies died and some (perhaps 20 or fewer) did end up in the septic tank.
It's a horrible, tragic story because of the wasted life, oppression, and lost potential--not because it places the Catholic Church under a scrutiny it has historically worked to avoid.
All of the Catholics I know in "Real Life" understand that, and with one or two possible exceptions I honestly believe the Catholics on the Ship do as well. The knee-jerk defense, however, helps the Church no more than the knee-jerk attack.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I can't help but to hope that the people in charge of taking care of these children were doing the best they could in a society that didn't want these kids, didn't support them, and was even openly hostile to their very existence. I just can't imagine that the whole community carried on in complete ignorance of the overcrowding and poverty of these refuges.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
The Catholic Church is always going to get the biggest beating in Ireland because they have always been the biggest game in town.
Even if that were a reasonable explanation within Ireland, it wouldn't explain the beating the Catholic Church gets in the UK press. And, believe me, it gets the biggest beating. There will doubtless be any number reasons for that - one of which is the general liberal tendency of the UK media - but it doesn't excuse, for example, the BBC this afternoon still headlining radio news with the "remains of 800 babies found in septic tank in Catholic home" angle.
The situation may be different in the U.K. where there is an established church, but in the U.S., people are far less likely to distinguish between Roman Catholicism and general Christianity than in the past when there was a dominant Protestant social establishment. Since the Catholic Church is currently the biggest and most prominent denomination, it becomes the default Christian church in people's minds. Thus, when a scandal occurs in the Catholic Church, people are far less likely to see it as merely a Roman Catholic problem, but rather a problem with Christianity in general.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
The Catholic Church is always going to get the biggest beating in Ireland because they have always been the biggest game in town.
Even if that were a reasonable explanation within Ireland, it wouldn't explain the beating the Catholic Church gets in the UK press. And, believe me, it gets the biggest beating. There will doubtless be any number reasons for that - one of which is the general liberal tendency of the UK media - but it doesn't excuse, for example, the BBC this afternoon still headlining radio news with the "remains of 800 babies found in septic tank in Catholic home" angle.
I remember when the Pope visited, I was amazed at the anti-Catholic narrative which was pursued in the media, including the BBC. But then I suppose it has always existed in England, well 'always' means since Henry VIII, maybe. There is probably still a residual anti-Irish narrative as well. I am curious about foundling hospitals which existed in England, to find out if similar things happened. Of course, it doesn't reduce the horror of Tuam.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I'm not sure there's an anti-Irish narrative - where's the evidence for that? The Irish joke died out years ago; many popular celebrities are Irish.
There was an interesting programme about the Thomas Coram foundling hospital on Radio 4, a couple of weeks ago. In brief, they began by trying to restrict the circumstances in which they would take children - when they tried an 'open door' policy there were overwhelmed, but we're talking eighteenth century here.
We know that, even in the early-to-mid twentieth century, in a lot of countries, unwanted children, particularly from unmarried mothers, were treated in a variety of appalling ways, and we know it wasn't just Catholics doing that.
As there is now going to be an enquiry, I hope people will stop making wild allegations.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
You are free to continually--and correctly-- point out that 800 babies did not end up in the septic tank. At some point, though, an explanation or apology will be necessary for why 796 babies died and some (perhaps 20 or fewer) did end up in the septic tank.
Thanks. And I'm suggesting that that point will have been reached when we actually know what happened at Tuam - not before. Is that so very controversial?
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
The knee-jerk defense, however, helps the Church no more than the knee-jerk attack.
Knee-jerk? What's "knee-jerk" about a response that is a reasoned reply to a barrage of anti-Catholic "outrage" which turns out to have been premised on a completely unsubstantiated claim?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
As I understand it, there is nothing unsubstantiated about the claim that 796 babies died at Tuam. It is only the disposal of all of their bodies in a septic tank that is unsubstantiated.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
As I understand it, there is nothing unsubstantiated about the claim that 796 babies died at Tuam. It is only the disposal of all of their bodies in a septic tank that is unsubstantiated.
"All their bodies"? The one witness who was asked about this recently has said he saw "maybe 20". And the septic tank was not concurrently being used as a septic tank.
But yes, the 796 figure over 40 or so years is not disputed. But do we know why there were so many fatalities? Was it deliberate neglect? Was it murder? Was it indifference to health? was it medical imcompetence? Was it poor sanitation? Was it epidemic disease?
If we don't know, we don't know what kind of tragedy we're even talking about here. Until we have a better idea, maybe we can stop with all the sensational speculation. The Church will gets whatever lumps it deserves for this when the truth is out, you can be certain of that. Just have a bit of patience.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
You are free to continually--and correctly-- point out that 800 babies did not end up in the septic tank. At some point, though, an explanation or apology will be necessary for why 796 babies died and some (perhaps 20 or fewer) did end up in the septic tank.
It would also be nice to know what happened to the bodies that were not in the septic tank. The historian only found a burial record for one of the 796 dead children (they were not all babies) which suggests that the others were not buried with the usual rites in consecrated ground.
Zach82,
Of course the community knew of the high death rate. It's hard not to notice when one child at your school dies every week, but the local children were told not to mix with the kids from the home and were encouraged to bully them. Blaming the church is a way of avoiding the fact that the whole community was aware and, to some extent, complicit.
[x-post]
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
But yes, the 796 figure over 40 or so years is not disputed. But do we know why there were so many fatalities? Was it deliberate neglect? Was it murder? Was it indifference to health? was it medical imcompetence? Was it poor sanitation? Was it epidemic disease?
If we don't know, we don't know what kind of tragedy we're even talking about here.
If it meant a mortality rate of .01%, 796 deaths would be a figure to be celebrated. The article Louise linked above, though, states that in 1943 Tuam had a 35% mortality rate. Admittedly, that would have been a war year--but Tuam wasn't exactly Dunkirk or the beaches of Normandy. Indeed, an infant born last year in Afghanistan with all the upheaval going on there had a better chance of surviving than a child born in the home at Tuam.
It might surprise you to know the septic tank element of the story doesn't really horrify me--to me, the tragedy here does not depend on where the bodies are, though I think it would be nice to learn that.
We have had enough discussion in the past, Chesterbelloc, that I know you love your church and I do not for a moment believe you to be heartless and unfeeling. However, if I had never read anything from you except your posts on this thread I would find it very easy to believe you thought the fact that the Catholic Church was being asked to account for this a greater tragedy than the deaths of those children.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
We have had enough discussion in the past, Chesterbelloc, that I know you love your church and I do not for a moment believe you to be heartless and unfeeling. However, if I had never read anything from you except your posts on this thread I would find it very easy to believe you thought the fact that the Catholic Church was being asked to account for this a greater tragedy than the deaths of those children.
Well, I thank you for that, Organ Builder - sincerely.
But the fact is that I came into this thread late, not with an instinctive attitude to defend the Church right-or-wrong, but only when I had reason to question the overwhelming consensus. Also, to question what we really know about what happened at Tuam. I did that. That has been my role here so far. I have said not a word in defense of the happenings, whatever they were.
For the avoidance of all doubt, I will say what I attributed to the Archbishop of Dublin: something terribly amiss appears to have happened at Tuam. Further, I cannot believe that the representatives of the Church who ran this home can be wholly blameless for that.
But, after the shit stirred up by fallacious and/or speculative reports masquerading as facts in the media and online here, I will not jump on the bandwagon of breast-beating (my own or those of others) when I have no real way of knowing what happened, or how, or why, or by whom. Not even to make Catholics look good in the eyes of their critics.
Let the truth come out and there will be time enough for condemnation.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Below, excerpt from an NYT article: quote:
“We didn’t want to bring any attention to those little babies,” said Anne Collins, a member of the committee that has tried to raise money for a plaque at the site. “But if you buried your dog in the back garden, you would want it marked, and that’s all we wanted.”
[Hostly edit to remove most of the lengthy quote, entirely to avoid potential copyright infringement issues - it's all in the link]
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
[ 11. June 2014, 09:14: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joanne P
Of course the community knew of the high death rate. It's hard not to notice when one child at your school dies every week, but the local children were told not to mix with the kids from the home and were encouraged to bully them.
Many of the children in Catholic institutions did not attend local schools, and some of them received very little education.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
I'm digging up an old thread, but I thought people who had participated in it might like to read this AP News . "Correction" would be too generous a word to use of the article imo.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Thanks Triple T
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Thank you, Father - beat me to it.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I'm digging up an old thread, but I thought people who had participated in it might like to read this AP News . "Correction" would be too generous a word to use of the article imo.
Most interesting - thanks.
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
But as to Brendan O'Neill's notoriety as an atrocity denier, I admit that I knew nothing about that whatsoever, having previously only glanced at his wiki entry. But if he is, the notoriety of it is not so very notorious as to make it into his profile there.
[tangent]It's fairly well known that the first question to ask anyone who was associated with Living Marxism/ Spiked et. al. "is what did you deny during the Bosnian War daddy?" That said, it's not always obvious what revolutionary groupscules these people were before they headed towards right wing contrarianism and the right-wing media have always been prepared to give their new found mates carte blanche with the dear old oblivion and indeminity with alacrity. I feel fairly sure that if Mr O'Neil's politics were somewhere in the region of, say, Mr Owen Jones the likes of, say, Mr Damian Thompson might work the whole "Slobo, much maligned bit" into the conversation from time to time instead of giving him a platform. Just sayin'. But none of the buggers are household names and they have gone strangely silent about the erstwhile Yugoslav Civil War since ITN successfully sued them for libel, so it's not the kind of thing one picks up automatically.
Quite why the right-wing media has decided to run a kind of Operation Paperclip for the benefit of people who spent the eighties complaining that the Socialist Workers Party were the continuation of Mrs Thatcher by other means and the nineties banging the drum for Greater Serb Chauvinism has never been quite clear to me. Unless one can attribute a serious heuristic value to the statement: "They are all fucking cunts" which, whilst lacking a certain elegance does have the merit of tallying with a certain number of the known facts. [/tangent]
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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