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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: World Cup 2014: The truly global party
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
This article would suggest IF is wrong on most counts about Liverpool's squad costs. (The figures I have checked suggest it is pretty accurate.)
Liverpool's defence cost about the same as Arsenal's and less than Chelsea, City or United. While Johnson and Sakho may be overpriced, Flanagan was free as an academy player (Chelsea do know what those are, don't they?), Škrtel, Agger and Enrique were relatively cheap, and Cissokho and Touré were also free. Mignolet was signed for probably the going rate for a goalkeeper at that level.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Ooh, brave move from Mr Hodgson - Cole out and Shaw in the England World Cup squad apparently. Here is the BBC's report. Any thoughts, Shippies?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Fine. If you're desperate to carry the moral virtue of thriftiness then be my guest. You can fight it out with Arsenal for the Balance Sheet Trophy. Like I said before: it doesn't actually count for anything and we'll see what UEFA make of it next year.
Oh, and by the way, Chelsea have won the FA Youth cup three times in the last five years. Have that for youth development.
[ 12. May 2014, 11:54: Message edited by: Imaginary Friend ]
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
Going back to the reserve league, I like this:
quote:
Shaun Harvey, the Football League's chief executive, said: "It is our view that the objective of increasing the number of quality English players is laudable and while the report may not contain a solution that is acceptable at the current time, we should continue to engage with the commission to establish whether there is a solution that meets its stated objective but does not leave the Football League carrying a disproportionate or unreasonable burden."
Lots of nice long diplomatic words in that, but I think Marvin managed to translate him quite accurately: quote:
Awful, terrible, and should never even come close to being enacted.
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Oh, and by the way, Chelsea have won the FA Youth cup three times in the last five years. Have that for youth development.
No doubt, they have some of the world's greatest talents signed to the club in order that no one else may have them. As it happens, one of them is playing the Champions League final this year, and leaving as soon as his contract allows as he was never really signed to play for Chelsea anytime soon anyway.
I'm not sure if your remarks about balance sheets were aimed at me - I'm an Arsenal supporter myself, when it comes to English football. Feel free to mock and scoff, but Chelsea frankly did not do that much better this year.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
All I care about is that my Spurs won the match against hapless Aston Villa, even if we just slept through the second half: at least we didn't have any own goals yesterday! Onward and upward to overseas play!
Wearing my Spurs kit shirt today as I am coaching PE at school: perhaps I can have the 7-11-year-olds replay the match!
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Fine. If you're desperate to carry the moral virtue of thriftiness then be my guest. You can fight it out with Arsenal for the Balance Sheet Trophy. Like I said before: it doesn't actually count for anything and we'll see what UEFA make of it next year.
Hey, FWIW I agree Liverpool's financial management has been shite over the past few years. But ISTM more accurate to say Rodgers has achieved success despite his predecessor's profligacy, rather than because of it ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Ooh, brave move from Mr Hodgson - Cole out and Shaw in the England World Cup squad apparently. Here is the BBC's report. Any thoughts, Shippies?
In the words of the Beatles song, it's going to be a 'Long Long Long' transfer season for Southampton!
[ 12. May 2014, 17:09: Message edited by: Starbug ]
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
I'm not sure if your remarks about balance sheets were aimed at me - I'm an Arsenal supporter myself, when it comes to English football.
No, it was about the general Gooner - I'd forgotten that you supported them - so it wasn't personal. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
In the words of the Beatles song, it's going to be a 'Long Long Long' transfer season for Southampton!
You* can't have him! Or him. Or him either. Okay, you can have him if you're willing to pay £27million and he's willing to take a chance that your shambolic season was just a blip.
*General 'you' throughout...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
I'm not sure if your remarks about balance sheets were aimed at me - I'm an Arsenal supporter myself, when it comes to English football.
No, it was about the general Gooner - I'd forgotten that you supported them - so it wasn't personal.
There are days when I forget it myself. I think the key part is that the predictability of it all makes talking about Arsenal rather futile, really.
By the way, Southampton, who's your right back? I hear we need a new one or two.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
The Guardian are reporting that United have made a £27 million bid for Luke Shaw. Sky Sports say Chelsea have agreed a £32 million deal for Diego Costa. The summer is well and truly here. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
Thing about Shaw is that he's a great left back, 18 years old, and with a seemingly great personality. Those are hard to come by and that money could well be worth it if he stays for 10 years, which Shaw seems to be the kind of character to do. Those 10 years could well turn into 20 with a little luck, and that's money very well spent. So out of all the possible affairs out there, I think Shaw is one of few to actually possibly be worth those kind of sums. Sadly, because Man U seem to get him now, at least for one or two seasons ahead. Then again, if they continue their journey to the middle, their situation may be the same as for Southampton soon enough.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
Thing about Shaw is that he's a great left back, 18 years old, and with a seemingly great personality. Those are hard to come by and that money could well be worth it if he stays for 10 years, which Shaw seems to be the kind of character to do. Those 10 years could well turn into 20 with a little luck, and that's money very well spent. So out of all the possible affairs out there, I think Shaw is one of few to actually possibly be worth those kind of sums. Sadly, because Man U seem to get him now, at least for one or two seasons ahead. Then again, if they continue their journey to the middle, their situation may be the same as for Southampton soon enough.
Shaw's way better for £27m than, say, Fellaini (who is now worth about £2.7m). For one thing Man Utd need a new left-back (among other things) and there's always a chance that he could do what another former Southampton left-back did. You know, the Welsh one who is now at Real Madrid.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
I agree with all that about Luke Shaw; £27million could prove to be a bargain. But, likewise, he could fail to fulfil his massive potential - he's 18, for goodness' sake! So I won't be devastated if Saints do sell him for £27million or so, especially if they spend the money wisely. A top-notch centre back (Caulker from Cardiff, perhaps - is he good enough...?) and a striker please.
That Danny Ings guy at Burnley (where Unlucky Jay Rodriguez came from, oddly enough) was heavily linked with Southampton back in January; I wonder if he could make the step up to the Premier League. Interesting times ahead...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Tim Sherwood sacked - Southampton manager Pochettino is the favourite to take over. You can leave him alone as well!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem
Boooo! Yes, you can buy the Premiership title.
The skills that Man City displayed cannot simply be down to money. The players are bought as individuals, but they played as a team. Now how do you think that level of teamwork was bought?
The truth is, it wasn't. Yes, of course money is a factor, as all the clubs know, but to say that the title was bought is rather simplistic (to put it politely). What is stopping other clubs learning to play like City? Money? I don't think so. It doesn't cost money for two healthy men to pass a ball to each other, does it?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem
Boooo! Yes, you can buy the Premiership title.
The skills that Man City displayed cannot simply be down to money. The players are bought as individuals, but they played as a team. Now how do you think that level of teamwork was bought?
The truth is, it wasn't. Yes, of course money is a factor, as all the clubs know, but to say that the title was bought is rather simplistic (to put it politely). What is stopping other clubs learning to play like City? Money? I don't think so. It doesn't cost money for two healthy men to pass a ball to each other, does it?
If my conclusion was somewhat "simplistic" then so is yours. You can't compete against such teams on tuppence even if you can get them to play as a team. Money most certainly is the deciding factor because that's how you aquire the best players. FFP should not only apply to European competitions (though even when they are flouted, they only get a slap on the wrist) but to domestic competitions too. The right conclusion most definitely is that if you're an Arab oil baron or Russian oligarch all tvey have to do is pump enough money into a team and they'll eventually get what they want.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
FFP should not only apply to European competitions (though even when they are flouted, they only get a slap on the wrist) but to domestic competitions too.
IIRC, the Premier League also has its own variation of FFP which applies domestically. It's not as stringent as UEFA's version though.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
It's a load of rubbish then, innit. So lenient as to be virtually pointless.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem
If my conclusion was somewhat "simplistic" then so is yours. You can't compete against such teams on tuppence even if you can get them to play as a team. Money most certainly is the deciding factor because that's how you aquire the best players. FFP should not only apply to European competitions (though even when they are flouted, they only get a slap on the wrist) but to domestic competitions too. The right conclusion most definitely is that if you're an Arab oil baron or Russian oligarch all tvey have to do is pump enough money into a team and they'll eventually get what they want.
Yes, you need money to buy the best players. It's called the free market.
What's the alternative? Communism?
Perhaps instead of whinging, other teams could look at how City play and emulate it. After all, I am sure all the other players in the PL are as fit as City players, and so why can't they simply practise to obtain the same skills?
The truth is that we cannot have it both ways. We cannot run a free market and then moan when it doesn't go our way. That is just sour grapes.
By the way, I'm a City fan, and I would have said the same thing if we hadn't won the title.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
What's the alternative? Communism?
In a sporting context, I believe it's called the NFL. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
I think City are doing the PL and football league a service by spending money to raise the bar. Instead of whinging, other teams should rise to the challenge, which does not necessarily mean having to spend the same amount of money. Just play decent football.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Bollocks! It's about a level playing field. Spending lots of cash on players is fine if you can genuinely generate the money through good business, but to have someone throw endless amounts of money whilst essentially operating at a loss is simply unfair. As I said, however well you get a group of players to play together, a team built on tuppence will never be as good as a team built on an endless fortune, which is fine, as long as it's done fairly, which at the moment I believe it isn't.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Please could you provide a list of teams "built on tuppence". I am not aware of any.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
Etymological, I think when UEFA and FIFA, two of the world's most corrupt organizations, are beginning to think that the playing field might be unfair, I think it's fair to say that some of the conditions might not be optimal or provide people with even chances to win games and titles.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Yes, you need money to buy the best players. It's called the free market.
What's the alternative? Communism?
We have only two alternatives set before us. Either a free market, or communism. There are no other possibilities ![[Frown]](frown.gif) I guess we can only go with the free market then...
Money has spoilt football. Proper financial fair play, that is actually enforced with disqualification from competitions for breaches etc., can't come quick enough for me. It does seem to be on its way - about time.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Bollocks! It's about a level playing field.
(Even as a Chelsea supporter) I see where you're coming from and I'm behind your general point of view. The amount of money in football currently is ghastly, and the fact that most of it has gone into the pockets of players and agents is far from ideal too.
But.
The way I understand your point of view (and please correct me if I have it wrong) the kind of FFP that you are in favour of actually cements the current iniquities into the system. It sounds great to say that clubs should only spend what they earn, but the problem is that some clubs (United, Chelsea, Liverpool, City, Arsenal to an extent) currently earn much more than others. If you say "no more sugar daddies" then clubs on the cusp of competing for the top places (Spurs, Everton, Southampton) won't be able to have that extra injection of cash that you rightly say they need to compete.
And this works further down the league too. For example, Aston Villa are currently pretty much up for sale. Their only hope to get back to a comfortable mid-table position or better any time soon is to operate at a loss while they bring in new players and work their way towards a European spot. FFP would deny them that opportunity.
So I am against the kind of FFP rules that UEFA have at the moment. Not because I think that Chelsea benefit from them (although they probably do to a degree) but because they stop any other club getting the kind of boost that Chelsea did in 2005 when Abramovich bought them. That's not fair. What I think would work better is a salary cap.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I wouldn't be against a salary cap. It works fine in the NHL, for instance, and they still attract the best players.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
How about less of the money overall to the rich clubs, reinstating different European cups and cutting down on the prize money for the Champions League to put the Europa League more on par and others as well? There's no real reason for the money to be that big in the Champions League, the clubs already make money from the games and from the prestige...
But then, Spain would have to go first on that, given that they don't split the TV money AT ALL, and we all know Real and Barça letting go of the money is just not gonna happen.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
The Guardian are reporting that United have made a £27 million bid for Luke Shaw.
The interesting question is who made the bid given that United do not currently have a manager ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
After all, I am sure all the other players in the PL are as fit as City players, and so why can't they simply practise to obtain the same skills?
Because when they do that, City comes along with a fat cheque for their club.
quote:
We cannot run a free market and then moan when it doesn't go our way.
Do we want to run a free market? As well as sugar daddies, it also gives us leveraged buyouts and people like the Glazers or Gillett & Hicks. It doesn't seem right that you can effectively buy a club with its own money, even though in practical terms it's no different from a mortgage on commercial premises.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
The Guardian are reporting that United have made a £27 million bid for Luke Shaw.
The interesting question is who made the bid given that United do not currently have a manager ...
I thought Ed Woodward was the guy in charge of that sort of thing at United these days.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
Etymological, I think when UEFA and FIFA, two of the world's most corrupt organizations, are beginning to think that the playing field might be unfair, I think it's fair to say that some of the conditions might not be optimal or provide people with even chances to win games and titles.
The last thing they're worried about is fairness across the board. The Financial Fair Play regulations have come in because they prevent any upstart little clubs from getting a super-rich oil sheik or Russian oligarch to pay for them to threaten the Big Clubs. It's all about making sure that the Real Madrids, Bayern Munichs and Manchester Uniteds stay at the top of the pile without any more Chelseas or Manchester Citys suddenly becoming rich enough to usurp their crowns.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
After all, I am sure all the other players in the PL are as fit as City players, and so why can't they simply practise to obtain the same skills?
Because when they do that, City comes along with a fat cheque for their club.
More importantly, it's simply not possible for any old player to train really hard and become world-class. There's such a thing as natural talent, and you've either got it or you haven't.
EE's implication that the only reason Fabian Delph isn't as skilled a midfielder as Xavi is because he doesn't train as hard is, frankly, ridiculous.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
More importantly, it's simply not possible for any old player to train really hard and become world-class. There's such a thing as natural talent, and you've either got it or you haven't.
EE's implication that the only reason Fabian Delph isn't as skilled a midfielder as Xavi is because he doesn't train as hard is, frankly, ridiculous.
Well, do feel free to ridicule my view as much as you like, but I find it "frankly ridiculous" that the purchase of individual players - no matter how supposedly naturally talented - can magically morph into a successful team. You can have eleven really great players and a truly crap team, or you can achieve success by bringing out the best in individual players by teaching and training them to work as a team. Now given that the market is not for teams, but for individual players, then it follows logically that the teamwork required to be successful cannot be bought with money.
So the idea that you can just buy success is a rather slipshod argument. If that were true, then how come City lost to Wigan in the FA cup last year and then again this year? Surely City should win every game against a financially inferior opponent, according to your rather strange logic. And how was the game against QPR two years ago (when City won the title) the result of just money? Was Aguero's last gasp goal bought with money? How? Did we bribe the QPR defenders to go to sleep at that point in the game? Or perhaps we knew we would win the game - thanks to our financial superiority - and we were just giving QPR a chance until the last few minutes. Yeah. That must be it!!
[ 14. May 2014, 09:31: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Exceptions. One offs. They prove nothing. You're talking bollocks!
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
An example proves nothing (if it can be categorised as a "one off").
I'll remember that pearl of wisdom!
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Just remember that tackles from behind and studs-up challenges are just as frowned upon in The Circus as they are on the football pitch. I'm not saying that anyone has crossed the line, but a yellow card and a directive to keep personal attacks in Hell may be in order shortly.
Imaginary Friend,
Circus Host
[Edited for code.]
[ 14. May 2014, 10:23: Message edited by: Imaginary Friend ]
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Just remember that tackles from behind and studs-up challenges are just as frowned upon in The Circus as they are on the football pitch....
Imaginary Friend,
Circus Host
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
EE,
Are you arguing then that Man City and Chelsea with their current managers and coaching staff would have achieved the same amount of success on a shoestring budget?
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So the idea that you can just buy success is a rather slipshod argument.
Allow me to present some hard data: the Premiership-era (so starting with the 92/93 season) final league positions of Manchester City. See if you can spot the point at which the club became ludicrously rich:
9 16 17 18 14(C) 22(C) 3(L1) 2(C) 18 1(C) 9 16 8 15 14 9 10 5 3 1 2 1
[(C) = Championship, (L1) = League 1]
Money can't guarantee success, especially not in any one specific game. But the figures don't lie - a massive injection of cash (and the better quality of player that it was able to purchase) turned City from an average mid-table side into one permanently challenging at the top of the table. There's no reason to suppose that a similar injection of cash couldn't do exactly the same thing for any other average mid-table side (Stoke, Swansea, Newcastle, etc.).
quote:
Was Aguero's last gasp goal bought with money? How?
Because without that money Aguero wouldn't even have been playing for you!
[ 14. May 2014, 12:32: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem
Are you arguing then that Man City and Chelsea with their current managers and coaching staff would have achieved the same amount of success on a shoestring budget?
Please define "shoestring budget".
And is any team in the Premier League on such a budget?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
Well, for a few years Arsène Wenger was making more money from the sale of players than he was spending on transfer fees. Which to me constitutes a negative budget, at least in terms of transfer policy.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Marvin -
I am not disputing that money is a factor. Of course it is, because of the operation of the free market. What I dispute is the claim that somehow City 'bought' the title, with the implication that it is bought in much the same way that someone could buy their driving licence off a corrupt examiner.
I'll temper my language for fear of a yellow card - or worse - but really if people are going to make this kind of claim, then they ought to explain why City ever lose to 'poorer' teams. If a 'poorer' team can beat City once, then they can do it twice, three times and more. And other 'poorer' teams can do it as well. QPR nearly won that game two years ago, therefore for most of the game the QPR players were superior to the City players. Sorry, but that is the truth, because results don't lie. Only in extra time can we say that City were superior, and this might have had something to do with QPR realising they were safe and they lost their concentration. Therefore the title two years ago was a bit of a fluke, I'll admit. I am sure that there must be hundreds of players "on the market" who could have scored the goal that Aguero scored. That kind of goal was not written in Aguero's genes, never to be achieved by anyone else.
But if money has 'bought' anything, it has 'bought' a certain attractive kind of football, and the most sensible response from other teams is to learn from it. Raising the bar might not be good for some teams (who refuse to adapt), but it is certainly good for the sport, and most importantly for the fans, who can actually enjoy watching a whole game instead of enduring the predictable hoofing the ball and Championship-style "football tennis" while patiently waiting for a goal.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Relatively speaking yes, the smaller Premiership clubs are on a shoestring budget compared to the likes of Chelsea and Man City. That is undeniable. It is also undeniable that endless amounts of cash buys better quality players. There has to be an element of fairness in it. As was suggested, a salary cap would level the playing field somewhat.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem
Are you arguing then that Man City and Chelsea with their current managers and coaching staff would have achieved the same amount of success on a shoestring budget?
Please define "shoestring budget".
And is any team in the Premier League on such a budget?
This table is from last year, but it shows the gap between the rich clubs and the less-rich ones. The median annual salary exenditure would appear to be £62m - less than half that of City, Chelsea, United, Arsenal and Liverpool.
How many of their star players would any of those five clubs be able to hold on to if they were restricted to that amount?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Buy, yes. I don't take that back. Pump enough money into a club and you'll eventually get what you want. Chelsea snd Man City have proven, despite the odd hiccup on the way. You talk about the freemarket, but where else in the freemarket would a business be allowed to essentially work at a loss as Chelsea and Man City have?
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Marvin -
I am not disputing that money is a factor. Of course it is, because of the operation of the free market. What I dispute is the claim that somehow City 'bought' the title, with the implication that it is bought in much the same way that someone could buy their driving licence off a corrupt examiner.
I would dispute it as well, because these days having big money only really buys you the ability to compete for the title against the other rich clubs.
quote:
I'll temper my language for fear of a yellow card - or worse - but really if people are going to make this kind of claim, then they ought to explain why City ever lose to 'poorer' teams.
Because one-off results can always happen. But over a whole season the teams that can afford to buy the best players will inevitably lose far fewer games against poorer teams than those that cannot.
quote:
If a 'poorer' team can beat City once, then they can do it twice, three times and more.
Sure. And if two dice can be rolled with the result of 12 once, that can happen two or three times. It's not very likely though.
quote:
And other 'poorer' teams can do it as well. QPR nearly won that game two years ago, therefore for most of the game the QPR players were superior to the City players. Sorry, but that is the truth, because results don't lie.
If results don't lie, then explain the sudden marked improvement in City's league positions demonstrated in my earlier post.
quote:
But if money has 'bought' anything, it has 'bought' a certain attractive kind of football, and the most sensible response from other teams is to learn from it. Raising the bar might not be good for some teams (who refuse to adapt), but it is certainly good for the sport, and most importantly for the fans, who can actually enjoy watching a whole game instead of enduring the predictable hoofing the ball and Championship-style "football tennis" while patiently waiting for a goal.
What money has bought is a far better quality of player. Torquay United could attempt to play the same sort of attractive football as City, but you and I both know that without the players to pull it off they wouldn't get anywhere near the Premiership, let alone the title. And those players can only be acquired if the club has the financial resources to attract them.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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