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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Cashless Busses
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Copied from TICTH:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink
Idiot companies sidelining the poor, intellectually impaired and homeless even further because they can't see further than the ends of their own noses.
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...
Oyster cards are very widely available - from the machines in tube stations and newsagents even if the counters don't exist. Cash fares on the buses and Tube are weighted to make it cheaper to have cards (Bus: £2.40 cash, £1.45 on Oyster, Tube Zone 1 fare £4.70 cash, £2.20 on Oyster). Day travel cards are available from all stations too - from the machines that are pretty much everywhere, and accept cash, and those are at Oyster rates.
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Idiot companies sidelining the poor, intellectually impaired and homeless even further because they can't see further than the ends of their own noses.
They're not alone. New York City subways and the Los Angeles metro are cash-free (one can still use cash on the buses, however). You have to purchase a card from a vending machine to use in the turnstiles. LA's work pretty well, but NY's are notorious for having to be "swiped" multiple times before the turnstile recognizes them.
And in both cities, senior citizen reduced fare cards must be specially applied for. Fine for residents, but what about tourists?
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink
They require organisational skills, and being able to manage a level of abstract concept. Crosspost
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
And in both cities, senior citizen reduced fare cards must be specially applied for. Fine for residents, but what about tourists?
Perhaps the cities feel (not necessarily unreasonably) that people who can afford to be tourists are not those in most need of a senior citizen discount? Plus, of course, tourists don't vote.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
They require organisational skills, and being able to manage a level of abstract concept. Crosspost
More organisational skills are required to ensure you always have change for the bus. People with disabilities can get a concessionary pass, so they don't need to pay. This has been the case for quite a while, and it makes organising travel a lot easier.
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
They require organisational skills, and being able to manage a level of abstract concept. Crosspost
More organisational skills are required to ensure you always have change for the bus. People with disabilities can get a concessionary pass, so they don't need to pay. This has been the case for quite a while, and it makes organising travel a lot easier.
It depends on the person, and I know many of my clients who would not do well with this system.
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...
Buses are free on the concessionary passes, disabled, elderly, children under 15 - just need showing on entry. They just have to carry a card. And if someone begged for a fare I'd buy them an Oyster with enough cash on it more willingly than I'd give them cash for drugs or alcohol.
quote:
Fineline
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It depends on the person, and I know many of my clients who would not do well with this system.
What, they'd prefer to pay for their bus fare than have a free pass that they just swipe? I work with teenagers with severe learning disabilities, many of whom don't understand money, but they can generally grasp that their card with their photo on is to be shown on the bus.
I also have a free bus pass, because of being on the autism spectrum, and I can't conceive how paying with money is easier. Your bus pass is always in your purse, same as your money is, but unlike your money, you don't have to count it out, or make sure you have enough beforehand. I don't have an intellectual disability, but I do have difficulty with organisation, and also I don't have much money, and the bus pass makes things a lot easier for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Huia
I hope no one even thinks about bringing
a similar system in here. What happens if someone loses their card?
I mislaid my concession card last week (it's normally chained to my backpack, so I haven't done that in ages), but at least it was only a kilometre away, so I could walk.
Huia
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
What, they'd prefer to pay for their bus fare than have a free pass that they just swipe? I work with teenagers with severe learning disabilities, many of whom don't understand money, but they can generally grasp that their card with their photo on is to be shown on the bus.
Money in the hand is a tangible thing that people can understand and relate to. It's a finite thing: you spend it, it's gone. A swipe card has a less visible effect, if you know what I mean, and if it's something that you have to keep topping up with credit, this is where difficulties can start.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Sorry slightly mixed up mine and Fineline's quotes in the middle, perhaps a host - whilst disembowelling me with a rusty farm implement - would condescend to correct my screw up.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
My experience working with students with learning difficulties is similar to Fineline's - a card they swipe is much easier to understand than money. The lad with severe learning difficulties has free bus travel but not tube, but as he still can't identify coins to pay for a hot chocolate in McDonald's after 9 months of trying, he couldn't cope with paying for the buses. But he can swipe in with his Oyster.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It is people within a particular ability range, and with a specific pattern of difficulties, who will be fucked over by this.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Are these people who are likely to be otherwise able to cope with being out, on their own, making their way around on public transport? I don't know but if they are not, then a payment method they have problems with doesn't make much difference, does it?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
There three main groups I'd be concerned for.
People who buy pre-pay then lose it, are induced to give it to someone else etc. they then don't have the money to rebuy for the rest of the week.
People who struggle with abstraction, and therefore have there money divided up into envelopes etc to help them understand budgetting etc. Don't cope well when you put anything on cards because it is difficult to follow, and they don't understand why they have less money than they were expecting and become upset and agitated. Often with that goes poor memory, so is more difficult to explain reduction in monies they don't see. This can result significant challenging behaviour.
People who are relatively able and don't have 1-to-1 support when out and about, but are very disorganised. This maybe due to LD, mental health problems, alcohol abuse, drug dependent etc. Buying tickets in advance requires pre-planning, both to get the tickets and to known roughly where you are going.
[ 06. July 2014, 22:02: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Is there any experience from elsewhere that could be used? Cashless public transport has been on the go elsewhere for many years.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The people who are induced to give their cards up are equally induced to give their money to others.
This isn't just transport, it's everything that's going cashless.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Cards are profoundly annoying for occasional or one-time users. Do these cards cost anything?
The cards in Melbourne do. I think it cost about $7 for the card itself, on top of the actual fare amounts you can load into it.
I go to Melbourne maybe a couple of times a year. I have to remember to take the card with me each time if I don't want to cough up another $7. Getting an extra $7 out of every visitor/tourist to Melbourne is a nice windfall, I'd say.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
But you have to be able to get to a shop to buy your travel card, and that's not always easy for some. The nearest shops for us are about 1.5 km away, and there would be many, many people in the Sydney metropolitan region who have much further than that. The train station is much closer, so we can get train tickets there from a machine, even if there's no attendant. But an older lady was complaining at the supermarket the other day that she had no travel card, had to get to the shop to buy one, her car was not working, she could not afford a taxi and so she had had to go around her neighbours to get a lift to the shopping centre. She would not be alone - there are several retirement villages around here that are 5 km or more from shops.
[ 06. July 2014, 23:15: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The people who are induced to give their cards up are equally induced to give their money to others.
This isn't just transport, it's everything that's going cashless.
There's a difference between conned out of a day's travel money, and a week or more prepaid though.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
But you have to be able to get to a shop to buy your travel card, and that's not always easy for some.
Yes. This is definitely another bugbear if you're not from somewhere.
I don't really have a problem with the kind of tickets you can get at a train station that last for 3 days or 5 days or 7 (they always seem to be an odd number).
But that's generally trains where you can pick those kinds of things up. Having to go somewhere other than the place you get the transport is much more of a challenge. I remember having some doubt and uncertainty trying to figure out where to get a pass for the San Francisco bus system. First I had to hunt down information about where I could buy one. Then, while I did find a supermarket nearby, it didn't feel like I could ask them detailed questions about which ticket was best for my needs, because they were just a supermarket, not a dedicated ticket seller. I did get something, but it was pretty much based on asking for the simplest thing and they had it.
I tell you what, travelling from city to city for 3 months really opens your eyes as to how different these systems can be, and how they're not all alike. One of the many reasons I liked Boston was that the public transport was a breeze to understand. Not only was everything incredibly well signposted, but identifying the ticket types and grabbing the one I wanted took about 30 seconds.
Whereas Washington DC ticketing was mystifying, and I was very grateful the friends I was staying with lent me a pass. Admittedly in that case it may have had something to do with the system being in the middle of a changeover.
[ 06. July 2014, 23:27: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I'll double check this in the morning to see if it is universal, but in my experience normal adult Oyster cards can be bought from many, if not all, the ticket machines in stations.
The cards cost £5, but you can return them and get a refund when you leave. At ticket offices in stations.
And the row about ticket offices closing - what that means at my local station is that there is someone standing between the ticket office and platform to solve problems, rather than locked in behind a desk only dealing with queries that come to the window.
One time users can buy a day travel card that costs the same as using an Oyster - off peak capped price for travel in London - it's £8.30 or thereabouts.
[ 06. July 2014, 23:42: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Cards are profoundly annoying for occasional or one-time users. Do these cards cost anything?
The cards in Melbourne do. I think it cost about $7 for the card itself, on top of the actual fare amounts you can load into it.
You have to pay a deposit of £5 now for an Oyster card but you can get that back if you hand back the card. I have been assured by a rather disorganised friend that the system does work; every now and then she hands in all the cards she has bought when she left the usual one at home and gets the money back.
It is annoying that it is not possible to buy or top up Oyster cards at bus stops (or even bus stations) but there is generally a little newsagent or general store nearby where one can. As this only affects London, the concept of being 5km from the nearest shop does not apply.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
* dons asbestos under garments *
The poor can just suck it up. And I mean poor in a 21st century, 1st world sense of the word.
The poor boarding and then fucking around figuring out how to pay their fare out of a handful of paper money and coins—while the rest of the poor stand outside waiting to board, so that they can fumble with their own sad fistfuls of cash—add about 10 to 15 minutes to a 22-minute bus trip between home and church. That is 20 to 30 minutes a day not spent at that second job, slaving to make the rent.
I'm rich—in a global, 21st century sort of way—so I drive a single-occupancy, petrol-powered, internal combustion engine contraption instead of being a good little green doobie saving the planet, riding public transportation, as I would rather.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
* dons asbestos under garments *
The poor can just suck it up. And I mean poor in a 21st century, 1st world sense of the word.
You know, fuck you, you self righteous little bitch. Do you actually know any poor people? That the there are poor who do not suffer the ravages of the worst of the 3rd world does not mean they do not suffer.
"Oh, you lost a limb do to infection? At least you do not have leprosy, so quit your whinging!"
Ignorant, self inflated tosser.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Do you have an argument? Or, are you contented with exerting yourself only so much as to call me names?
And yes, I live in a neighborhood that's been destroyed by arson, municipal neglect, financial redlining, urban 'renewal', crime, and poverty. Double murders on my front porch.
So much for the ad hominem. Got anything else?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
]It is annoying that it is not possible to buy or top up Oyster cards at bus stops (or even bus stations) but there is generally a little newsagent or general store nearby where one can. As this only affects London, the concept of being 5km from the nearest shop does not apply.
Fog in Channel - Continent cut off.
This thread has developed along much broader lines than the use of cards in London - see for example the post from Honest Ron Bacardi.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Do you have an argument? Or, are you contented with exerting yourself only so much as to call me names?
I made an argument, though brief. If you cannot be bothered to read for comprehension, why should I expand? Perhaps you can find a tutor to help work out the meaning of the more difficult words.
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
And yes, I live in a neighborhood that's been destroyed by arson, municipal neglect, financial redlining, urban 'renewal', crime, and poverty. Double murders on my front porch.
From your post, it does not seem to have taught you anything.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
* dons asbestos under garments *
The poor can just suck it up. And I mean poor in a 21st century, 1st world sense of the word.
The poor boarding and then fucking around figuring out how to pay their fare out of a handful of paper money and coins—while the rest of the poor stand outside waiting to board, so that they can fumble with their own sad fistfuls of cash—add about 10 to 15 minutes to a 22-minute bus trip between home and church. That is 20 to 30 minutes a day not spent at that second job, slaving to make the rent.
I'm rich—in a global, 21st century sort of way—so I drive a single-occupancy, petrol-powered, internal combustion engine contraption instead of being a good little green doobie saving the planet, riding public transportation, as I would rather.
Oh seriously? What?
Jeez, I am so tempted to launch into an absolute diatribe of rage right now at you. But I am not going to I am going to point my not inconsiderable ire at the attitude which you possess because really I have to remind myself that PEOPLE have worth even when their behaviour and speech is beyond consideration.
So what you're actually saying is that relative inequality means fuck all. That the unrest and social breakdown and frankly disgusting lack of humanity that our corporations and wealthy people display towards those of us who are not is actually a good thing because it will encourage us all to be More Like Them. More selfish, more dismissive, more greedy in a desperate effort to claw our bloody way up a greased pole. I call bullshit.
What you're saying is you'd rather be selfish and focus only on your tiny little sphere of existence than have to inconvenience yourself with the struggles and needs of other people even in the context of a fucking BUS TRIP? Fuck me I hope I am never lying bleeding on the side of the road when you're in traffic!
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Is there any experience from elsewhere that could be used? Cashless public transport has been on the go elsewhere for many years.
When I lived in Canada, there was a system of buying packs of ten bus tickets - small pieces of card that you put into a slot when you get on the bus. I actually found it a lot easier than using cash. Yes, you do have to buy the tickets beforehand - but that's easier than making sure you have ten lots of change beforehand.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
There three main groups I'd be concerned for.
People who buy pre-pay then lose it, are induced to give it to someone else etc. they then don't have the money to rebuy for the rest of the week.
People who struggle with abstraction, and therefore have there money divided up into envelopes etc to help them understand budgetting etc. Don't cope well when you put anything on cards because it is difficult to follow, and they don't understand why they have less money than they were expecting and become upset and agitated. Often with that goes poor memory, so is more difficult to explain reduction in monies they don't see. This can result significant challenging behaviour.
People can surely just as easily lose money, give away money, etc. Money is a very abstract concept itself.
And if someone has money put into envelopes, why can't they also have bus tickets put into envelopes? Although if they have a learning disability, then they are eligible for a free bus pass. And this doesn't involve topping up or losing money - it's free. Which is incredibly helpful for people on a low income. And is incredibly easy to use. No abstract concepts required - you don't even need language as you do with bus fares. You simply learn the action of showing it to the bus driver.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The poor boarding and then fucking around figuring out how to pay their fare out of a handful of paper money and coins—while the rest of the poor stand outside waiting to board, so that they can fumble with their own sad fistfuls of cash—add about 10 to 15 minutes to a 22-minute bus trip between home and church. That is 20 to 30 minutes a day not spent at that second job, slaving to make the rent.
Actually, for those of us on the autism spectrum, who do get easily overwhelmed and fumble a lot on the spot, which can be very embarrassing and cause a lot of impatience in the bus driver and other passengers, this is one reason why having a free bus pass is a godsend.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Cashless public transport is a shit idea. What if on the spur of the moment you need to use public transport and all you've got is cash?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
In London you can use the new bank cards to pay on entry and exit to buses and Tube stations, just by swiping. Or you buy an Oyster card and charge it with money regularly. This can be done automatically when the amount on the card drops below a certain amount or at machines or in newsagents or ...
It's no different to having to buy ticket packs in Paris (or Canada)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Cashless public transport is a shit idea. What if on the spur of the moment you need to use public transport and all you've got is cash?
And what if on the spur of the moment you need to use the bus and you don't have cash? Or you only have a twenty pound note, so you need to find somewhere to change it (which generally involves making an unwanted purchase, which is fine if you're comfortably off, but not when you're on a very low income). This is a very common occurrence. Obtaining money (and specifically change) is no simpler than buying a set of bus tickets. In fact, in my experience, it tends to be a lot more complicated.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
I'm back briefly to say this:- In my little metropolis in the provinces, the transit cards are free for the asking at any train station.
- That blows for folk who don't live near one, which is mostly racial minorities and students. In the first instance, this is a result of systemic racism.
- 5£ for a card is just poor incentive planning. As someone upthread said there's more than enough from abandoned fares to make up for it.
- Even a charge as low as 1.5€ (Lisbon) is stupid.
- No one has brought up the insidious way these cards have abetted the pernicious loss of privacy.
- The outrageous increase in dwell time necessary for folk to fumble with cash doesn't affect just my trip time, it also drags down system performance, pushing up costs and discouraging discretionary users needed to make transit systems work well.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Cashless public transport is a shit idea. What if on the spur of the moment you need to use public transport and all you've got is cash?
And what if on the spur of the moment you need to use the bus and you don't have cash? Or you only have a twenty pound note, so you need to find somewhere to change it (which generally involves making an unwanted purchase, which is fine if you're comfortably off, but not when you're on a very low income). This is a very common occurrence. Obtaining money (and specifically change) is no simpler than buying a set of bus tickets. In fact, in my experience, it tends to be a lot more complicated.
Eh?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
E-this, e-that. Why does everything have to be electronic? I’ve had to replace my season ticket no less than eight times this year, yes, eight, because the magnetic strip kept going, or it accidentally came into contact with a mobile phone, or something. I’m really hoping my ninth season ticket will last a bit longer.
You get no real sense of the value of money if you never see it. It’s far too easy to transfer units on a screen from one location to another with internet banking (which I don’t trust anyway) or shopping. It brings it home to you a lot more when you actually go to the bank/cashpoint and take out notes and coins. And anything e- is hackable.
[ 07. July 2014, 07:16: Message edited by: Ariel ]
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Cashless public transport is a shit idea. What if on the spur of the moment you need to use public transport and all you've got is cash?
Simple, go to a local newsagent or convenience store where you can top up your Oyster card.
Oh, hang on a sec. There's only one shop within walking distance that does Oyster and their machine is broken. The man behind the counter helpfully gives you a list of other Oyster outlets, but all of them are a fucking bus ride away.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Cashless public transport is a shit idea. What if on the spur of the moment you need to use public transport and all you've got is cash?
And what if on the spur of the moment you need to use the bus and you don't have cash? Or you only have a twenty pound note, so you need to find somewhere to change it (which generally involves making an unwanted purchase, which is fine if you're comfortably off, but not when you're on a very low income). This is a very common occurrence. Obtaining money (and specifically change) is no simpler than buying a set of bus tickets. In fact, in my experience, it tends to be a lot more complicated.
Eh?
I guess Fineline, like me, lives in an area where you have to pay the exact money for your bus fare and change is not given. I've certainly been in the situation of needing to get a bus, not having the correct change of £3.80 and only that £20.00 note to last me for the rest of the month. And annoying local shop keepers by using £20.00 for a 50p purchase to get the change.
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Posts: 2013 | From: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: Dec 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Cashless system in London means they are allowing that one bus ride before topping up, so you can get to the next machine, in theory
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
Actually, change is given, but if you only have a twenty pound note, and it's the beginning of the route, the bus driver won't have change. And this is quite common - not just where I live. Out of curiosity, how many people arguing against a cashless system actually use the bus as their method of transportation, every day, and don't have a car or much money? Because what I'm saying really isn't so hard to grasp if you do. And if you don't, you can't speak on behalf of those of us who do - those of who actually do have to survive on a very low income, and also manage a disability.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
And buses where I live need cash, no convenient system for everything as there is in London. If you take the bus operated by one company into town, you have to choose whether to buy a (much cheaper) return and wait for the return bus from that operator, or buy two singles and not be tied to that route. So two lots of the right change.
Pensioners and disabled have concession cards wherever, so free travel.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The fact that you and people you know cope is great. But you are not everybody. I have worked for years with people with intellectual and mental problems, and I have met and worked with those who don't.
People who can not manage basic bank accounts, living entirely independently, but too paranoid to trust in them People who could not be persuaded to have a bus pass because it had to have a photograph of their face on, and they found this unbearable because of their dysmorphic disorder. People with a learning disability significant enough to have support staff, who would not have a bus pass because it involved saying they had a disability. People who can not carry their own scratchcards over night, because holding something potentially worth so much means they can't sleep.
Then there are people with somekinds of pica, most commonly will eat paper and papery things, but not metal coins. Those with Prada-WillinSydrome maybe able enought to be supported out into the community, and still have this problem. Homeless with unmedicated bipolar disorder, choosing to live outside the benefits system and busk for the days money, or whenever he runs out. Impulsive reaction to not having a ticket on him - when high is to fare skip. I could go on for pages.
My problem is not with oyster cards, my problem is with reducing the flexibility of the system. In the same way that councils putting all their services online, stuffs up those who can not use computer based services. I have had to get someone into a clinic appoitnment to put in a request to the council to do something about the mould in his flat before now, because there was literally no other way of requesting maintainance than online.
He couldn't, for example, send a letter.
[ 07. July 2014, 08:36: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
And buses where I live need cash, no convenient system for everything as there is in London. If you take the bus operated by one company into town, you have to choose whether to buy a (much cheaper) return and wait for the return bus from that operator, or buy two singles and not be tied to that route. So two lots of the right change.
Pensioners and disabled have concession cards wherever, so free travel.
More or less the same here. The main town operator does not give change on the buses, just a credit ticket which can be used later or exchanged back for cash at the bus station. (Most journeys begin and end there, so not too much of a problem). Prepaid smart cards are also available on this operator.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
How is remembering to take your card any different from remembering to take cash?
I would be happy to have a cashless world, never mind busses! At the moment I have to remember cards and cash - in a cashless world, just the card would be needed.
What happened to using phones to pay?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Cash is anonymous. Also, the more and more we go to using invisible money the more and more I become convinced that this money doesn't actually exist at all. It's just one big ruse.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I do not think those with mental difficulties when they are able to get a free pass will be worse off but ...
There are also those whose life is chaotic. Chaotic lives occur at all levels in society, but the lower your income the more likely circumstances are to push you towards chaotic living. When you get to the financial state when you are making decisions on whether to pay for a B&B or get a hot meal, how are you going to manage to pre-pay for a travel card for journeys you may not make. Yet travelling by bus might be the only way to get in at a hostel. Go one level up, imagined the housed family, with debts maybe due to family illness, where any money they get is spoken for three times over and it is a constant matter of "How little can I pay Peter so I can pay something to Paul?". Income is not a problem, outgoings are. Or the family with an unstable alcoholic like my great grandfather, who if his wage was not immediately got off him when he got it, would drink the lot.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
The Guardian
quote:
Research shows that 99% of customers use Oyster, prepaid tickets, contactless payment cards or concessionary tickets. TfL says the transition should be trouble free because passengers who have run out of credit on their Oyster card are now allowed to make one more journey.
I am not sure why we should continue to operate a system that only 1% of customers use.
The vast majority of visitors to London arrive at an airport or train station - both places where Oyster cards are sold. I would suspect nearly all people who take the Tube from Heathrow or St Pancras purchase a Travelcard for the period they will spend in the city.
Many British people will already have contactless debit/credit cards in which case they don't need cash or an Oystercard at all. My bank has replaced all of my previous cards with contactless ones over the past two years.
There are also buses in London that already did not accept cash because they travel peak rush hour routes and cash payments are a time waster - I take one every morning to work.
Much ado about nothing.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It doesn't matter what system you have, if it's the ONLY system it's going to cause people trouble.
Way back in 2000, when visiting my best friend in the UK, I had to pay for petrol a number of times because he already basically lived in a cashless world and was flummoxed by petrol stations further out in the countryside that wouldn't let him just swipe his credit card in the pump.
The most obvious issue with card systems is that they lock your money into that system. Once you've got money on your bus/train card, you can't use that money for anything else even if you aren't going to catch a bus/train for the next 6 months (usually the case for me in my home city - I really only catch the bus when my car is being serviced).
Cash is portable. Or it's supposed to be - it's supposed to be usable for any system of exchange for goods and services. Some part of me is actually now wondering about the legality of refusing to accept cash... we got into all this business about the definition of "legal tender" in the thread on Scottish independence, I seem to remember it's actually a very narrow circumstance where the definition is actually relevant.
We could of course bypass all of this by just radiochipping people and scanning them as they enter the bus. What a pity this raises enormous privacy concerns and sounds a bit too much like the Mark of the Beast in Revelation...
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It doesn't matter what system you have, if it's the ONLY system it's going to cause people trouble.
The 1% of people who currently use cash on buses?
Surely the numbers mean something in this situation.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Surely the numbers mean something in this situation.
That depends entirely on whether one is running a business or a service.
If it's a business, then it makes sense to get rid of those annoying, expensive customers (although I don't quite grasp why getting rid of cash would actually save money).
If it's a service, then it doesn't make sense to deny some people the ability to make use of the service.
Everything these days is very much headed towards the 'business' approach. There are cases where this makes sense, but also cases where it doesn't. To my mind, public transport is borderline. A lot of it's been privatised these days, but there is also an argument that public transport is a fairly vital part of enabling some people to be active participants in society. There are also many large cities in the world where it's fairly important from an overall perspective to encourage as many people as possible to use public transport in preference to private.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Cashless system in London means they are allowing that one bus ride before topping up, so you can get to the next machine, in theory
All well and good, but if you've already used that free ride to get home from the pub the night before because you didn't realise your card was so low, you're buggered.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Following what orfeo said, businesses are run entirely to maximize profit, not to benefit the customer. Any notion of service is a joke today - I said this recently to an assistant in Boots, and he looked very vexed. What irritates me is when they try to con us that it's for our benefit. Yeah, and slices of bacon can and will fly.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
In my city we just transferred to a system such that everybody (single use all the way up to monthly pass) uses a plastic card you have to buy except people who pay extra for the privilege to use cash. I'm glad they still can use cash because besides the tourists--who I don't really mind paying 25 or 50 cents extra per ride if they can't be bothered to buy a card--cash users here are often the very poor. They are the people who can't afford that extra five dollars to buy a card even if it will get refunded to them later.
On the other hand, until very recently when my delightful (read fucking greedy) city sold the rights to V to make these cards, people could buy the permanent auto-refillable card,s or use temporary self-refillable free cards, or use cash for a 25/50 cent fee. The conclusion is that now the poor are screwed over for the politicians and the rest of us have to make multiple calls to V to get them to sort out our transportation. (Bullfrog and I have made at least 5 such calls in the past six months.)
ETA: If it's a city service that I'm subsidizing with my taxes, it's damn well supposed to be run like a service at least for residents of the city!
[ 07. July 2014, 13:17: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Cashless system in London means they are allowing that one bus ride before topping up, so you can get to the next machine, in theory
All well and good, but if you've already used that free ride to get home from the pub the night before because you didn't realise your card was so low, you're buggered.
Then you could top-up online at home.
Unless you are reluctant to register your card for privacy concerns. Heck, you can even arrange it so that your card is automatically topped up whenever it dips below £10. I accept that that could cause problems for those watching every penny but it makes life easier for those who are more solvent but disorganised.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It doesn't matter what system you have, if it's the ONLY system it's going to cause people trouble.
The 1% of people who currently use cash on buses?
Surely the numbers mean something in this situation.
One percent of six million is a lot of people.
FWIW, incidence of - for example - schizophrenia is approximately 1%, learning disability (as opposed to learning difficulties) would affect approximately 2.5% of the population. I am asserting that it is a subset of these kinds of groups who will be affected - but in a densely populated area that is going to be a high absolute number, in the thousands.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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