homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » June Book Group - "The Rosie Project" by Graham Simsion (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: June Book Group - "The Rosie Project" by Graham Simsion
MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228

 - Posted      Profile for MSHB   Email MSHB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zeke:
According to the people who have posted here who are on the spectrum themselves, the depiction is somewhat inaccurate, being from an outsider. I would be interested in their assessment of "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time", not knowing whether the author is depicting ASD people accurately there either.

...

3. I think this would make a great film, along the lines of "Rain Man," which may also strike the ASD people here as inaccurate, but did indeed give some insight into what a person like this may be coping with (although it may also be seen as insulting by an insider).

I have never read "The Curious Incident" nor watched "Rain Man". Neither of them attracts me, nor has anything I have read or heard about them suggested to me that they would help me understand myself better as someone on the spectrum who was only diagnosed in middle age and wants to learn more about myself.

Fineline does discuss The Curious Incident (TCI) earlier in this thread and says that TCI does not deal very well with the inner emotional life of the person on the spectrum. So I am guessing - from that and other things I have read about it elsewhere - that TCI is not a faithful depiction of what it is like to be on the spectrum. That is certainly one of the reasons I have not wanted to read it myself: too many people on the spectrum have rated it down.

As for "Rain Man", I guess it did raise public awareness of the existence of autism, and indicated that autism need not be synonymous with intellectual disability or the inability to speak. But it has perpetuated a number of myths about autism: especially the myth of the autistic savant (only a small minority of autistic people have super skills) and also the idea that autism is necessarily a severe condition (Raymond lives in a "mental institution", according to Wikipedia's description of the film).

As a film, I wonder if it would be able to convey the inner life of an autistic person very well - in that sense it may perpetuate popular misconceptions because a film needn't show how the autistic person's thought is different to what the non-autistic society thinks it must be. A film can get by with just showing someone's behaviour, and there is a long history of non-autistic people misunderstanding autistic behaviour.

--------------------
MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade

Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143

 - Posted      Profile for Fineline   Email Fineline   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
To expand on my view of The Curious Incident, another thing I didn't like about it is that it perpetuates the myth that autistic people have no empathy - Christopher explains very clearly how he is completely unable to see anyone's perspective, and demonstrates that he doesn't care about his dad's feelings, or feel any emotions for his dad, other than wanting his dad to act a certain way. I think that's such a harmful stereotype - because then people can believe that autistic people can't care about them or love them, and that must be very sad for parents to believe that of their children.

However, I thought the author made a pretty good attempt at showing the logical thought processes, and also the inability to filter out sensory input. But as I said earlier, he clearly has no idea as to the emotional life of autistic people - as soon as Christopher gets emotional, he blanks out, gets violent, and loses awareness along with all memory of what happened. I suppose it might look like that to non-autistic people when an autistic person has a meltdown, but again, this is an external view, rather than knowing what's actually going on in the person's head.

Something I noticed about both The Curious Incident and The Rosie Project is a very strong anti-religion attitude from the protagonists - there seems to be an idea that autistic people can't possibly believe in God because such a belief is illogical. As if logic is the only thought process we can do! This does seem to be a common stereotype about autistic people that - I remember reading a blog post by Daniel Tammet (an autistic savant) which talks about his faith, and several people commented that he can't possibly be a Christian if he's autistic, because it's incompatible with autistic thinking! Along with the stereotype that he can't be a Christian if he's gay - several comments saying that too. Apparently autistic people can't be Christians and gay people can't be Christians!

I saw Rain Man years ago, when I was a teenager, and again more recently. I actually thought Dustin Hoffman did a good job of acting an autistic person, but of course, all autistic people are different, and very few are savants (if I drop a box of matches all over the floor, I don't automatically see how many I dropped - nor can I work out what day someone was born on from their date of birth). I guess, like The Curious Incident, Rain Man had an important role in raising public awareness of autism, but this has both its pros and cons. A much better movie about autism is Snow Cake, where Sigourney Weaver plays an autistic woman, and there's a great scene where her know-it-all neighbour says 'Oh that's okay, I know all about autism - I saw that movie' - indicating that for many people, Rain Man is their only knowledge of autism and they think they know all about it as a result. A Curious Incident did the same for Aspergers - I've had people say I can't possibly have Aspergers because I'm not like Christopher, as I can take the tube independently and don't sit on a bench wailing and rocking!

Unlike MSHB, I deliberately read novels which involve Aspergers or autism, no matter how badly they are portrayed, simply because it's helpful to know what sort of stereotypes I'm up against if I tell people I have Aspergers. That way, I know what myths I may have to correct (because people don't always tell you what they're assuming).

Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That sitting on a bench rocking and wailing is again an outsiders observation of an autistic person in meltdown - I would assume sensory overload and needing to go somewhere quiet.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143

 - Posted      Profile for Fineline   Email Fineline   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
That sitting on a bench rocking and wailing is again an outsiders observation of an autistic person in meltdown - I would assume sensory overload and needing to go somewhere quiet.

Yes, definitely. And an assumption that because some autistic people do this in public then all would, in every situation. I've certainly felt like sitting on a bench and wailing and rocking when using the London underground, but unlike Christopher (who is using it for the first time and is still a child, as well as being a fictional character) I am also aware that it's best to get where I'm going as quickly as possible, to get out of the situation, and also that I would get odd reactions if I started to wail and rock in public, and these reactions would make me more stressed and overwhelmed. And I've also learnt to build up strategies - walking where possible, learning what times the underground (or whatever transport system I'm using) is less likely to be busy. And anyway, I hated London so much I moved to a completely different part of the UK, where life is quieter and less expensive and less crowded. If Christopher were a real person he would also build up strategies and ways of coping - one snapshot of an autistic person's behaviour is not their entire way of being.

People often don't realise that what happens inside a person (such as sensory overload) can be expressed outwardly in very different ways. In The Rosie Project, Don's way of coping is to act like he's at the dentist - just expect it to be bad and wait for it to be over. I thought it was good that the novel portrayed this, as it shows an alternative to the wailing and rocking thing that people immediately associate with autism. I do the 'at the dentist' thing when I'm in a situation where I can't avoid sensory overload. But what the novel doesn't convey is the exhausting effect this has and how it makes you zoned out and less able to process what's going on around you and interact with people. And that actually it's better, if you can, to find a way to avoid the sensory overload by finding alternatives to achieve what you want to achieve.

It frustrated me that Don did his 'at the dentist' thing whenever Rosie wanted him to do things her way, and that this was portrayed as a good thing - that he was learning to adapt and be open minded. To me, that's kind of like a straight person forcing a gay person to be straight for a couple of days, to have sex with the opposite sex, just to experience what it's like to fit in and be norma, and so become more open minded. A far healthier alternative would have been for Don to explain to Rosie the difficulties it was causing him and for her to listen and learn to understand him a bit, and find a compromise that doesn't involve him sitting back passively as if he's at the dentist, so that they could both be free to be themselves and have their particular needs met.

Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228

 - Posted      Profile for MSHB   Email MSHB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
Unlike MSHB, I deliberately read novels which involve Aspergers or autism, no matter how badly they are portrayed, simply because it's helpful to know what sort of stereotypes I'm up against if I tell people I have Aspergers. That way, I know what myths I may have to correct (because people don't always tell you what they're assuming).

I find it difficult to persist with books unless they grab my attention in some way. Of the three Aspie novels I deliberately sought out last year, The Rosie Project was the least compelling - the one I least want to read again. I guess that I am an impulsive reader - and will reread something that I like many times over, while being unable to pick up a book that doesn't excite me. I don't think I am noted, at least in my own mind, for strong will power (or for self-organisation).

Example: I read the first two Harry Potter books many times over, mostly in a foreign language that was my special interest at the time. The strange side effect of this is that I now know quite a few words related to wizardy in an obscure foreign language... which will no doubt come in handy if I visit parts of northern Europe and want to inquire about wands or magic potions. Meanwhile there are books that I "ought" to read, e.g. for work, but don't feel a flicker of interest in. I guess for me, Rain Man and The Curious Incident fall into the latter group of books and movies.

--------------------
MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade

Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271

 - Posted      Profile for Sarasa   Email Sarasa   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Although I was the one who suggested the book in the first place, I guess now is the time to confess, that although I enjoyed it the first time, when I tried re-reading it ahead of discussing it I put it down about 10% of the way through. For instance, the first time I read it I enjoyed the lecture to the 'Aspie Group', this time it just seemed like a device so the reader could be aware of where Don was coming from.

I still think it has the potential to be a good film, though.

--------------------
'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.

Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143

 - Posted      Profile for Fineline   Email Fineline   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's interesting that it is never stated outright in the book that Don has Aspergers, nor does he ever express any thought that he may have it (at least, I think he doesn't - towards the end of the book, I was getting so fed up of it that I was skimming quite a bit, so I might have missed that bit!). So the idea of Aspergers is introduced by that lecture, and then there are a couple of characters who say things very indirectly to hint that they think Don has it, but those hints of course go over his head, so it's kind of like a joke he's not in on.

I was a bit disappointed by that - not just because it's totally unrealistic, but also because it would have added a whole dimension to the novel to have him understand that his way of processing the world is what society has labelled as 'Asperger Syndrome', and to deal with that and understand himself, and how others see him, better. This sort of self knowledge would also enable the readers to empathise with him and respect him more as an equal, rather than someone to laugh at or pity or see as an entertaining oddity.

Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Persephone Hazard

Ship's Wench
# 4648

 - Posted      Profile for Persephone Hazard   Author's homepage   Email Persephone Hazard   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
That sitting on a bench rocking and wailing is again an outsiders observation of an autistic person in meltdown - I would assume sensory overload and needing to go somewhere quiet.

It is true, though, that a lot of autistic children do this very frequently - it's something my mum experienced a great deal of as a special needs teacher. It's also an occasional coping mechanism of at least one friend of mine who is in his early thirties, but only when something totally unexpected happens that he finds difficult in a situation when he was already stressed.

--------------------
A picture is worth a thousand words, but it's a lot easier to make up a thousand words than one decent picture. - ken.

Posts: 1645 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools