homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Cashless Busses (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Cashless Busses
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707

 - Posted      Profile for seekingsister   Email seekingsister   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
One percent of six million is a lot of people.[/URL]

60,000 people out of a population of 8.3m and 15m annual tourists - is not a lot. And that doesn't even include commuters from Essex/Kent/Hertfordshire/etc who take a bus after their train into town.

I hope that vulnerable people are cared for in regards to travel but it is a bit strange for people to be so upset about the loss of something that hardly anyone uses.

I grew up near New York City, where a bus ride ($2.50) must be paid for by:
- exact change in coins - no bills accepted. The coins are deposited into a machine that does not require driver time or effort. If you don't have change you are not riding the bus.

- prepaid Metro Card/paper ticket purchased at a subway station or machine (i.e. not on the bus)

Just as a comparison.

Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
60,000 is a lot of folk though - and they matter. Public transport is meant to be a public service, not just a profit making exercise.

(And that is just per day, not everyone travels daily.)

[ 07. July 2014, 13:51: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631

 - Posted      Profile for St Deird   Author's homepage   Email St Deird   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
How is remembering to take your card any different from remembering to take cash?

I would be happy to have a cashless world, never mind busses! At the moment I have to remember cards and cash - in a cashless world, just the card would be needed.

What happened to using phones to pay?

As someone with ADHD, I find cash much easier.

Why? Because to check if I have enough money on my card, I have to:
1) get to a station
2) not be running horribly late for a train
3) notice the card-checking machine
4) check how much money I have left
5) remember that number

Or...
1) go to the public transport website
2) somehow track down my password for using the system
3) log in and check how much money I have left
4) remember that number

...all of which will take me at least a day per step (owing to the aforementioned ADHD), and is increasingly unlikely to be done at all. So I won't realise that my card is out of money until I try using it and it fails.


On the other hand, if I want to check if I have enough CASH to take public transport, I have to:
1) open my wallet

For those of us with chronic disorganisation and executive function issues, cash systems can be very helpful. I use cash for as many things as possible - that way, I don't have to keep track of 20 ever-more-complicated electronic systems; I just have to have a stack of notes in my handbag.

--------------------
They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.

Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707

 - Posted      Profile for seekingsister   Email seekingsister   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
60,000 is a lot of folk though - and they matter. Public transport is meant to be a public service, not just a profit making exercise.

Why do you assume they are all disadvantaged by the change? The Oyster fare is cheaper.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not all of them no, but I believe thousands will be - and it isn't just about price, it is about usability for a given individual and what that does to their independence.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
St Deird, I have ADHD and executive function difficulties too - which is why I asked the question!

I don't live in London or use Oyster cards but I use my debit card for everything and struggle to remember to have enough cash on me for daily needs (the milkman nearly always gets a cheque as I so often lack the right amount)

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707

 - Posted      Profile for seekingsister   Email seekingsister   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
As someone with ADHD, I find cash much easier.

Why? Because to check if I have enough money on my card, I have to:
1) get to a station
2) not be running horribly late for a train
3) notice the card-checking machine
4) check how much money I have left
5) remember that number

Or...
1) go to the public transport website
2) somehow track down my password for using the system
3) log in and check how much money I have left
4) remember that number


A debit card with contactless only requires the user to remember if they have cash in their bank account. Which they'd have to do if they went to the ATM to get cash for the bus journey as well.

Am I the only one whose bank has replaced my debit cards with contactless ones?

Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What is it about people having different individual needs, with different optimal arrangements that is so hard to understand ?

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

 - Posted      Profile for Pyx_e     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As an ex London transport employee can I just add the main reason for all this is to stop fraud by employees.

I heard the most outrageous stories when I worked for them. One employee's bank rang up an asked why LT were paying him when he was dead. He had not touched his bank account for 15 years because of the cash he stole from ticket collecting.

The biggest dent on druggies and drunkards will on those in uniform.

Could not be like it myself.

P

--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oyster cards are plastic ~ like credit or bank cards.
You choose if you want it registered or not. Worth it for season tickets orto get statements for expenses.
You can set up your account to automatically top up when the balance drops below a certainm amount.
You can cash go cards and buy new.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707

 - Posted      Profile for seekingsister   Email seekingsister   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is it about people having different individual needs, with different optimal arrangements that is so hard to understand ?

I don't agree with expense and delays to bus service for a very small minority of users. There are ways to accommodate those users that do not require keeping the entire infrastructure for cash payments in place as is.

I have missed a train home in the evening after a long day at work because a group of 10 American teenagers all wanted to pay for a bus in cash without exact change. I'm sure on that bus were also mothers whose children were waiting to be picked up, people trying to get to their own night shift of work, etc.

If someone can clearly explain to me how vulnerable people are going to made significantly worse of by this, I'm willing to hear it.

If someone has mental/physical illness, no bank account, no internet, and no ability to get to a shop that sells Oyster top up, then the bus system is not in their top 10 problems. They need help from the NHS, social services, etc. far before they need to pay cash on a bus.

Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In an ideal world tax would be higher and utilities like public transport would be free at the point of use - even if the government insisted on competitive tender from private companies for the contract - thereby solving all of these issues.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810

 - Posted      Profile for Antisocial Alto   Email Antisocial Alto   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Any notion of service is a joke today - I said this recently to an assistant in Boots, and he looked very vexed.

Of course he did. You whined about a problem to a person who is one of the victims of that problem. Some asshole in upper management (who probably hardly sets foot in the store) cut the staffing to save money, and thanks to you and a thousand like you, that poor chump on the sales floor gets blamed for it ten times a day.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
In an ideal world tax would be higher and utilities like public transport would be free at the point of use - even if the government insisted on competitive tender from private companies for the contract - thereby solving all of these issues.

A broadd stateement, but I think that back in the forties Myles NagCopaleen/ Flann O'Brien (who was in his 'day job' a fairly senior civil servant) proposed that Dublin buses could be made free at the point of use by raising, I think, a halfpenny rate- something neglioble, anyway.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is it about people having different individual needs, with different optimal arrangements that is so hard to understand ?

If someone can clearly explain to me how vulnerable people are going to made significantly worse of by this, I'm willing to hear it.

If someone has mental/physical illness, no bank account, no internet, and no ability to get to a shop that sells Oyster top up, then the bus system is not in their top 10 problems. They need help from the NHS, social services, etc. far before they need to pay cash on a bus.

Well then, I suggest you manage to persuade The government that it arranges not to mandate these people turn up to job centres once a month for pointless consultations about non-existent job opportunities because they are in the ESA "support group", Or stop the ATOS assessments at the arse end of nowhere for people whose functioning is not going to improve significantly, or consider paying higher rate mobility, not just to people who physically can't walk, so they can pay for taxies.

More social workers would help, so that not every sodding case is closed from active work back to annual review and reviewers aren't running planned caseloads of 70 to 100. And to stop pushing all social care to go generic so no-one has the specialist knowledge to manage complex presentations would help.

But actually, all council budgets are being cut. So this is not going to happen.

[ 07. July 2014, 14:52: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If I've understood this thread correctly (from a skim read) the complaint is on behalf of people who i) are unable to use a top-up card system and/or swipe card system but who can use money but ii) are able to navigate around a complex metropolitan area unaided (presumably reading maps, etc.).

How many people in London do we think fit this description?

Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, for starters, what makes you think you need to be able to use a map to use a bus. Currently you don't even need to be able to read.

You walk to the bus shelter at the end of your street and wait for the <insert bus number you have always used> and you give the man in the uniform the money you have counted and ask him to go to the <insert street name> where your mum lives and back. Then when you see the Tesco's on the corner of your mum's street, you press the red button. When the bus stops you get out, saying thank you to the bus driver like mum says you do, and walk to mum's house.

When the tesco's changes, or the bus number changes cos the routes change, or mum moves - it takes someone weeks / months of work to get you over your anxiety about the changes and being used to the new routine.

(In a good service, someone will have given you a what-to-do-if-you-get-lost plan and possibly a card to give to a stranger when you ask for help.)

[ 07. July 2014, 15:34: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
But basically, whatever happens, from time to time you're going to be buggered, aren't you?

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
But you wouldn't argue that bus routes and numbers shouldn't change, would you?

[X-posted with Albertus]

[ 07. July 2014, 15:35: Message edited by: Anglican't ]

Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That is a change within the same system.

Going cashless is a much bigger overall change that will permenantly exclude a number of groups of people who are already fucked over by life.

I am objecting to cashless, not arguing for cash only.

[ 07. July 2014, 15:45: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493

 - Posted      Profile for JoannaP   Email JoannaP   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If I've understood this thread correctly (from a skim read) the complaint is on behalf of people who i) are unable to use a top-up card system and/or swipe card system but who can use money but ii) are able to navigate around a complex metropolitan area unaided (presumably reading maps, etc.).

How many people in London do we think fit this description?

Not quite. We seem to be discussing people who are entitled to a card allowing them free bus travel but who, for various reasons, do not want one and would rather pay by the most expensive means possible instead.

There may also be some who prioritise privacy over convenience (and so will not register their Oyster card for automatic top-ups) and are unhappy about the consequences of their choice.

--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If I've understood this thread correctly (from a skim read) the complaint is on behalf of people who i) are unable to use a top-up card system and/or swipe card system but who can use money but ii) are able to navigate around a complex metropolitan area unaided (presumably reading maps, etc.).

How many people in London do we think fit this description?

Not quite. We seem to be discussing people who are entitled to a card allowing them free bus travel but who, for various reasons, do not want one and would rather pay by the most expensive means possible instead.

There may also be some who prioritise privacy over convenience (and so will not register their Oyster card for automatic top-ups) and are unhappy about the consequences of their choice.

Or *can't* use one effectively. Incidentally, re the example of dysmorphic disorder and paranoia, these are not conditions which can be meaningfully described as choices. Nor is a severe deficit in abstract thought, or bipolar disorder.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As a traveller to countries where I may not speak the language at all, normally it is somewhere in the vicinity of 10-30 mins to figure out how the transit works. The usual is arriving by plane or train and then needing to get where you're going to stay from the crowded station. I have not seen any city which does this well. There may be machines, but limited instructions, and usually posted right by the machine or on the machine's screen.

Thus, the usual drill involves (a) asking someone, who may tell you, help you or swindle you, or may suck air through their teeth and simply ignore you (b) simply ignoring others and delaying the locals by taking 4 times the amount of time to buy the card and charge it up. This usually involves starting a transaction on the machine and then cancelling it 2 or 3 times until you get it right. This is what we generally do.

While doing the above, usually you have had to haul all your luggage with you and your travelling companions must keep an eye on it and you because of thievery or worry about same.

My advice for cities with card-based transit: post the instructions for buying and using the cards on signs away from the machines themselves, and ask the public to be kind to each other. My advice for the traveller is to try to find out before arriving how transit works, and to hope that it is not changed from the website info.

[ 07. July 2014, 15:57: Message edited by: no prophet ]

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493

 - Posted      Profile for JoannaP   Email JoannaP   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:

There may also be some who prioritise privacy over convenience (and so will not register their Oyster card for automatic top-ups) and are unhappy about the consequences of their choice.

Or *can't* use one effectively. Incidentally, re the example of dysmorphic disorder and paranoia, these are not conditions which can be meaningfully described as choices. Nor is a severe deficit in abstract thought, or bipolar disorder.
DT in my second paragraph, I was thinking of those who have freely chosen to make such a decision, not those with disorders of any kind. I am well aware that paranoia etc. are not choices.

I confess I am slightly bemused by the concept of people who are eligible to get free transport but pay by cash instead; I accept that they exist but, as Anglican't said, I do not believe that there are very many of them.

--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Or *can't* use one effectively. Incidentally, re the example of dysmorphic disorder and paranoia, these are not conditions which can be meaningfully described as choices. Nor is a severe deficit in abstract thought, or bipolar disorder.

But how many people have one or more of these conditions to the extent that they are unable to cope with a cashless / card-only transport system but can cope with one that requires cash (including cash-only)? What numbers are we talking about?

At a guess, I'd say the numbers are very small. I don't want to exclude anyone from public transport but at the same time no-one has the right to a personally-tailored system.

Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:


My advice for cities with card-based transit: post the instructions for buying and using the cards on signs away from the machines themselves, and ask the public to be kind to each other. My advice for the traveller is to try to find out before arriving how transit works, and to hope that it is not changed from the website info.

But then you deprive the local hoteliers of the chance to offer 'airport pickup' at a 400% markup ...

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
[crosspost]

Small proportions, but large numbers - i.e. thousands of people.

And is it really that unreasonable to expect to be able to continue to pay for services with money ? After all, that is what the point of having a currency is, isn't it ? To have something universally exchangeable.

If Liverpool suddenly declared I could only buy stuff in its city limits if I bought and topped up tourist purchase card I'd be pretty pissed off.

[ 07. July 2014, 16:33: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I went by by bus 7 miles to a meeting this afternoon and 7 miles back.

Each journey took over one and a half hours.

I could almost have walked it more quickly.

The reason why it takes so long is because of people paying by cash.

Some of them don't even have their purses/wallets ready. Many root through handbags to find them

We spend more time at bus stops than we do travelling.

I visited most capital cities in Europe and have never had any problem buying some sort of bus card in a shop. No cash needed.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I always pay cash in supermarkets, and it amuses me sometimes to see someone with a credit/debit card taking ages to do the payment, whereas I'm through in about 5 seconds.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The coins in one grocery store chain here come out in a little unit at the end of the counter. It says on it that the cashier has no access to it. They hand the bills to you, the coins come out elsewhere, and the elderly particularly often leave them because they weren't handed to them.

Debit and card machines are the dominant way here these days for everything. Cash is rarer and rarer. No one writes cheques either.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:

I confess I am slightly bemused by the concept of people who are eligible to get free transport but pay by cash instead; I accept that they exist but, as Anglican't said, I do not believe that there are very many of them.

Are all the people in DT's group entitled to free travel on buses? That wasn't my impression.

A card which entitles you to free travel is far, far easier to manage than a card which holds value and must be regularly topped up. Most, but not all, of DT's objections refer to the latter case but not the former.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143

 - Posted      Profile for Fineline   Email Fineline   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
St Deird, do you take the bus regularly, and if so, can I ask how you deal with ensuring you have sufficient change in your purse each day? I can see how checking you've got sufficient funds on your card is fiddly, but I assume that is not a daily occurrence - once you've topped up with a couple of weeks of bus fare, you'd know you've got enough for a while, and could maybe put a reminder on your phone calendar to top up in a couple of weeks and plan to do it when you're going into town for other things (at least I find that a helpful strategy for executive dysfunction). But I have not yet found a simple way to ensure I always have change in my purse each day. I can only use my free bus pass after 9:30am, so I need to pay cash in the morning when I go to work. This means that every evening I have to remember to check I have £1.45 in my purse, and if I don't have it, I have to walk to a shop that has a cash machine, and after I've got cash, I need to change it, which means walking a mile to the supermarket, so I can buy something I actually need, and then remembering that what I buy needs to cost £8.50 or less if I am using a ten pound note. This can be incredibly tiring, especially after a busy day at work, and also having to remember to prepare a meal and eat it. Sometimes when I don't have change, I walk the four miles to work instead. So I'm wondering, as you also have executive dysfunction, how you find the cash system easy - what are your strategies?
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
As an ex London transport employee can I just add the main reason for all this is to stop fraud by employees.

Possibly. It doesn't stop the fact that the balkanization of proxy cash is a complete pain in the behind for the user, though.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

 - Posted      Profile for Dafyd   Email Dafyd   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I wonder if one could stage a protest as follows?

Board bus without paying. Get fined. Offer cash as legal tender to cover cost of fine. Argue in court that as you offered legal tender to pay the fine and it was refused; therefore, you owe TfL nothing.

I agree with orfeo and Jengie Jon. The people that this adversely affects are people who are living on the margin of financial viability and therefore can't afford to make upfront payments for services they may not immediately use. (It would help if we had a benefits system that wasn't trying to get everybody it could off its books on any possible technicality.)

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
[crosspost]

Small proportions, but large numbers - i.e. thousands of people.



In London alone?

quote:
And is it really that unreasonable to expect to be able to continue to pay for services with money ? After all, that is what the point of having a currency is, isn't it ?


You can in London - with a contactless payment card.

quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Board bus without paying. Get fined. Offer cash as legal tender to cover cost of fine. Argue in court that as you offered legal tender to pay the fine and it was refused; therefore, you owe TfL nothing.

I presume TfL has amended the conditions of carriage.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
[qb] [crosspost]

Small proportions, but large numbers - i.e. thousands of people.



In London alone?

Yes, definitely.

A subset of homeless people + a subset of mentally ill people + a subset of people with neurological injuries + a subset of people with alcohol & drugs problems + a subset of people with early stage dementia + a subset of people with ADHD + a subset of people learning disabilities + a subset of people with any combination of the above. These people routinely. Plus an ever changing group of people who become intoxicated and stranded late at night - and therefore vulnerable.

London has over eight million people in, what percentage of people do you think may fall into this combined group ?

quote:
quote:
And is it really that unreasonable to expect to be able to continue to pay for services with money ? After all, that is what the point of having a currency is, isn't it ?


You can in London - with a contactless payment card.

My apologies, actual physical units of currency, or cash, or whatever you want to call it.

[ 07. July 2014, 18:34: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
(FWIW, 1000 is 0.0125% of 8,000,000.)

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It occurs to me, Doublethink, that if there are disabled people (within the meaning of the Equality Act 2010) who are being disadvantaged by the ending of cash payments on London buses, the matter could be settled by bringing an action against Transport for London for breach of s15 of the Act (which deals with disability discrimination, and as you probably know defines it rather more widely than discrimination on the grounds of the other protected characteristics). TfL would presumably argue that the ending of cash payments was a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate end, and the courts could decide whether this was indeed the case.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

 - Posted      Profile for Spike   Email Spike   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I always pay cash in supermarkets, and it amuses me sometimes to see someone with a credit/debit card taking ages to do the payment, whereas I'm through in about 5 seconds.

I get really pissed off when waiting to get served in a pub and some pillock is paying for two drinks with a debit card. It really slows down the service. When I'm Prime Minister I'll ban the use of credit/debit cards in pubs.

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I get really pissed off when waiting to get served in a pub and some pillock is paying for two drinks with a debit card. It really slows down the service. When I'm Prime Minister I'll ban the use of credit/debit cards in pubs.

As long as you mandate that all pubs should have cash machines within easy reach, I'll support you all the way!

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh yes, absolutely. Or students in corner shops, buying a sandwich and a Coke on a debit card. You don't carry cash? Who do you think you are- the Queen?

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707

 - Posted      Profile for seekingsister   Email seekingsister   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I always pay cash in supermarkets, and it amuses me sometimes to see someone with a credit/debit card taking ages to do the payment, whereas I'm through in about 5 seconds.

I get really pissed off when waiting to get served in a pub and some pillock is paying for two drinks with a debit card. It really slows down the service. When I'm Prime Minister I'll ban the use of credit/debit cards in pubs.
We've got some real Luddites in the house here!

All of this is more reason to expand contactless debit cards which are the fastest way to pay AND accepted on London buses. It takes 2 seconds to pay with my debit card and no PIN required unless it's more than £20 - which two drinks at a pub would not reach, even in London!

Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
When contactless payments are universal I might, reluctantly, accept your point. Actually I have Wendell Berry moments when I'd like to do everything in cash so as not to leave a trail, but, alas, I don't think it's really possible.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:

I visited most capital cities in Europe and have never had any problem buying some sort of bus card in a shop. No cash needed.

In Germany you buy the ticket before you get on the bus (by cash or card) they are available in machines at bus stops and in shops, then you have it franked on a clipper machine on the bus. The driver isn't involved. If your ticket hasn't been franked you are fined heftily on the spot, if caught. You can buy as many tickets as you like in advance, or an Oyster type card.

Problem solved.

The buses are always on time and never have to hang around at stops.

Trust Germany to get it right.

[ 08. July 2014, 10:42: Message edited by: Boogie ]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Never mind Germany, I used to live in Plzeň in the Czech Republic and the system was the same. You could buy tickets from machines at the stops, or there was an Oyster-like card which you could also use (for some reason) to buy theatre tickets (shades of Alderman Foodbotham's Bradford Fine Arts and Tramways Committee). I could turn up at the tram stop a minute before it was due and be almost sure of arriving in work on time even though I had to change trams en route. That's right, a provincial town in a post-Communist state with a permanent political crisis can still outclass my home town.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

 - Posted      Profile for Jane R   Email Jane R   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Boogie:
quote:
In Germany you buy the ticket before you get on the bus (by cash or card) they are available in machines at bus stops and in shops, then you have it franked on a clipper machine on the bus.
They had this when I was living in France nearly 30 years ago. It's not cutting-edge technology.

Some of Doublethink's clients might have trouble with the idea of buying the ticket beforehand and getting it clipped on the bus; this system also requires pre-planning skills.

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

 - Posted      Profile for Ariel   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
It takes 2 seconds to pay with my debit card and no PIN required unless it's more than £20 - which two drinks at a pub would not reach, even in London!

Yes, and there's absolutely no proof against identity theft with this. They can run up a string of small purchases one at a time with your contactless card if they feel like it. Cash in the hand is at least finite - spend it and it's gone.

Also, it's possible to accidentally pay for something twice with contactless, or in some cases, when you haven't even swiped the card, but are merely standing near a POS.

Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Boogie:
quote:
In Germany you buy the ticket before you get on the bus (by cash or card) they are available in machines at bus stops and in shops, then you have it franked on a clipper machine on the bus.
They had this when I was living in France nearly 30 years ago. It's not cutting-edge technology.

Some of Doublethink's clients might have trouble with the idea of buying the ticket beforehand and getting it clipped on the bus; this system also requires pre-planning skills.

I know it's not new - but it works! Why we can't have it here I've no idea.

Having the right change in your pocket requires far more pre-planning, as fineline pointed out. If they had cash they could very quickly turn it into a ticket. And, with frequent and reliable buses, due to the excellent system, they wouldn't have long to wait for the next bus.

Win win!

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707

 - Posted      Profile for seekingsister   Email seekingsister   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Yes, and there's absolutely no proof against identity theft with this. They can run up a string of small purchases one at a time with your contactless card if they feel like it. Cash in the hand is at least finite - spend it and it's gone.

Also, it's possible to accidentally pay for something twice with contactless, or in some cases, when you haven't even swiped the card, but are merely standing near a POS.

Yes the future is terrifying, isn't it.

I have an app on my phone to check my online banking, which I do every 2 days or so. My husband checks his daily. Contactless purchases appear in the statement with a symbol next to them to clearly identify them, so that you can easily track the charges and notify the bank of any that are fraudulent.

As opposed to cash, which can be pickpocketed and used with no means of tracing the criminal's identity at all. I've had my purse stolen and while I never got the cash back, my bank cancelled the card and my mobile phone was insured. The cash is the only thing that I ended up losing for good.

A relative had nearly £1000 stolen from her bank account in less than 24 hours by using an ATM that had been tampered with; they skimmed her card details. So getting cash from a bank in and of itself is a risk. The police told her that she should only get cash from inside of the bank branch because they are less often targeted.

So if you want to be completely safe, you should only withdraw cash within the branch and ensure that you are never pickpocketed or mugged.

Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

 - Posted      Profile for Ariel   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I have an app on my phone to check my online banking, which I do every 2 days or so. My husband checks his daily.

Which evidently you feel you have to do every 24-48 hours, because you can't trust the system.

Ah well. I can't say I'm impressed with the cultural shift towards making everything virtual, but while I have a choice, I'll stick with real items.

I never used to feel like this but I'm seeing older people marginalized by not having the internet or smartphones, and it should be a socially acceptable choice, rather than people being made to feel they're missing out because they haven't got a computer or something to run apps on - and maybe they've managed perfectly well for years without one and don't feel any need to join the endless race of buy this, upgrade, pass the device on, get replacement, upgrade, pass the device on...

Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools