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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: World Cup 2014: The truly global party
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
We weren't expecting *that* were we!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630
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Posted
Was a good game. The Uruguay defending had a lot to do with the result - at set pieces they were shocking.
Now for the stress...
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
I was very impressed with Colombia. They looked much stronger than Brazil, against a better opponent. (The weather in Manaus must be as bad as predicted--the England/Italy match looked like slow motion compared to Colombia/Greece).
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
And after the other game I have a challenge for England supporters:
In 400 words or less, state why Wayne Rooney should be in England's team for the match against Uruguay.
FWIW I reckon he was KP with boots on.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
A very interesting text by Swedish football journalist Simon Bank (text in English) about Bosnia and how football relates to culture and society, tied in with preparations for tonight's game against Argentina.
[ 15. June 2014, 11:04: Message edited by: JFH ]
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
And after the other game I have a challenge for England supporters:
In 400 words or less, state why Wayne Rooney should be in England's team for the match against Uruguay.
FWIW I reckon he was KP with boots on.
I think Hodgson will be aware that Rooney scored 7 goals in the six qualifying games; that is bound to count in his favour, as also the assist for Saturday's goal. But it seems to me, either you play him in the centre, behind Sturridge, or drop him. To play him out on the left just does not work.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
I was very impressed with Colombia. They looked much stronger than Brazil, against a better opponent. (The weather in Manaus must be as bad as predicted--the England/Italy match looked like slow motion compared to Colombia/Greece).
Neph said Colombia creamed Greece. Maybe I should find a recast.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
And after the other game I have a challenge for England supporters:
In 400 words or less, state why Wayne Rooney should be in England's team for the match against Uruguay.
FWIW I reckon he was KP with boots on.
I think Hodgson will be aware that Rooney scored 7 goals in the six qualifying games; that is bound to count in his favour, as also the assist for Saturday's goal. But it seems to me, either you play him in the centre, behind Sturridge, or drop him. To play him out on the left just does not work.
That leaves too many unanswered questions: B+.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, OK, I wasn't really answering the question, why should Rooney be in the team against Uruguay, I was explaining why he will be.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, OK, I wasn't really answering the question, why should Rooney be in the team against Uruguay, I was explaining why he will be.
No problems, I have the awful feeling he will still be in the side and Roy won't change things until it's too late (ie, when we'll need to beat Costa Rica handsomely while hoping that Italy beat Uruguay).
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
A very old joke from previous World Cups, but it still makes me laugh:
quote:
The England team visited an orphanage in Rio today. "It's heartbreaking to see their sad little faces with no hope," said Jose, aged 6.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
And after the other game I have a challenge for England supporters:
In 400 words or less, state why Wayne Rooney should be in England's team for the match against Uruguay.
FWIW I reckon he was KP with boots on.
He set up Sturridge's goal.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Right, is anyone watching the Netherlands-Australia game? Was the Cahill goal as good as the BBC Radio 5 commentators made out? Robbie Savage has just had a When Harry Met Sally cafe moment...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yeah, it was superb, van Basten-like, just after a pretty good Robben one. Two great goals, and Oz playing well.
[ 18. June 2014, 16:57: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
And now a soft penalty, softer than Brazil's in the opening game. The good news is that it was to Australia.
eta: plus an equaliser from RVP!
[ 18. June 2014, 17:15: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Right, is anyone watching the Netherlands-Australia game? Was the Cahill goal as good as the BBC Radio 5 commentators made out? Robbie Savage has just had a When Harry Met Sally cafe moment...
Judge for yourself I think it is the best goal I've seen so far this world cup - better than RVP's header.
The Spain / Chile match is interesting. Spain currently losing 2-0 and look like they might be heading out of the tournament. Chile are playing well, very well, but Spain are nothing like the side they were 2 years ago. As I type this they really should have scored. I don't know how they missed that chance...
Tom
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
Half of Australia (including me) was watching both games in Group B, even though Aust v Netherlands started at 2am local time.
I was one of the few to correctly predict that Chile would beat a demoralised Spain (see my post on previous page).
And Cahill's goal was indeed a beauty. From ~15 m out he volleyed in a long ball coming from near half-way on his right. A goal that even Van Persie, who regularly does that sort of thing, would have been proud of. And it was Cahill's allegedly "weaker" left foot.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
Following Spain's marvelous impression of Manchester United, it seems their king abdicated on the same day.
Queenie, take note!
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630
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Posted
Hey, we still have more chance than Spain to win this tournament. Not saying much but it's something to cling on to.
Posts: 6473 | From: My Sofa | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I really should have taken my own advice.
Then again, Roy will probably take, in his view a massive gamble, give Shaw and Jones a start at the back, Lallana, Barkley and Wilshire in midfield with Rooney, Sterling and Sturridge up front.
But please God, not Rooney as captain. Gary Cahill is the man for that.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
I thought Gary was England's best player yesterday (although obviously I am biased.)
But the real issue for me is about Gerrard. When are we going to break the taboo and admit that he's not a very good captain, and he's past it as a player?
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
The end of this World Cup campaign will be an obvious point for Gerrard to retire, and I'll be surprised if he doesn't step down then. He'll see the writing on the wall, surely...
And yes, I thought Cahill had an excellent game, apart from being caught out for the second goal. Where was the movement off the ball, though; where were the overlapping runs from Baines and Johnson? I thought we were far too cautious until we got desperate and really started chasing the game. Sigh.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
The end of this World Cup campaign will be an obvious point for Gerrard to retire, and I'll be surprised if he doesn't step down then. He'll see the writing on the wall, surely...
And yes, I thought Cahill had an excellent game, apart from being caught out for the second goal. Where was the movement off the ball, though; where were the overlapping runs from Baines and Johnson? I thought we were far too cautious until we got desperate and really started chasing the game. Sigh.
Overlapping is only possible if a) there's someone to overlap and b) you are confident that there is cover for your defensive work. We didn't have a lot of either.
As for movement off the ball, that has to be done intelligently, and that is the last word I would use in connection with last night's performance.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
But a narrow 4-2-3-1 formation, with no genuine wingers in the '3', is crying out for overlapping full-backs. Gerrard and Henderson should have been able to drop back and cover, all how well they would have done that is a good question.
And as for the display lacking intelligence - quite so...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Oh yes. The Gerrard taboo will be broken. Just as it was with Beckham, Ferdinand, Owen, and many others before him. The fans will insist on a scapegoat, which allows them to continue believing that England's senior men's team has an enormous talented pool of players to choose from, and also that the Titanic would have avoided the iceberg if the deckchairs had simply been arranged in a slightly different way. The fans will give him a kick in the back as he exits through the door, even if he does retire. And it will enable the FA to avoid facing the scandal of how it is that English football, despite its wealth and popularity, cannot produce a senior team that stands comparison with its peers, ie, France, Spain, Germany, Italy or the Netherlands.
As for Eng. v Uruguay, both sides were pretty poor, Suarez excepted. They both looked very nervous, England especially. Still, playing well under presure is the test of a team's strength, and England failed it.
I greatly feer that Raheem Sterling is the next to be set up as an idol, later to be cast down in fury.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
England lacked the same spark they had against Italy. Still, I'd feel twice as bad if it wasn't for the fact that England have the foundation of a potentially very good team. Hodgson could have easily gone with the same old same old but he showed balls. Respect!
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
I do hope Hodgson isn't going to be scapegoated for a (likely) early exit. He can only use the players he has.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
England lacked the same spark they had against Italy. Still, I'd feel twice as bad if it wasn't for the fact that England have the foundation of a potentially very good team. Hodgson could have easily gone with the same old same old but he showed balls. Respect!
Yes, there has been the sense at least of trying to do something different, even if it hasn't come off (although they didn't look so secure in that yesterday as they did against Italy - they didn't seem able to cope with the Uruguayans constantly pressing them and closing them down every time they got the ball, especially in the first half and first part of the second).
One thing struck me on sober reflection this morning about what us England fans are like: before the tournament, everybody was talking about lowered expectations and about how we'd struggle to even make it past the group stages. Now it looks like we're not going to get past the group stages - as most people were expecting - and suddenly it's a huge calamity and we're the worst international team in the world (which isn't true, of course: that's Spain ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ). I think us fans need to adjust our expectations as well: we had a tough group and this was always a realistic possibility. There's no point running around like the sky's falling in when it happens.
(BTW did anybody else watch the ITV coverage last night? It's the first time I've seen it during the World Cup and I couldn't help wondering if it was just me or is Glen Hoddle becoming Dennis "write the theme tune, sing the theme tune" Waterman?)
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
I think it does represent a bit of a calamity, if one takes the long view. A first-round exit of a 32-team tournament is every bit as bad as failing to quality for the (16-team) 1974 and 1978 tournaments - worse considering how far the teams who shut England out of those tournaments went. If England don't get something against Costa Rica, it will stand comparison with England's failure to quality for the (24-team) 1994 tournament. It would, arguably, be England's worst WC performance ever, and would reflect a really significant decline in English football over the last 40 years. At least in the 70s, English clubs were cleaning up in Europe.
And that's to say nothing of Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, and the Republic of Ireland. The former two qualified for the 1982 World Cup. Northern Ireland made it to the second round, beating the hosts, Spain, in the process. Wales and Northern Ireland only missed out on qualification on goal difference. Had they not, Spain '82 would have been a 24-team tournament with no fewer than 5 representatives from Britain and Ireland. Compare qualifying for this tournament: Scotland and RoI 4th from 6, NI and Wales 5th from 6th. At this rate, Gibraltar will be putting up a better effort.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
I see your point, Cod, and clearly going out in the group stages is not a good thing. I think what I meant was that this is what we were being primed to expect at this tournament, yet there seems to be a sense in some of the reaction that going out in the group stages has come as a complete shock and we should've expected (given everything we knew just before the tournament) to have got further. I also think there were mitigating factors, such as having Italy and Luis Suarez in our group...
(Or perhaps it's just because I'm a Sheffield Wednesday fan and we get used to this kind of predictable despair and failure!)
I just hope that this low represents the bottom and that we can start to build things up from here and start to build a side that can reach the later stages more consistently - and play better football. I may be wearing rose-tinted glasses, but I think there were some signs, especially in the Italy game, that this is possible; but panicking in the wake of this competition won't help us.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I thought Gary was England's best player yesterday (although obviously I am biased.)
But the real issue for me is about Gerrard. When are we going to break the taboo and admit that he's not a very good captain, and he's past it as a player?
Yes, I thought that the obsession with Rooney in the media obscured Gerard's obvious decline. He has become very slow, and poor at tackling. As a friend of mine said yesterday, the link-up play between Gerard and Suarez was awesome!
It's tempting to just play the youngsters now, but maybe they are a bit naive.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's tempting to just play the youngsters now, but maybe they are a bit naive.
Perhaps it's worth it for the Costa Rica game: the chances are we won't have anything to lose by that point in any case; but even if we do, could they realy do much worse then the more experienced players have?
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Given that I'm far more bothered about the England cricket team than I am their footballing counterparts, I must say that disappointment is an emotion that I feel very at home with.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
I agree that it is what we were primed to expect - rightly so, it seems. My hope is that it will provide some catalyst for the FA taking responsiblity for the grass roots game - which ultimately, one hopes, will generate players capable of forming an England side capable of standing comparison with the likes of Italy.
I'm not expectant, however. Nothing happened after the failure to qualify for Euro 2008 except that Steve McClaren was sacked.
It's the same in rugby, fwiw. England- more registered players than the rest of the world combined - one World Cup win. There is a curious phenomena of failure when it comes to English sports administration, albeit one that Olympics sports overcame.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
I agree that it is what we were primed to expect - rightly so, it seems. My hope is that it will provide some catalyst for the FA taking responsiblity for the grass roots game - which ultimately, one hopes, will generate players capable of forming an England side capable of standing comparison with the likes of Italy.
I'm not expectant, however. Nothing happened after the failure to qualify for Euro 2008 except that Steve McClaren was sacked.
It's the same in rugby, fwiw. England- more registered players than the rest of the world combined - one World Cup win. There is a curious phenomena of failure when it comes to English sports administration, albeit one that Olympics sports overcame.
I think also most fans (soccer) are much more tuned into their local team than England. OK, every two years, people get enthusiastic about England, but you can't compare that with the week in, week out, following of a Premiership team, or in another league. I find all the talk of too many foreign players bizarre really. Fans want to see them.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
The best ones they want to see, of course, and they've been good for the game, but the crap ones not. Of course it's cheaper to get foreign crap than to develop young English players.
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
I am, first and foremost, a cricket fan. The influx of overseas players into English first class cricket did the game a world of good, and improved the standard of the Test side too. Allowing overseas players raises the standard, so I don't think their presence is the problem.
Also, I suspect that a great many clubs in the Championship and elsewhere are happy to take on young English players and sell them onto the big clubs at a fat profit. Perhaps there just aren't very many of the required standard. Presumably clubs in Italy, Germany and elsewhere could behave the same way as English clubs if they wished, yet they seem to have more local players. For that matter, it is really telling that at any one time over the last 15 years, there has been no more than 2 or 3 players of British or Irish origin playing at top clubs on the Continent. Gareth Bale is the only example I can think of right now.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I really wasn't surprised. The priority for a long time in the UK has been club soccer, and using the international market in players to create the best possible teams. The two effects of this have been to create an "elite few" clubs, who generally take the glory, and an erosion of the opportunities for the development of UK talent.
I don't see how it can be reversed. It's difficult to see anything like the balancing factors used at club level in the NFL, baseball and basketball. There are stragetic elements at work there, designed to foster many healthy clubs (not just a few) and use the college system to advance home grown talent. Soccer in the UK is now dominated completely by money and short term means to obtain/maintain club success. I don't think these have been good for the game overall. International team performance is paert of a more general problem.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I'm not sure what 'good for the game overall' means. Fans don't want the Premiership to be watered down in order to improve the England team - well, I don't think many of them do.
The irony is that I can watch Suarez on TV most weeks, and also other great foreign players. I can't see the problem really.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
I reckon the priority in all of England's peer group is club soccer, and in each case, the professional domestic game is dominated by a handful of clubs - in most cases two or three. So I don't see that England is so very different.
I suspect the difference is that the amateur game (where all players start) is better organised elsewhere than in the home nations and ROI, particularly for the youth.
FWIW, it isn't at all unlikely that Eng will make the second round. I'd expect Italy to beat Costa Rica. I'd also expect Italy to beat Uruguay, although the Italians wouldn't need to win it to finish top. If England beat Costa Rica by two, they'd finish in second place.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think Italy will draw one of those games, as they will start to coast.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
That is, of course, the risk. If Italy and England beat Costa Rica, Italy and Uruguay will know that a draw will see them both through. Also, Uruguay's goal difference would require them to beat Italy by at least a couple to top the group. It won't happen. Mind you, the Italians are so much better than Uruguay, that they might coast to a win anyway.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think Italy will draw one of those games, as they will start to coast.
That might depend on whether Italy would prefer to face England or Uruguay later on.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
But remember guys, if Costa Rica beat England, we can all relax.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Apparently Roy Hodgson is still undecided where to put Rooney... aisle or window.
At least a Man U player scored. Pity the Liverpool players assisted another Liverpool player to score as well.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Any day that Liverpool outscores Man U is a good one for me.
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
My hope is that it will provide some catalyst for the FA taking responsiblity for the grass roots game - which ultimately, one hopes, will generate players capable of forming an England side capable of standing comparison with the likes of Italy.
Such plans are already being worked on: The FA's proposed "League 3" will pit the best talent in the U21 teams of Premiership clubs against the top half of what is now the conference. The kids will get hacked to bits by seasoned journeymen playing on rubbish pitches with poor officiating. This will be perfect preparation for taking on the best in the world on the largest global stage. The future is bright!
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Despite the efforts of the referee to keep England in the World Cup, Costa Rica are 1-0 up at half-time against Italy.
I'd like England to continue, but they don't deserve to and how does one support any side with Balotelli in?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'd like England to continue, but they don't deserve to and how does one support any side with Balotelli in?
At least Balotelli isn't a racist who head-butts referees and bites other players.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Soooo, Costa Rica for the Cup ... .
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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