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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: World Cup 2014: The truly global party
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
These a capella anthems are something else - I've seen Brazil and Chile do it. Fervent is the word. Let's hope Brazil play likewise.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I hate the US. I was ecstatic when Portugal got the equalizer.
Do you hate the entire country or just the US men's soccer team?
I think if we do a replacement test, replacing "the US" for Brazil, Netherlands, Mexico or Italy, just to grab a few examples, it would be fairly obvious that she was talking about the US men's soccer team. But it's a bit lot to ask to write all that out in a two-sentence reply, in my opinion. Just imagine the problem we'd have if The Former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedonia's Men's Soccer Team would qualify. I say go with elision and Occam's razor and assume that all posts on a (presumably men's soccer) World Cup 2014 thread are about 2014 men's soccer teams until given explicit reason to suspect otherwise. Especially since it wasn't likely that it was all of Portugal, every square inch and all of its 11 million people, that together scored the equalizer mentioned in the follow-up sentence.
The game Klinsmann vs Germany should be a very interesting one, given that Klinsmann's coaching tenure in Germany more than anything else has shaped Jogi Löw's current coaching style and squad. A Darth/Obi-Wan moment. I'd love to see Ghana in the knock-out stages, however, so rooting for a German victory.
I have a hard time seeing who might threaten Holland though, given the way things look at present. Brazil or Germany, possibly, and maybe, maybe Argentina if they get their stuff figured out before it's too late. France? It'd be an interesting game, for sure, but I still doubt it, as do I doubt Costa Rica's ability to be more than semi-final material. Except for those, any nation beating Holland would be a major surprise in my book.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
I say go with elision and Occam's razor and assume that all posts on a (presumably men's soccer) World Cup 2014 thread are about 2014 men's soccer teams until given explicit reason to suspect otherwise.
Yeah, I suppose I should have thought of that. But there's been enough anti-US sentiment on these boards over the years to make my question a legitimate one, I think.
I'm feeling proud of myself for figuring out how to follow the US games when I don't have cable or fluent Spanish. I turn on Univision and cue up the live tweet feed on the LA Times website to explain what's going on.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
I say go with elision and Occam's razor and assume that all posts on a (presumably men's soccer) World Cup 2014 thread are about 2014 men's soccer teams until given explicit reason to suspect otherwise.
Yeah, I suppose I should have thought of that. But there's been enough anti-US sentiment on these boards over the years to make my question a legitimate one, I think.
Football rivalries can sometimes just be the pantomime of sport, or they can be a proxy for something deeper. It's not always obvious on the surface which is which. So I think the question was fair enough.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
I say go with elision and Occam's razor and assume that all posts on a (presumably men's soccer) World Cup 2014 thread are about 2014 men's soccer teams until given explicit reason to suspect otherwise.
Yeah, I suppose I should have thought of that. But there's been enough anti-US sentiment on these boards over the years to make my question a legitimate one, I think.
I do think you have a very good point here. The problem is that it's so hard to duplicate for other teams. And also, it seems to be far more implicit in the way, for example, few would enjoy watching Russia win, unless they possibly do something over the top to gain sympathy, like playing Brazilian dream football or something.
Even anti-US sentiments sort of replicate American exceptionalism. However, football is all about exceptionalism, making oneself a successful exception, so I can see a space where it becomes extra fuzzy. And I'll be honest, there are several countries for which I hold less sympathies for political reasons. The US is not really one of them, although their sports culture (which Jürgen Klinsmann himself has pointed out as one of the reasons why he chose to coach them!) is exceptional and somewhat exceptionalistic and may be cause for extra frustration with the culture differences. But there's so many things intersecting here...
Most of all, I'd say this: to the extent that football is an outlet for other sentiments, I'd leave it out of this thread and assume that people who don't like Swedish overorganization (e.g. in the EU cooperation) also dislike Swedish football's overreliance on tactics, whereas those with a dislike of "flashy" cultures will also dislike flashy sides like Italy's, and sort of be fine with it. I may be asking someone who's already taken a lot to take a bit more, of course, but I'd play it the other way around and accept that not everyone likes my country and pretend that it's just about the football when it takes those expressions.
(And, tangential though this may be, I don't think we'll ever get to a point where everyone likes everyone's culture - those things will always spark frustration. I prefer football whining to bullets or hankie battering, though.)
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Good to see our neighbour to the south get 3. Hope that good old Luka Modric returns to Spurs if he can...
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
To answer the question posed to me, as a Canadian I have a strong antipathy towards the US. I hate the US men's football team.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It takes so long to watch 4 matches in a day. I am such a soccer tragic that I'm taking the next couple of days off work so that I can manage this period of the tournament. Sleep in, thank God!
A few thoughts on what is now yesterday:
- Australia put in its worst performance. Sigh.
- Netherlands v Chile was pretty dull.
- Cameroon finally turned up to play a bit which was nice.
- More interesting was that Brazil still looked a touch shaky and are relying heavily on one star player. If Neymar picks up an injury or another yellow card, they are in trouble.
- Mexico are a top quality team.
So next round we get Brazil v Chile and Netherlands v Mexico. And now, for the rant...
That's probably not the match-ups we should have. Mexico have, IMHO, been playing better and more importantly the scoreboard would have reflected that if not for some questionable refereeing, which seems to have affected this group more than any other. Mexico quite definitely should have had 2 more goals, which would have given them the same goal difference as Brazil. And a couple of Brazil's goals were dubious (one in each win), take away either of those and Mexico tops the group.
I have vague hopes that Chile will be good enough to come out and stun Brazil out of the tournament. But even if they do, that still doesn't right the seeming injustice of Netherlands and Mexico facing off that early in the tournament. A switch in the placings in a group affects the entire shape of the draw.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Thoughts for the next matches, now only just over an hour away:
Costa Rica v England is interesting. It's possible that England may just prove something here, but they're coming against a team that has played exceptionally well and surprised everyone. Costa Rica might come down a level now that they have less to play for.
Italy v Uruguay... look, who knows? I think Uruguay may pinch it just because they have Suarez and Suarez is lethal. Truly an outstanding goal-scorer.
In the other group, I think Colombia and Cote d'Ivoire can comfortably account for their opponents. In the latter case, Greece are one of the most uninspiring teams in the tournament.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Thoughts for the next matches, now only just over an hour away...
Oh yeah, England are playing again soon. *Feigns lack of interest*
Seriously, it will be good to see how the young'uns and fringe players do, especially my local lads Shaw and Lallana. Come on Lukey, put in a good performance and drive up your price! Rumours this morning of Man Utd being willing to cough up £40million for him... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Rumours this morning of Man Utd being willing to cough up £40million for him...
Which just goes to show how desperate Utd are at the moment. (In passing - if they really do spend a couple of hundred million on new players, won't that screw them in terms of Financial Fairplay?)
From a Saints perspective, I would say "take the money." It's absurd.
From an England perspective, I would say "don't let Shaw within a mile of Old Trafford." He'll go there with wildly overinflated expectations, and then be slammed for not meeting them. As almost all players do on going to Utd, he will fail to progress and eventually decline into a mediocre player with an albatross of a transfer fee forever around his neck.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
The beer for the upcoming matches is chilled. I'll have a Guinnesss if England score! I will try to putter about the house a bit while I watch and listen...
News flash - everybody's least favourite rat bastard Ballotelly already got a yellow card. Here's hoping he gets the red card he so richly deserves.
I've delayed the DVR a wee bit so I could get my wife off to school and post this...
Of course I am watching England. No score at 25 minutes thanks to a good save on penalty kick by our keeper!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Agreed, Oscar the Grouch. £40million is a heck of a lot of money for an immensely talented but unproven left back. From the England perspective, would Shaw moving to Man U be that bad? He'd presumably be first choice, so there wouldn't be the Rodwell / Sinclair issue of a talented youngster warming the bench and seeing his career stall.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
We could use a teenager with World Cup experience like him with my Spurs!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Suarez has bitten someone !
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
For the third time.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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pjl
Shipmate
# 16929
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Posted
Suarez had a real appetite for this game.
Posts: 576 | From: england | Registered: Feb 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
*groan*
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
To answer the question posed to me, as a Canadian I have a strong antipathy towards the US. I hate the US men's football team.
The game doesn't have a large following there. Hate is a strong word, which I wouldn't use, but indifferent and not cheering for them. Yes. The members of the team and coach are playing for America I gather. Nationality is another matter.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The game doesn't have a large following there.
This article in Bleacher Report says about 27 million people in the US watched the US-Portugal game, more than watched any game of the NBA championship series.
John Oliver is correct in his characterization of soccer as being for a lot of Americans "something you pick up your 10-year-old daughter from," but my sister-in-law, who used to be one of those 10-year-old soccer players, follows soccer, and she's got company. Between the growth of immigration from Mexico and Central and South America* and the exposure of millions to the game in childhood, there's more interest now than there ever has been, and I think the upward trend will continue. (After all, the US is an enormous media market and there's a lot of money to be made here.)
*And from other places too, of course. I was recently forced to spend a number of hours sitting in the waiting area of a mechanic shop, and the Beirut-born Armenian-American owner had the TV tuned to the World Cup, so I watched too, and I got interested.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
News flash - everybody's least favourite rat bastard Ballotelly already got a yellow card. Here's hoping he gets the red card he so richly deserves.
I don't think Balotelli is a bastard. He's very young, he's not the brightest and he's got a lot of silly things on his mind, but he's also Italy's Jackie Robinson and he's only in the national team because he's so bloody talented that the national coach cannot accede to the Italian supporters' constant claims that he's not a real Italian - due to his skin colour. Adding to that a very harsh childhood or rather an entire life like that and without other people to connect to in similar situations (unlike Robinson where the black minority was large and could at least find support in one another).
I think Balotelli's a relatively good kid who loses his mind. I wouldn't compare him in bastardery to say, Suarez, Busquets or De Jong. I'd also be careful with the insults around him given what sides one risks placing oneself on.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Suarez has bitten someone !
He belongs in a mental hospital. A grown up man biting people just isn't normal.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Agreed, Oscar the Grouch. £40million is a heck of a lot of money for an immensely talented but unproven left back. From the England perspective, would Shaw moving to Man U be that bad? He'd presumably be first choice, so there wouldn't be the Rodwell / Sinclair issue of a talented youngster warming the bench and seeing his career stall.
Do we know if Van Gaal sees him as first choice? There were rumours that he was interested in another LB. It would be a shame if he was to become another Zaha - bought with razzmataz and then shipped out on loan. And you're right about Rodwell & Sinclair. To name but two. When will young players realise that if they want to get to the top, they have to be playing regularly?
Much as I admire Shaw, my guess is that he will go to Utd, get hammered as soon as he hits a bad patch (he's a teenager, so it's going to happen), and then Van Gaal will go out and buy an experienced LB and leave Shaw on the bench, where he stagnates until being sold at a loss to a club like Spurs or Stoke.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The game doesn't have a large following there.
This article in Bleacher Report says about 27 million people in the US watched the US-Portugal game, more than watched any game of the NBA championship series.
John Oliver is correct in his characterization of soccer as being for a lot of Americans "something you pick up your 10-year-old daughter from," but my sister-in-law, who used to be one of those 10-year-old soccer players, follows soccer, and she's got company. Between the growth of immigration from Mexico and Central and South America* and the exposure of millions to the game in childhood, there's more interest now than there ever has been, and I think the upward trend will continue. (After all, the US is an enormous media market and there's a lot of money to be made here.)
*And from other places too, of course. I was recently forced to spend a number of hours sitting in the waiting area of a mechanic shop, and the Beirut-born Armenian-American owner had the TV tuned to the World Cup, so I watched too, and I got interested.
I don't know about years past, but this year, every bar in town has been packed every day of the World Cup. I think the US would be humbly grateful to be invited to the global party.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Suarez has bitten someone !
He belongs in a mental hospital. A grown up man biting people just isn't normal.
That match was insane. That GUY is insane. I had mixed feelings about the outcome, as I am following the Latin American teams.
Neither team impressed me with their game style, though-- bunch of patty cake and finger-pointing. That last goal was phenomenal, though.
[ 25. June 2014, 04:19: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
...sold at a loss to a club like Spurs or Stoke.
God, poor kid. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Meanwhile, FIFA have charged Suarez, so the wheels of whatever Sepp Blatter thinks constitutes justice are in motion.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think the US would be humbly grateful to be invited to the global party.
"Humility" being that well known American stereotype.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
Regarding Suarez, I must say I don't understand those asking for him to "be thrown out" of the World Cup. Are they asking for a 4 game suspension, or for him to be literally banned and sent home? If the latter, frankly, yeah, biting is not a normal degree of violence but I don't necessarily think it's a more dangerous or brutal form of violence than Gentile's secret face-punch in the late 80's, De Jong's chest-kick from the last finals, or Danish Christian Poulsen's punch to Swede Markus Rosenberg's belly in the 2007 qualifications. Given that modern football is ripe with spitting attacks (e.g. Totti) and headbuttings (e.g. Zidane), I am not sure I see it as particularly and severely degraded behaviour either in comparison to the rest. Uncommon, yes, and primal, indeed, but that speaks more for Suarez's need for care than for that his crime was one against humanity and/or nature.
I think it should be treated with less dehumanising and a greater degree of professionalism - yes, we have an extreme case of violence, but will remain extreme and uncommon. It left marks on Chiellini's shoulder but not worse than those of e.g. Scholes's thigh-piercing tackle vs Mild in late 90s (yellow card, no suspension). The Laws of the Game include a special paragraph for spitting under offences deserving a red card, but does not mention biting. The paragraph this goes under would be "If a player attacks another player" and leads to a red card. Attacks can be of many kinds (I speak as a former ref), and I'm glad it's not defined, because it is extreme and should be so. But I don't think Suarez's attack on Chiellini was worse than many other attacks in modern football. Possibly more primitive and uncommon, yet none of those are grounds for prolongening suspensions.
So, I can see a four game suspension (or longer) for his attack, but I think throwing him out of the World Cup "on principle" would be sending plenty of bad messages about how spitting and head-butting is relatively fine.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pjl:
Suarez had a real appetite for this game.
Really? I thought he was rooting for Italy.
Onto Eng v Costa Rica: Daniel Sturridge was biffing the ball around like Stuart Surridge, but to rather less effect.
No Rrrooney, no gol.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think the US would be humbly grateful to be invited to the global party.
"Humility" being that well known American stereotype.
Well, you could go by Shipmates you know instead of a stereotype.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
I think Balotelli's a relatively good kid who loses his mind. I wouldn't compare him in bastardery to say, Suarez, Busquets or De Jong. I'd also be careful with the insults around him given what sides one risks placing oneself on.
(if I may be so bold)
I agree with what you say, from what little I have seen. Just wondering about something-- was I imagining things or in the Uruguay game, did Balotelli back-kick someone in the head? I remember him getting a yellow card and the replay showed him in a deep embrace with the Uruguayan, but when they broke apart, his foot kind of kicked backwards and landed on the back of his head.
As fouls go, it was kind of impressive...
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think the US would be humbly grateful to be invited to the global party.
"Humility" being that well known American stereotype.
Well, you could go by Shipmates you know instead of a stereotype.
I could. I could also go by my experience of meeting many humble and generally lovely Americans in Real Life™. But have you seen US soccer fans hunt in packs? Dude! And somehow that seems like the most appropriate yardstick in this particular conversation.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
I'd be quite happy to see Suarez booted out of the tournament. Biting a player may not be in the same class assault as, say, Schumacher on Battiston, but it represents a sneakiness that adds an extra unpleasantness to the violence. Bite a player, get him to lose his temper and get himself sent off = job done.
Some of the challenges on Balotelli seemed designed to do something similar, and they worked - he got himself booked and hauled off. I wonder if they did the same thing to Raheem Sterling in their match against England. He also got hauled off and was lucky not to get a card.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Identifying a member of the opposition who has a temper and making a specific effort to wind them up in the hope that they will do something stupid is a tactic that is as old as sport itself. And completely legitimate, IMHO.
Also, with Suarez, I'm not sure that this is exactly what's going on. I think he reacts in a moment and without thinking when he bites. Then, in the immediate aftermath he thinks "oh, shit, what now?" and decides that feigning injury is the best way to get away with what he's done. If I've understood your point correctly, I think this is a bit different from what you're saying.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think the US would be humbly grateful to be invited to the global party.
"Humility" being that well known American stereotype.
Well, you could go by Shipmates you know instead of a stereotype.
I could. I could also go by my experience of meeting many humble and generally lovely Americans in Real Life™. But have you seen US soccer fans hunt in packs? Dude! And somehow that seems like the most appropriate yardstick in this particular conversation.
Oh, OK,
But my answer to that is-- ever met any Colombia fans? They make us look like Swedish diplomats.
And did you hear what they did to the FIFA office in Brazil?
I think Soccer/ Football just brings out the freak in people. Ole! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Also, with Suarez, I'm not sure that this is exactly what's going on. I think he reacts in a moment and without thinking when he bites. Then, in the immediate aftermath he thinks "oh, shit, what now?" and decides that feigning injury is the best way to get away with what he's done.
Nucking futz, in other words.
quote:
Identifying a member of the opposition who has a temper and making a specific effort to wind them up in the hope that they will do something stupid is a tactic that is as old as sport itself. And completely legitimate, IMHO.
Especially if the target revels in being wound. Yeesh, the histrionics with that guy.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think Soccer/ Football just brings out the freak in people. Ole!
This is unquestionably true. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think the US would be humbly grateful to be invited to the global party.
"Humility" being that well known American stereotype.
Well, you could go by Shipmates you know instead of a stereotype.
I could. I could also go by my experience of meeting many humble and generally lovely Americans in Real Life™. But have you seen US soccer fans hunt in packs? Dude! And somehow that seems like the most appropriate yardstick in this particular conversation.
Oh, OK,
But my answer to that is-- ever met any Colombia fans? They make us look like Swedish diplomats.
HEY! What's that with the ethnic profiling! Mind you, even our king's own staff have had enough of him cheering on our athletes! quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
I'd be quite happy to see Suarez booted out of the tournament. Biting a player may not be in the same class assault as, say, Schumacher on Battiston, but it represents a sneakiness that adds an extra unpleasantness to the violence. Bite a player, get him to lose his temper and get himself sent off = job done.
Mind you, it would be the first booting in World Cup history. Also, you evidently haven't seen the Gentile reference I gave you. I can't access Youtube for another month but if you look up Gentile you'll find a punch from behind near the far corner from the referees' viewpoint, designed specifically to allow him to hurt and provoke an opponent out of the ref's view. Very pre-conceived and he got to stay in. Are we actually excessively focused on harsh penalties these days?
[ 25. June 2014, 09:10: Message edited by: JFH ]
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Standards can always change, if changing them is clearly for the better. There is no place for the likes of Chopper Harris in the modern game, and I'm sure everyone regards that as a good thing.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
Question for those who know more than me (i.e. most, if not all, of you)
If Suarez were to get a 2 year ban, would that just be international games or is that a ban from all competitive football?
Any coverage I've read has not been clear on this point.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
News flash - everybody's least favourite rat bastard Ballotelly already got a yellow card. Here's hoping he gets the red card he so richly deserves.
I don't think Balotelli is a bastard.
I think Balotelli's a relatively good kid who loses his mind. I wouldn't compare him in bastardery to say, Suarez, Busquets or De Jong. I'd also be careful with the insults around him given what sides one risks placing oneself on.
I don't hate him because I'm racist: my best friends from high school are my old football buddies who are predominantly black. I hate him because he's a racist. I remind you that just last year, he deliberately kicked poor old Gareth in the head and got away with it! Had he gotten the red card he deserved, Spurs might have won the match. He likely bribed the referees to look the other way. Wonder how he'd have felt if Suarez had bit him?
He may be a talented player, but he's a loose cannon!
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Onto Eng v Costa Rica: Daniel Sturridge was biffing the ball around like Stuart Surridge, but to rather less effect.
No Rrrooney, no gol.
It seems that way. Sturridge seems like a nice guy who means well, but as we all know, nice guys finish last! That's 95 minutes of my life I'll never get back...
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Question for those who know more than me (i.e. most, if not all, of you)
If Suarez were to get a 2 year ban, would that just be international games or is that a ban from all competitive football?
Any coverage I've read has not been clear on this point.
I read something on the BBC website, which said that technically a FIFA ban can be applied to domestic games, but in practice, never is. So that is not very helpful!
It seems odd to think that he will just come back to the Premiership and carry on regardless.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
That reminds me of Camus: 'everything I have learned about morality and the obligations of men, I have learned from football'.
Or did I just see it on a T-shirt?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
Regarding Suarez, I must say I don't understand those asking for him to "be thrown out" of the World Cup. Are they asking for a 4 game suspension, or for him to be literally banned and sent home? If the latter, frankly, yeah, biting is not a normal degree of violence but I don't necessarily think it's a more dangerous or brutal form of violence than Gentile's secret face-punch in the late 80's, De Jong's chest-kick from the last finals, or Danish Christian Poulsen's punch to Swede Markus Rosenberg's belly in the 2007 qualifications. Given that modern football is ripe with spitting attacks (e.g. Totti) and headbuttings (e.g. Zidane), I am not sure I see it as particularly and severely degraded behaviour either in comparison to the rest. Uncommon, yes, and primal, indeed, but that speaks more for Suarez's need for care than for that his crime was one against humanity and/or nature.
I think it should be treated with less dehumanising and a greater degree of professionalism - yes, we have an extreme case of violence, but will remain extreme and uncommon. It left marks on Chiellini's shoulder but not worse than those of e.g. Scholes's thigh-piercing tackle vs Mild in late 90s (yellow card, no suspension). The Laws of the Game include a special paragraph for spitting under offences deserving a red card, but does not mention biting. The paragraph this goes under would be "If a player attacks another player" and leads to a red card. Attacks can be of many kinds (I speak as a former ref), and I'm glad it's not defined, because it is extreme and should be so. But I don't think Suarez's attack on Chiellini was worse than many other attacks in modern football. Possibly more primitive and uncommon, yet none of those are grounds for prolongening suspensions.
So, I can see a four game suspension (or longer) for his attack, but I think throwing him out of the World Cup "on principle" would be sending plenty of bad messages about how spitting and head-butting is relatively fine.
I cannot agree with this. At all. It's not just biting. It's biting REPEATEDLY.
You come up with examples of other things where you refer to a single incident. A single, high-profile incident. Not someone who is biting opponents almost annually - 3 times in the space of 3.5 years.
And it's a form of violence that takes special effort to achieve. He ran at his victim and had to duck his head down to aim at the shoulder.
It's demented, and to have such a high profile player doing it is incredibly damaging to the sport.
Apparently the maximum ban that can be handed out is 2 years. It's a pity. If it were up to me he would be deregistered as a player.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Today was definitely more lowlights than highlights. The Greece v Cote d'Ivoire match was exciting, but by golly the Greeks are lucky. They scored one goal thank to a defensive howler, and the other from the penalty spot at the death.
The only genuinely impressive team today was Colombia. Costa Rica weren't that flash, but then they didn't have much to play for... but then, arguably neither did Colombia.
As for 'today', ie next matches... I don't really know what's going to happen other than expecting France to impress again. You'd think Switzerland should beat Honduras, but then I thought that in 2010 and the Swiss blew that completely. No idea what's going to happen in Group F, may well be draws.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's an interesting point about biting being 'worse' than other offences. It depends on where you are coming from; I can see the point that kicking and punching are also pretty violent.
I suppose there is an issue here about cultural norms, isn't there? It may be morally dodgy, but we sort of accept kicking as part of football, but not biting.
Even in normal street-fights, punching is different from biting, I think. Biting evokes cannibalism, dogs, and very young children.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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