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Source: (consider it) Thread: World Cup 2014: The truly global party
Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

So the idea that you can just buy success is a rather slipshod argument.

Well, let's look at your "training harder" solution in detail. During Rodgers' tenure at Liverpool, Suárez has gone from a £23m player to a £40m player, Sturridge is probably worth £20m instead of £12m, and Sterling is maybe £11m instead of free*. Which is testament to a lot of effort on the manager's and coaches' part. But City don't have to make that effort, because they can buy £40m players out of the box.

Yes, it's possible to waste money, but that's easier with a sugar daddy as well. Chelsea were hurt a lot less by buying Torres for £50m than Liverpool were hurt buying Carroll, Adam and Downing for inflated sums.

* Feel free to dispute the exact valuations. The point is that those players have increased in worth and skill.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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quetzalcoatl
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I don't see how anyone can deny that a lot of money will bring about better results, generally. Of course, a ton of good players does not guarantee a team which gels together, but it gives you a platform. Chelsea have spent, what, two billion in 10 years; City, I think, over a billion, under Mansour.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
City, I think, over a billion, under Mansour.

And if Mansour had decided to spend that money on West Ham United instead of Manchester City (the clubs were separated by a single point in the season before Mansour bought the club), then West Ham would in all probability be the ones with their hands on the trophy right now.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Imaginary Friend

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
You talk about the freemarket, but where else in the freemarket would a business be allowed to essentially work at a loss as Chelsea and Man City have?

Surely that happens all the time in Silicon Valley?

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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quetzalcoatl
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At the same time, I don't see much point in griping about big money in football. That's just the way it is. You might as well complain that Clooney is paid twenty million for a film.

I suppose if you follow a lower club, whether Stoke or Torquay, you either sit around griping, or just enjoy your team for what it is. I sometimes watch the teams on the local playing fields, and it's good fun.

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An die Freude
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
What money has bought is a far better quality of player. Torquay United could attempt to play the same sort of attractive football as City, but you and I both know that without the players to pull it off they wouldn't get anywhere near the Premiership, let alone the title. And those players can only be acquired if the club has the financial resources to attract them.

But wasn't this what Swansea did, that got them to 8th place two years ago or so?

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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH

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Imaginary Friend

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So, it's the day of the FA Cup final. Formerly the central day in England's footballing calendar, now fighting for recognition with a million other things going on. Shame.

But come on Hull!

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I wouldn't be against a salary cap. It works fine in the NHL, for instance, and they still attract the best players.

As a supporter of a team working within a salary cap structure, I would suggest any league think long and hard before it goes down that route.

You will end up with strikers and midfield generals getting a lot of money, due to the need for such players. LB and RB's and keepers, which are widely seen to be the positions where you can always find somebody else, would get relative pittances (League 1 defender wages likely).

Rooney gets 300K a week while Shaw would get 5K.

Imagine what that will do to a dressing room full of alpha males surrounded by the incessant British sports media.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
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And yes I had a fine late afternoon watching Jermaine Defoe score a stunning goal set up by a journeyman DM who played most of his days at Bristol City while watching Thiery Henry weave around and act threatening in front of 20 000 people stamping our feet and all having a good time in the 10 degree but occasionally sunny weather, ended by a goal from, of all people, Luke Moore, who couldn't score for West Brom.

MLS is a very different game and can't be compared realistically to any level anywhere else due to its rules and distances travelled and salary cap and weather.

But it is my local team, which, much to Sky's chagrin, is still at the heart of most world football.

Looking forward to the World Cup where, when Italy wins a game, 100 000 Italians go dancing in the streets. The English just have a few more beers and take the subway home. [Biased] And then there are the Koreans......

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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deano
princess
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We'll there we go. The worst kept secret in football - for this week at least!

Van Gaal has been appointed as our manager on a 3 year deal.

Arden Robben... Come on down!!! Lovely. Or should that be fall on down? Either way I'm not complaining.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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deano
princess
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Just seen this interview with Luke Chadwick formerly of Louis' Legion (Old Trafford branch).

I always rated him as a youngster then lost track of him when he left. He's just been promoted back into the Football League with Cambridge United, which were his boyhood club. I'm happy for the man. Seems a nice bloke.

Not posting this appropros of anything except I thought it was a good story.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Imaginary Friend

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Anyone watching the Championship Playoff Final?

Or the Champions' League final later?

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492

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When's it on in North America? I had a sort of career-day writing prompt yesterday with my 9-year-olds: I asked them what did they want to do for a living once they finished their education. Several of the Mexican-American lads wanted to play world football. I advised some of them to emigrate to England and join up with under-19 and under-21 teams such as we have with Spurs. Most of the girls were uninterested and wanted to be school teachers!

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.

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Imaginary Friend

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Kickoff is 20.45 CET, so I think that becomes 11.45 when you account for the nine hour time difference to the west coast.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Imaginary Friend

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# 186

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Vamos Atléti!

What was that from Casillas for the goal? Hilarious.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Ricardus
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Ouch. Poor Atlético.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
So, it's the day of the FA Cup final. Formerly the central day in England's footballing calendar, now fighting for recognition with a million other things going on. Shame.

But come on Hull!

I had to check back to make sure that really happened. Yes, yes it did.

iF, you're our resident expert on these matters: are the other laws of nature still working, now that "Arsenal must choke when it counts" seems to have gone on hiatus? Should I try throwing myself at the ground and missing or making two things occupy the same place at the same time?

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Imaginary Friend

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# 186

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I believe it's what those in the trade call a quantum fluctuation. It's a pretty massive one, to be fair. But it's just a manifestation of the fact that classically forbidden things do happen sometime. And the larger the event, the shorter it's duration.

[Biased]

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Imaginary Friend

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# 186

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So... The World Cup.

Thoughts, predictions, aspirations, random musings?

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
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Come the last eight I think I'll be rooting for Belgium. [Frown]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492

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I hope Ballyotelli doesn't make the Italian team. It would be nice to see an English-speaking country do well!

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.

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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630

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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
So... The World Cup.

Thoughts, predictions, aspirations, random musings?

My bet is on England to get to the quarters. I would also say that a Germany / Argentina final is my prediction.

Looking forward to this one, as for once the matched mainly fall quite nicely for the UK - 5pm and 8pm kick off's are ok, although the 2am ones will be hard work!

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South Coast Kevin
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I'd love Belgium or Colombia to do well. It'd be great for there to be a new winner, IMO. As for England, I was very pessimistic about our chances of even reaching Round 2 but Italy drew with Luxembourg (Luxembourg!) last night having fielded a pretty strong team. Look. Apparently Italy are on a very poor run of form so maybe England do stand a chance...

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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Imaginary Friend

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I can't be doing with the bother of supporting England. It's too much drama with the media going bananas over the slightest little thing. I'll pretty much just be hoping that the Chelsea boys do well.

But if I had to predict what I think will happen to Roy's boys, I reckon they'll lose to Italy (they have a habit of looking awful in the run-up to a tournament but then doing fine when the time comes), that Suarez will take them apart so they'll lose that one too, and that we'll manage an underwhelming draw against Costa Rica.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Ad Orientem
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Draw against Italy, beat Uruguay and Costa Rica. Then win the World Cup.
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Jonah the Whale

Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244

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Which England player do you suppose Suarez will bite first?
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Which England player do you suppose Suarez will bite first?

Phil Jagielka. I'm not sure which toe though.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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I just got Costa Rica in our sweepstake. Yet another good reason not to bother with England!

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Ad Orientem
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What? Believe. That's what being a fan is all about.
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Imaginary Friend

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There's belief and then there's complete irrationality. I fear supporting England tends to veer towards the latter.

[Razz]

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
There's belief and then there's complete irrationality. I fear supporting England tends to veer towards the latter.

Yep. I've not looked into it, but surely it'd be a good money-making strategy to bet against England (using UK-based bookies / exchanges), taking advantage of the irrationality of the England fanbase.

I hope England do well - I hope we win the tournament! - but I'm not very confident that we'll even make round 2.

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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It might be short-lived but at 40-1 a bet that England get no points is very attractive. Two very foreseeable results (losses to Italy and Uruguay) plus another to Costa Rica in a final group game that England must win by plenty, would see England home very early, at an undisclosed airport and time.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630

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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
There's belief and then there's complete irrationality. I fear supporting England tends to veer towards the latter.

[Razz]

You're probably right - but then as a Charlton fan I'm pretty used to irrationality. An interesting question has just occurred to me - are the fans who support England more fanatically those who support worse club teams?

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
There's belief and then there's complete irrationality. I fear supporting England tends to veer towards the latter.

[Razz]

You're probably right - but then as a Charlton fan I'm pretty used to irrationality. An interesting question has just occurred to me - are the fans who support England more fanatically those who support worse club teams?
I'd suggest that there is among "England fans" a substantial proportion who don't go for the football at all. A bit like the "Barmy Army", some of whom I'm sure think a cricket bat is a cross between a flying mammal and an insect.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Imaginary Friend

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# 186

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I didn't bother to stay up and watch the game, but it sounds like an overwhelming success for Roy's boys in Miami last night.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630

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I watched the first half, and although we kept possession pretty well we only made one or two chances. In fact the most entertaining part of it was watching the pundits try and fill 40 mins of rain delay. It made me realise how good TMS are!!

Tom

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My allotment blog

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Imaginary Friend

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# 186

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To be fair, TMS have had plenty of practise!

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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I was encouraged. Honduras were intent on defending, Sturridge alone had three clear chances and with a bit more composure would have scored at least once. An opening goal could have had an effect like Germany's opener against Armenia, which came after 52 minutes leading to a final score of 6-1.

I wasn't impressed with Baines or Jagielka TBH. Baines lost form towards the end of the season and Jags is short on match-fitness. Cahill looks in good form and in an ideal world I really would play Gerrard at right-back! I reckon Barkley has overtaken Henderson but he's unlikely to start: well worth 25 minutes though.

[ 08. June 2014, 15:30: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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I thought they played nicely going forward. The right-back position looks dodgy. Hopefully, the lack of firepower is temporary; if Sturridge has gone into a dry spell, there may be problems. I fantasized about dropping Gerard and Rooney, and playing Barkley and Ox or Sterling, but Hodgson daren't do that. Shades of Greaves being dropped.

[ 08. June 2014, 15:37: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Sipech
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# 16870

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Pele doesn't seem to reckon much of Brazil's chances, though I wonder if England's chances could be improved if we start a thread in the Hell board entitled 'Snowball'. [Devil]

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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Pele doesn't seem to reckon much of Brazil's chances, though I wonder if England's chances could be improved if we start a thread in the Hell board entitled 'Snowball'. [Devil]

Well so far they look good going forward but are a little suspect when it comes to defending. Croatia are counter attacking well.
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Timothy the Obscure

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I only got to watch parts of it (including the last 5 minutes), but Croatia looked pretty tough and Brazil looked really lucky (own goals aside). If they don't pick it up a bit, the smart money will be on Argentina.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130

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Yeah, I really didn't think Brazil looked great either. I wonder if their odds to win the tournament have slipped a bit? Needing a gift from the referee (arguably two gifts - should Neymar have got a red card for that elbow?) to get past Croatia, who are solid but not world-beaters, will not give Argentina, Spain and Germany sleepless nights...

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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True, but it wouldn't be the first time that a team started off a little rough in the opening games but became more dominant later. Brazil's group is not exactly a Group Of Death. It wouldn't surprise me if they are taking it easy here in the opening round.

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630

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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
True, but it wouldn't be the first time that a team started off a little rough in the opening games but became more dominant later. Brazil's group is not exactly a Group Of Death. It wouldn't surprise me if they are taking it easy here in the opening round.

There's starting rough and then there is playing like Spain have tonight... They have been taken apart in the second half. It has been one of the best World Cup matches I have watched in a long time. RVP has been great - his header was something else and Robben looks like the player he was about 4/5 years ago. Quick and decisive.

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deano
princess
# 12063

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You wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of Spain in their next match.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960

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Next match for Spain is against Chile. Chile are a bit weak in defence but very strong in attack, and I reckon will score against every opponent they face. The Spanish defence and indeed their whole team had have their confidence shot to ribbons by Holland, and with Chile likely to start at full pace and to score early, Spain's confidence may stay that way.

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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630

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Could Spain do an Italy and be knocked out in the group stages?

Chile did look good going forward, and passed the ball well. I'm looking forward to the Costa Rica match tonight. Be more relaxing then watching the England one and hopefully better football.

I have been impressed with the matches so far, they have been good to watch. Any one else this side of the Atlantic staying up for the Japan / Iran game?

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
....Any one else this side of the Atlantic staying up for the Japan / Iran game?

That's your pick for one of the semi finals then?
[Biased]

Cote D'Ivoire playing Japan tonight - latest game probably to get the Japanese watching.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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CONCACAF REPRESENT!!!

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged



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