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Source: (consider it) Thread: British Values
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

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In the wake of the serious allegations about the 'Trojan horse' schools in Birmingham, one of the fallouts has been the proposal to "teach British values" in schools (link:Daily Fail)

This has prompted some mockery (a British value in itself?) of people trying to define British values, often involving queuing, tutting, drinking tea and the like.

Leaving aside the serious discussion about the schools for another board, what do shipmates here in Heaven think could be classed as a "British value"?

Contributions are welcome from overseas, of course. Always good to see ourselves as others see us.

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

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Jane R
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I am British. Therefore, "British values" are whatever I say they are. [Devil]

<serious point here> I will not cease to be British if I suddenly give up drinking tea or develop a passion for petanque.

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Amos

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Self-deprecation

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Amos

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Apologies for the double post.
This is a moment when I'm desperately sad that ken is not around to appear and tell us eloquently, accurately, hilariously, and at length, exactly what British values are. He would, you know.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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HCH
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Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.
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GCabot
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Speaking as an American, the two things that come to mind are dry wit and a stiff upper lip.

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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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Grumbling and muttering. It is something the English, Welsh and and Scots all do well. In many other respects we differ so much it is difficult to specify "British Values".

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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British people value the existence of a topic of conversation which is appropriate on every occasion, namely, the weather, and appreciate the fact that our weather is sufficiently changeable and unpredictable as to keep this topic of conversation relevant at all times.
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Oscar the Grouch

Adopted Cascadian
# 1916

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By "British values" I am going to assume that we mean Britain at its best. Sadly, from what I know of Michael Gove, I doubt that we would agree on what are true British values.

Above all, tolerance and welcome. It is no surprise that so many people from other nations have made their way to Britain over the years. There has always been a tendency to accept strangers and make room for them (and then adopt their recipes and some of their language).

Secondly, a deep desire for fairness. At our best, I think we get deeply uncomfortable when we experience any forms of injustice. We don't tend to articulate it well - but the general thought is "that's not the done thing."

Thirdly, a deep suspicion of extremes of belief or attitude. We like things to be balanced and moderate. Getting too worked up about anything is alien to our nature (unless it is football or cricket).

We Brits are a mongrel race and should be proud of it.

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Penny S
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# 14768

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The values of John Ball, Jack Straw (the one and only original), Wat Tyler, Jack Cade, Michael an Gof, Nicholas Flamenk, the Levellers, The Chartists, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, Wycliffe, John Bunyan, George Fox, the Wesleys, the Booths, Benjamin Waugh (only found out about him when I found no-one at school knew who their house was named after, founded the NSPCC), Shaftesbury, Wilberforce, Tom Paine, Charles Fox....anyone else stroppy I've missed.

Maybe ken might go along with Sussex Bonfire societies. Certainly the people they commemorate.

And the writer in the Guardian today, who has given academic support to something I had been cogitating on. Not a good British value Which reminds me to include above my ex-brother-in-law who seized the cane from his head teacher and threatened him with it.

I don't think Gove would approve. Doing what Gove would not approve, I think is a good marker of good British values.

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Sipech
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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.

Well, one half of the national dish. You missed off the fish. Of course, the chips must be drenched in malt vinegar...
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Self-deprecation

I've tried that, but I'm not very good at it. Does that make me less British?

--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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The boiled water leaf soaked liquid called tea. My Portsmouth-born, Barr Colonist, dearly departed grandmother in law inculcated me into this dreadful habit. Which a cup of, cures everything.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Chocoholic
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Milk in last, and how to queue.
One thing I have noticed we do really well is letting other people off the train before those waiting board. I've been amazed when I've traveled how it just doesn't happen in other places.

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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The understatement and associated rhetorical devices such as litotes are not uncommon features of everyday discourse.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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quetzalcoatl
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Bloody-mindedness. Have you got a problem with that?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Oscar the Grouch

Adopted Cascadian
# 1916

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Also - we're as proud of our failures as we are of our successes. Would any other nation turn the debacle that was Dunkirk into a moment of national triumph to be remembered with pride?

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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GCabot
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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.

I thought it was Chicken Tikka Masala now?

--------------------
The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.

I thought it was Chicken Tikka Masala now?
One may eat Chicken Tikka Masala with chips. In South Wales, "curry" is often eaten with "Half-n-half", rice and chips.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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leo
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# 1458

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Saying sorry when it isn't your fault e.g. when someone bumps into you.
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Eigon
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# 4917

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There's a lovely bit in the Captain Britain comics written by Paul Cornell, where the evil Skrull leader is gloating that they have beaten our heroes.
"Within the Skrull Empire you will know grandeur. You will know pride and determination and..."
At which point Captain Britain belts him with Excalibur and says: "I think you'll find we know already. We just don't like to make a fuss."

And real ale - don't forget real ale, as well as tea.

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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.

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Fuff
Apprentice
# 14655

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Wanting the underdog to win.
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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630

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If you were teaching them you wouldn't go far wrong just using the Very British Problems Twitter feed. One of my favourite.

This very topic was a discussion in our staff room at school today. We thought that we would have to teach the art of queuing while binge drinking...

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My allotment blog

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Having major arguments about things like whether the milk goes in first or second (in my case, first if the tea is from a pot, second if from a bag - heresy); or whether the jam or the cream goes on the scone first; or whether the meat in the pasty is minced or in chunks.

[ 10. June 2014, 19:36: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Penny S
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Actually, seriously, I think that a lot of them were well expressed in those famous documents upon which the USA was founded. After all, until they had actually written and signed them, the writers were British. I'm not so sure about all the amendments, though.

[ 10. June 2014, 19:56: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Bob Two-Owls
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Penny, it depends if you drink from fine china or barbarian quaffing pot. China requires milk first to avoid cracking due to thermal shock. If you drink teabag tea out of a mug then you may do as you please.
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Penny S
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# 14768

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Quite. But that people are so insistent on their way being the one and only right way is what makes it weird. Incidentally, my tea mugs are all fine bone china - it tastes better, and they don't seem to crack. (I did have one which did.) I think it tastes better because less heat is lost to the container.
Have you heard the reason which related the order to the need to scald the milk quickly in uncertain climates?

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Chamois
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# 16204

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Taking the p*** out of people in authority.

(The government isn't going to want anyone to teach that, but it's so British nobody actually needs to be taught)

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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases

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GCabot
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.

I thought it was Chicken Tikka Masala now?
One may eat Chicken Tikka Masala with chips. In South Wales, "curry" is often eaten with "Half-n-half", rice and chips.
Okay, that is definitely one of those questionable "disgusting food combinations."

--------------------
The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."

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Jane R
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Penny S:
quote:
anyone else stroppy I've missed.
I dunno whether you'd call most of them stroppy, but how about Mary Wollstonecraft, Elizabeth Fry, Josephine Butler and Florence Nightingale? Just off the top of my head. Oh yes, and Jenny Geddes, who must have been the all-time stool-hurling champion. I once stood on the plaque in St Giles' Cathedral and calculated the trajectory of the stool; I couldn't have hit the bishop at that distance...

British values have changed over time. I think Oscar and NEQ between them have identified the core ones. At least I hope so (somebody tell me UKIP is a temporary aberration. Please!)

Yes, at times like this we really miss Ken. [Frown]

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Penny S
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# 14768

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I'd better add Elizabeth Barton - but I was going for rebellious, and I don't think most of those women were that, wonderful though they were.
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Jane R
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Jenny Geddes certainly was! [Smile]

[ 10. June 2014, 20:50: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Having major arguments about things like whether the milk goes in first or second

In other words, a British Value is arguing about just what is a British Value....

Person 1"It is this and has always been thus"
Person 2 "Sorry, but that is not the manner in which I am accustomed"
Person 1 "Apologies, my Lord Wellington, far be it for me to imply you are not British, but...."

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Penny S
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# 14768

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Jenny Geddes certainly was! [Smile]

I did say most!
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Kagools at the sea side.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Bob Two-Owls
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# 9680

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Maybe British values are only defined by being "things upon which we have no firm convictions"?

[ 10. June 2014, 22:06: Message edited by: Bob Two-Owls ]

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Jane R
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# 331

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Being indecisive is a British value.

Or is it?

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ecumaniac

Ship's whipping girl
# 376

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Piracy, slavery and drugs.

Oh sorry, I meant enterprise, empire and tea.

I've recently done the Life in the UK Test that they make all potential immigrant settlers do, and then immediately afterwards read Nial Fergerson's Empire (it was next on my pile of books) and the difference in how historical events were depicted in those two sources is quite illuminating.

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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine

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Stephen
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But I hardly ever drink tea. I'm a coffeeholic......Perhaps it's because I'm Welsh....... [Big Grin]

I'm not a beer drinker either. A Proper Drink has either got to be hot or with ice. Accept nothing else! [Two face]

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Best Wishes
Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

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Jane R
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lilbuddha:
quote:
Person 1"It is this and has always been thus"
Person 2 "Sorry, but that is not the manner in which I am accustomed"
Person 1 "Apologies, my Lord Wellington, far be it for me to imply you are not British, but...."

Is this the same Lord Wellington who famously said "Publish and be damned"?

I can't imagine HIM saying sorry in those circumstances! It would be "Damn your eyes, sir, twenty years in Her Majesty's Army and you still don't know how to make a cup of tea?!"

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Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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Petrol in litres, distances in miles and driving on the left. The next invasion attempt is doomed.

(But will Scotland change to driving on the right after the referendum?)

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927

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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Also - we're as proud of our failures as we are of our successes. Would any other nation turn the debacle that was Dunkirk into a moment of national triumph to be remembered with pride?

Gallipoli?

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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.

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Oscar the Grouch

Adopted Cascadian
# 1916

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quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Also - we're as proud of our failures as we are of our successes. Would any other nation turn the debacle that was Dunkirk into a moment of national triumph to be remembered with pride?

Gallipoli?
True. But that's only because Australians are mostly wannabe Brits.
[Razz]

And thank heavens for the Grauniad! They have unearthed this wonderful quote from 2007:

quote:
"There is something rather unBritish about seeking to define Britishness. It's a quality which is best demonstrated through action rather than described in the abstract."
Who said that?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Michael Gove - who else?

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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Making an absolute art out of boring things.

Talking about the weather? Check. Trainspotting? What the everliving @#$% is the point of that? Doublecheck. An obsession with used bookstores? Okay, fine, I like the occasional bookshop too, got me there. Eating potatoes at every meal? Also check. Arguing about (frankly) inconsequential details of tea preparation (milk goes in last, by the way—put it in first, you add too much, put it in second, the "bloom" lets you know when to stop)? Think that one's been pointed out.

There's a certain British (or at least English) ideal of the bucolic cottage with its garden, with nothing really happening, seeing the same people at the same time, having the exact same arguments over the same things, that seems to be elevated to a level of Art. What the Japanese did for drinking tea, the British have done for the most seemingly dull and boring things ever—and yet, if you study the Art, there is, despite all appearances, an actual point to the whole exercise. It takes a while to grasp this, that the pursuit of the ordinary takes both talent and determination, but it seems shockingly obvious in retrospect.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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David
Complete Bastard
# 3

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Losing at sport.
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470

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I am a New Zealander but was brought up with British manners.
This childhood-long process of learning by correction, corporal punishment and repetition allowed me to cope with the situation I will now describe...

A young man (30-ish) casually exited my 85 year old mother-in-law's bedroom (where she was "resting" in bed drinking a cup of tea).
I said "Good evening. We just picked some avocado. I have left several for you on the table. Bye for now".

While I live Somewhere Else now with different "values" I would not have survived this scene without my training in politeness and it's requirement to reduce every situation to its most basic and uncontroversial elements.

Politeness can be a refuge.

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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Warm beer .... old ladies cycling to evensong on a summer's evening .... football with pullovers as goal posts ....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Obviously, an important British value is chips, the national dish.

I thought it was Chicken Tikka Masala now?
One may eat Chicken Tikka Masala with chips. In South Wales, "curry" is often eaten with "Half-n-half", rice and chips.
Okay, that is definitely one of those questionable "disgusting food combinations."
You do know that by "chips" we mean what you colonials wrongly refer to as "fries", don't you?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Warm beer

No. This cannot be passed over. Traditional British Ales are not (or should not be) served warm. They are served at cellar temperature, which would be around 12-14C. Well below room temperature, just not too cold to actually taste them. As a general rule, beers that are served ice cold are so served because you wouldn't want to taste them. (Bud, I'm looking at you!)

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bob Two-Owls
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# 9680

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quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Petrol in litres, distances in miles...

I think it very British to measure in metric and then convert to imperial mentally. Almost everyone I know puts litres in their car but bitches about the price per gallon. They always ask me how far a 10km hike is in miles. I always work out grams into pounds and ounces or if in the sweet shop, a hundred grams is always referred to as a quarter of jelly babies.

I thought this might pass with the next generations but my scouts still carry on the tradition of bimetricality and most of them were born in the C21st.

Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
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# 331

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Karl, you do realise that you just proved Ariston's point about elevating obsessive attention to boring things to an art form, don't you? [Two face]

(Being female, I am not required to like beer).

[ 11. June 2014, 08:18: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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