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Source: (consider it) Thread: Let's just shoot people
Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

Well, yes, of course, if we're going to kill people, let it be quick and painless -- but why? Because that makes it better?

Well, yes. Because it makes it better.

I eat meat. I will continue to eat meat, and I don't apologise for the fact that eating meat means killing animals. Nevertheless, I would like the animals I eat to be killed in as painless a way as possible, and not just because they taste better that way.

So if we decide that a particular criminal should forfeit his life, then yes, we should kill him in a way that inflicts the minimum necessary pain.

I don't understand why you think this isn't better for us. I think it's better for us to not cause animals unnecessary suffering, even if we still eat them. Do you not agree?

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by leftfieldlover:
I am very glad that I live in a country [UK] where there is no death penalty. Surely executing someone is sinking to their level. An eye for an eye is very Old Testament. [Mad] Keeping someone alive in prison for possibly years and years, with that person knowing they will never be free, must be more worrying to the prisoner than a quick [or not so quick these days!] visit to the Death Chamber and oblivion.

I think The Silent Acolyte has been a little unfair with your OT reference [Big Grin] . It is true that the rule was, in some respects, to limit people's revenge, and in primitive savage societies that could probably be construed as 'merciful'. God's attempt at damage limitation knowing his human creation's capacity for cracking nuts with sledgehammers. Jesus did try to take the principle in a more enlightened direction, but predictably we struggle with that. And there will always be a tension between coping with the practical realities of keeping those who are unfit to live in society safely contained, while permitting those who wish to, to exercise religious principles of forgiveness, mercy etc.

I do, admittedly, have a very unChristian feeling of satisfaction at the thought of life sentences actually being for life - rather than the usual trivial ten or fifteen year joke sentences seriously deranged criminals tend to get here in the UK. It complicates things that innocent people are sometimes executed - just as innocent people are sometimes jailed - judicial murder which is never, in itself avenged, even when acknowledged; 'oh dear, we made a mistake. Sorry!' Society needs to have a seriously tamped-down conscience to live through that, I would say. I mean, if society is taking upon itself the taking of human life as a penalty for criminal transgression, its judicial and law-enforcement agencies must be superlatively capable of unimpeachable conclusions in each and every single case, to justify their privileged and frankly dangerous position.

A system that - even occasionally - 'gets it wrong' really doesn't inspire confidence.

Not that logic need come into the argument at all, of course, but it always struck me as a strange statement to make; in order to teach our society how wrong it is to take human life, let's make the penalty for some crimes the taking of human life.

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RuthW

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# 13

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Leorning Cniht, I explicitly spelled it out:

quote:
Using a "humane" method of state execution allows us to think that it's all okay, that we aren't barbarians, that we are in some way better than and fundamentally different from the people we are killing. And we're not, we're just not.
With all this discussion of quick and painless death we are only kidding ourselves that we are in some way morally okay.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Leorning Cniht, I explicitly spelled it out:

quote:
Using a "humane" method of state execution allows us to think that it's all okay, that we aren't barbarians, that we are in some way better than and fundamentally different from the people we are killing. And we're not, we're just not.
With all this discussion of quick and painless death we are only kidding ourselves that we are in some way morally okay.
I don't believe Leorning Cniht said we would be morally "all okay," only that using a more humane execution method would be "better." Unless you (and he) think all moral choices are a binary between "all okay" and "all evil," you are misrepresenting him.

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ChastMastr
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I was going to post my position here but ... this is Hell, not Purgatory, so... I won't.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't believe Leorning Cniht said we would be morally "all okay," only that using a more humane execution method would be "better."

Pretty much.

I think there are two separate decisions: should we (in principle) kill people, and how should we kill people.

I think in all cases, the answer to the question "if we kill people, how should we kill them?" is that we should kill them in as painless a fashion as we can reasonably manage.

(Not sure whether Carbon Monoxide is better than Nitrogen from that point of view, but enough people go to sleep by a broken heater leaking CO and don't wake up that it can't be too painful.)

I hear plenty of comments from work colleagues etc. about how they would be happy to see some criminal convicted of a heinous crime suffer in agony as he died. Clearly it's better for the criminal if that doesn't happen, but I also think it's better for us not to think that way, and if we do think that way, not to give in to our base urges to torture the guy in vengeance.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Probably good pay-for-view revenue would be generated if the business model was right. I'm thinking it would be great to see audience participation via twitter, voting for the tortures on the way to death.

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\_(ツ)_/

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Probably good pay-for-view revenue would be generated if the business model was right. I'm thinking it would be great to see audience participation via twitter, voting for the tortures on the way to death.

A great way for the state to make money off tax-dodging conservative Christians.

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orfeo

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People came up with entertainment options for all this at least 13 years ago.

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anoesis
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
People came up with entertainment options for all this at least 13 years ago.

Well. I wonder where the idea for Hunger Games came from? Nothing new under the sun, is there...

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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mousethief

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Indeed, nothing new under that ol' sun.

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RuthW

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# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't believe Leorning Cniht said we would be morally "all okay," only that using a more humane execution method would be "better." Unless you (and he) think all moral choices are a binary between "all okay" and "all evil," you are misrepresenting him.

I didn't say he said this. (And "all okay" is colloquial, not exactly the phrasing one uses for precise philosophical points, because I'm not making a precise philosophical point.) I said we are kidding ourselves. Collectively, we, as Americans, are out of our tiny little minds. We are not good people.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't believe Leorning Cniht said we would be morally "all okay," only that using a more humane execution method would be "better." Unless you (and he) think all moral choices are a binary between "all okay" and "all evil," you are misrepresenting him.

I didn't say he said this. (And "all okay" is colloquial, not exactly the phrasing one uses for precise philosophical points, because I'm not making a precise philosophical point.) I said we are kidding ourselves. Collectively, we, as Americans, are out of our tiny little minds. We are not good people.
So what you said had nothing at all to do with what he said, then. Got it.

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anoesis
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I hear plenty of comments from work colleagues etc. about how they would be happy to see some criminal convicted of a heinous crime suffer in agony as he died.

I think they might be quite surprised by how they felt if they were actually in that position. I was on hand to observe, a couple of years ago, a person whom I profoundly disliked (with good reason), suffering intense emotional anguish. And it wasn't really any different from watching someone I did like suffering intense emotional anguish. It was horrible. It turns out I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It was a good thing for me to learn.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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RuthW

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# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So what you said had nothing at all to do with what he said, then. Got it.

I did in fact explain my point, and he totally missed it. As did you.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So what you said had nothing at all to do with what he said, then. Got it.

I did in fact explain my point, and he totally missed it. As did you.
You now appear to be saying that only you can make a point, and anybody else making another point -- say, l.c. -- is off-base because he's not responding to your point.

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mousethief

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Having slept on this I'm not at all sure what I'm arguing for or why. I apologize for being a pissant and withdraw from this part of the conversation.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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No worries! Goodness knows I've been there, have the t-shirt (and the mug, the keychain, the tote bag, the commemorative plaque, the letter thanking for my dedicated service to the cause ...).
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ChastMastr
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Ah, heck with it, I'll post my wee thoughts on this, but this is Hell, target painted on chest, etc., but this really seems more of a Purg discussion to me, blah blah blah...

I believe in the abstract in the death penalty for murder and such crimes.

BUT I believe the way our justice system in the US seems to be managing it is unfair in very disturbing ways. Racially especially but not exclusively. There have been way way too many people who turned out to be innocent after decades in prison, so who knows how many innocents have been executed? Yikes.

AND I think the ways our justice system in the US are using to kill people are downright more horrific than a lot of more humane ways to die.

THEREFORE I think the US justice system is so messed up as to make me against the death penalty in the US.

BUT if we are going to have the death penalty anyway, OR until we CAN abolish the death penalty, I think it should be as quick and humane as possible. Maybe the prisoner could be given a choice of options.

THOUGH if I were in prison for life, in these horrible conditions, especially the insane US private prison industry (which should be completely abolished), I think I'd genuinely RATHER die, and quickly.

That said, this is Hell, if you want to attack me for it I'm not interested in doing the Hell thing, so ... those are my thoughts, have fun.

(scurries back up to Purgatory and the like)

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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:

....
THOUGH if I were in prison for life, in these horrible conditions, especially the insane US private prison industry (which should be completely abolished), I think I'd genuinely RATHER die, and quickly.

I've deleted much of your post because I agree with much of your take on the situation. However, people in prison with Capital sentences do tend to use the full appeal process. That's one of the reasons for the inhumane delay.

While the death penalty seems wrong in many cases, especially given the racial and economic biases to the legal system and the number of convicted innocent people shown up by DNA evidence, I'm not sure what you do when someone with a life sentence murders a prison guard or another prisoner.

Let me add that I'm totally unconvinced by the argument that the relatives of the crime victim "need the closure" of an execution.

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argona
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# 14037

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Yes, it is better for the person who will die if he doesn't languish on death row for decades before being executed, if he doesn't gasp for breath for the better part of two hours before dying, if it's quick and relatively painless rather than drawn-out and horrific. But it is not better for us. Using a "humane" method of state execution allows us to think that it's all okay, that we aren't barbarians, that we are in some way better than and fundamentally different from the people we are killing. And we're not, we're just not.

This is a telling point. I can't get too exercised over the fate of a murderer. For their part, they've broken the most important clause in their contract with the community and can't complain, whatever the community does with them.

The question is, what does the communitiy's sentence say about / do to us? To me there is something horrible about taking someone who is in custody, can stay there as long as we choose, incapable of repeating their offence and nevertheless, just... killing them. I'm glad that in the UK we don't do that any more, though I'm not smug about that because polls consistently show that a majority of my fellow citizens disagree. It's only because enough legislators couldn't stomach a return to executions that we don't still hang 'em high.

Anselmina's point about the possibility of wrongful conviction weighs as heavily. It's not even that there's just an occasional slip-up in the judicial process, though that in itself would be a solid enough argument against for me. I'm not sure how many once-capital murder convictions here, since abolition of the death penalty, have been reversed, mostly years later, but it's certainly in double figures. At least they could be let out of jail and some redress made. No way can you dig up a corpse and say "Whoops, sorry, on your way then."

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by argona:
I can't get too exercised over the fate of a murderer. For their part, they've broken the most important clause in their contract with the community and can't complain, whatever the community does with them.

The state has such a poor record of getting the right guy, as determined by DNA testing, that I can't join you in your gleeful rejoicing over the suffering of "murderers."

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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by argona:
This is a telling point. I can't get too exercised over the fate of a murderer. For their part, they've broken the most important clause in their contract with the community and can't complain, whatever the community does with them.

The question is, what does the communitiy's sentence say about / do to us? To me there is something horrible about taking someone who is in custody, can stay there as long as we choose, incapable of repeating their offence and nevertheless, just... killing them. I'm glad that in the UK we don't do that any more, though I'm not smug about that because polls consistently show that a majority of my fellow citizens disagree. It's only because enough legislators couldn't stomach a return to executions that we don't still hang 'em high.

Anselmina's point about the possibility of wrongful conviction weighs as heavily. It's not even that there's just an occasional slip-up in the judicial process, though that in itself would be a solid enough argument against for me. I'm not sure how many once-capital murder convictions here, since abolition of the death penalty, have been reversed, mostly years later, but it's certainly in double figures. At least they could be let out of jail and some redress made. No way can you dig up a corpse and say "Whoops, sorry, on your way then."

The Innocence Project lists over 300 exonerations using DNA evidence in the United States. 18 of these were people sentenced to death. Half of them were people of color.
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L'organist
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The preponderance of blacks and hispanics on death row is shameful.

Similarly, the standards of admissible 'evidence' in some states beggars belief.

Yes, the question of what to do with murderers is not easily answered, but if killing people is wrong then executing people is also wrong.

And botching executions is unforgivable.

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Byron
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# 15532

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quote:
Originally posted by argona:
[...] I can't get too exercised over the fate of a murderer. For their part, they've broken the most important clause in their contract with the community and can't complain, whatever the community does with them. [...]

Right with ya, emotionally speaking. Thing is, dehumanizing anyone, for any reason, is a dark road to go down. I'll force myself to defend the rights of the unequivocally guilty for that reason if no other.

That's why I don't argue the death penalty should be abolished because of wrongful conviction. Fatal mistakes aren't used as grounds to disarm the police, or to ban vehicles or over the counter medications. Focusing on mistakes above all else skirts round the issue.

I believe the death penalty's wrong 'cause I believe retribution is wrong. Like I said upthread, I've no issue with those who disagree, but both sides ought to be able to show concern for prisoners, even if that concern is expressed through executing them in a humane way.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
That's why I don't argue the death penalty should be abolished because of wrongful conviction. Fatal mistakes aren't used as grounds to disarm the police, or to ban vehicles or over the counter medications. Focusing on mistakes above all else skirts round the issue.

The nature of the 'mistake' is completely different, though. With the death penalty there's no mistake in killing someone, only in getting the identity of your victim wrong.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Let me add that I'm totally unconvinced by the argument that the relatives of the crime victim "need the closure" of an execution.

While I haven't had the experience of a murder, we did have a random life threatening crime against a family member. I would indicate that wanting the death of the offender is absolutely the wish of the family members even when the crime isn't a murder; if you don't imagine it in daylight hours, it haunts your dreams. My contact with other families indicates that this is rather common.

It is not about closure, it is about what we experienced as the human need for punishment and retribution. Before this happened, I would have said that I thought I was civilized, educated and mature enough to rise above such base human emotional and violent responses, but I learned that I'm not. Lack of appropriate punishment will absolutely make the family lack closure. The offender to disappear from our consciousness.

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Byron
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# 15532

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The nature of the 'mistake' is completely different, though. With the death penalty there's no mistake in killing someone, only in getting the identity of your victim wrong.

Granted, the analogy's not exact, although deliberate killing is something an execution shares with using deadly force in self-defense. What self-defense gains in imminence, it loses in certainty: mistakes are, of course, far less likely after trial and appeal than in a panicked confrontation.
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JoannaP
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Let me add that I'm totally unconvinced by the argument that the relatives of the crime victim "need the closure" of an execution.

While I haven't had the experience of a murder, we did have a random life threatening crime against a family member. I would indicate that wanting the death of the offender is absolutely the wish of the family members even when the crime isn't a murder; if you don't imagine it in daylight hours, it haunts your dreams. My contact with other families indicates that this is rather common.

It is not about closure, it is about what we experienced as the human need for punishment and retribution. Before this happened, I would have said that I thought I was civilized, educated and mature enough to rise above such base human emotional and violent responses, but I learned that I'm not. Lack of appropriate punishment will absolutely make the family lack closure. The offender to disappear from our consciousness.

But it does not necessarily follow that execution would provide closure. Certainly Herzog's film Into the Abyss suggests that it does not always happen.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
But it does not necessarily follow that execution would provide closure. Certainly Herzog's film Into the Abyss suggests that it does not always happen.

I've heard (and read) a number of interviews with family members of victims that make the same point. Maybe for some it does provide closure. For many others, it does not. Should whether or not we kill a convicted murderer be dependent upon whether or not the victim's family members are of the first sort or the second?

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Palimpsest
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I'm not saying that people might not want revenge and retribution. The question is whether the state should cater to that desire by executing people.

What happens to that family when later evidence exonerates the executed? How do they get closure for having demanded the death of an innocent person?

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Perhaps I missed it on this thread, but apparently it is cheaper to use jail for life until death than to execute because of legal costs. Not saying the economic argument should persuade, but it is interesting.

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Perhaps I missed it on this thread, but apparently it is cheaper to use jail for life until death than to execute because of legal costs. Not saying the economic argument should persuade, but it is interesting.

Similarly, it would frequently be cheaper to use methods to prevent lower-level offenders from being in jail in the first place. Which never stops 'law and order' politicians from advocating a 'tough on crime' stance that basically involves locking people up after they commit crimes as the thoroughly unimaginative answer to stopping them from commiting further crimes in the future... for a period at least.

(Everybody, please note, I'm most definitely not saying that there isn't a role for jails, and even lifelong jail.)

[ 31. July 2014, 03:19: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Let me add that I'm totally unconvinced by the argument that the relatives of the crime victim "need the closure" of an execution.

While I haven't had the experience of a murder, we did have a random life threatening crime against a family member. I would indicate that wanting the death of the offender is absolutely the wish of the family members even when the crime isn't a murder; if you don't imagine it in daylight hours, it haunts your dreams. My contact with other families indicates that this is rather common.

It is not about closure, it is about what we experienced as the human need for punishment and retribution. Before this happened, I would have said that I thought I was civilized, educated and mature enough to rise above such base human emotional and violent responses, but I learned that I'm not. Lack of appropriate punishment will absolutely make the family lack closure. The offender to disappear from our consciousness.

This is perhaps why the OT sets up "cities of refuge" where someone who causes an accidental homicide can flee for safety.

The desire for retribution when someone has caused such enormous pain and suffering is normal, natural. What doesn't follow, however, is that the State needs to satisfy that desire.

I know that if someone harmed my child I would need to be physically restrained from personally carving out the beating heart of the murderer with a sharpened spoon. That doesn't mean that's a good or moral thing to do, nor does it mean that should I succeed, the brutal death would bring any more "closure" to my grief. To say nothing of the impact should I later learn that in my grief and rage I had carved out the wrong person's heart.

We need to find other ways to comfort, support, and care for grieving families.

[ 31. July 2014, 15:27: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
monkeylizard

Ship's scurvy
# 952

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I wouldn't bother to sharpen the spoon.

I agree with you on the aftermath.

[ 31. July 2014, 15:39: Message edited by: monkeylizard ]

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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)

Posts: 2201 | From: Music City, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Similarly, it would frequently be cheaper to use methods to prevent lower-level offenders from being in jail in the first place. Which never stops 'law and order' politicians from advocating a 'tough on crime' stance that basically involves locking people up after they commit crimes as the thoroughly unimaginative answer to stopping them from commiting further crimes in the future... for a period at least.

(Everybody, please note, I'm most definitely not saying that there isn't a role for jails, and even lifelong jail.)

Agreed. Crimes of violence and harm are vastly different from crimes of property. Which are again different than crimes related to some personal choices, like drugs usage. Some of the things classified as crimes are indeed crimes, others are about economics, health or social conditions.

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
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# 17338

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Apparently it costs $2 million more to execute someone than it does to keep them locked up until they die.

This is because of the cost of numerous appeals, extra security for said appeals, dealing with protestors when executions take place, etc.

The Times tells me that this is leading to 'conservative republicans' (tautologous surely) campaigning against the death penalty on cost grounds.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Apparently it costs $2 million more to execute someone than it does to keep them locked up until they die.

Don't suppose the executioner gets to see much of that figure in bonuses .

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Charlie-in-the-box
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# 17954

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
[QB] Caught a rerun of The Running Man lately?

The running man idea, not bad. We could go reality TV with it. Start with the current day, pick death row inmates, say, four each week? Then do the back story on each one, what led up to their current situation and then show their lives today on death row. You know, have the first grade teacher on there saying how wonderful/caring he/she was (or demented) and how shocked/not shocked they are that this person did what they did.

Then we have to detail their crimes, talk about the victim, and hear from the families of the victims.

Then go to a meeting of the four, their agreement to participate, and then have them doing things to try to win various prizes. Each set of four can go four weeks, until one is left and he/she gets to pick their manner of death, while it is broadcast, live, with a two hour media blitz. They get to pick their outfit to wear, their last meal, and what music they want played. They can jump off the grand canyon, die of smoke inhalation in a limo, whatever. People are beyond sick about this so why not just show it on TV?

Hell, we can even make it like American Idol. Call in to vote for their last meal, etc. The weekly winners can get a bonus like better meals, a cushy mattress, or free pay-per-view for a week.

People love reality TV. They would pay to see this stuff. Our society would pay to see a beheading. Didn't executions used to all be public? [Snigger]

[ 03. August 2014, 14:11: Message edited by: Charlie-in-the-box ]

Posts: 55 | From: Island of Misfit Heretics | Registered: Jan 2014  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Subscribing to the notion that we allow government to exist because it does things more efficiently for us collectively than we can do ourselves means that we view government as us, writ large. When a government takes action – we are taking that action.

Several people here have hypnotized that they could not be retained if someone killed their child. I understand the feeling. When someone has threatened either of my sons I am filled with the need to protect them. They are more precious to me than life itself.

Get past the fact that our system of justice, being human based, makes mistakes for the moment. Look at who might deserve to die for their sins. Let’s see. How about a horrible serial killer? Everyone can agree we don’t want a serial killer hanging around.

How about the guy you see murdering a convenience store clerk during a robbery? Bad person, no doubt?

What if wither was your son, or daughter? Would you feel differently?

How about someone standing at the US Mexican border shooting the children trying to sneak into the US?

If they should be executed, how about the people standing at the border urging our government to throw them out; meaning that they are highly likely to die because death is what they were fleeing in the first place? A little too far? Did you think about it for a second?

Go out further. How about the people who make immigration policy? Or, the people who buy drugs which it what fuels a lot of this? Maybe the gun manufacturers and dealers who know a significant chunk of their income comes from drug cartels south of the border? Some of those folks need to die for the common good?

A Buddhist Monk once said “You cannot cure hate with hate.” We are not curing hate based crimes with hate. We are not curing violence with violence. We are acting upon the same base instincts we condemn when we do the same thing through the State.

Dressing up hatred and violence through some “humane” sounding way of killing seems to me to serve only as a way of making us feel like we are administering justice rather than revenge. When we as a government kill people it is US killing those people. We, individually and collectively are depriving some mother of her child to exact revenge.

Do you think that mother will think it is all OK because her child died painlessly? Or, do you think we might perhaps have started another cycle of hatred and revenge?

[ 11. August 2014, 11:23: Message edited by: Tortuf ]

Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
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# 14696

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Long time no see Tortuf. Welcome back. [Smile]

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a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged



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