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Source: (consider it) Thread: David Cameron, evangelical
GCabot
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Does anyone really wish that food banks had to exist in the first place? Same with, say, Job Seekers' Allowance.

These questions imply that there is some sort of magical world where food banks or Job Seekers' Allowance would be unnecessary. We can dream of such a world, but that seems rather unproductive.

Jesus said himself that "the poor always ye have with you."

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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."

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SvitlanaV2
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IMO the article is firstly about the importance of religiously inspired 'good works', and secondly about the cultural value of the CofE. It's not about evangelicalism as a theological approach, nor about the importance of a personal faith. Even the reference to evangelism is more about developing social projects rather than belief.

It would be interesting to know which 'religious leaders' were in attendance, and also who the intended wider audience is. The speech doesn't really deal with the issues that potential UKIP voters might have, so it's hard to see how Mr Cameron is targeting them.

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Oscar the Grouch

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I think that there are striking similarities between David Cameron and Justin Welby. Let's start with the bleeding obvious - they are both old Etonians and reflect that (relatively narrow) group of upper-middle class men who come from rather priviledged backgrounds and who have a rather inbuilt assumption that they are somehow "meant" to be in positions of leadership. It is a benign, old school paternalism. Cameron is not the heir to Thatcher, but rather heir to the likes of Eden and MacMillan.

Secondly, both of them came to "power" without much experience. Cameron was made leader of the Conservatives not on the basis of anything he had done, but on the basis of what he said he would do. He became Prime Minister pretty much on the same basis - he was good at making statements which were appealing. Welby was the same. He didn't have any experience to "justify" his appointment - it was all based upon his "potential" and the things he had said.

And they both exhibit a similar pattern of behaviour. They are prone to making "warm" sounding statements, designed to get people agreeing with them, which actually - when analysed - don't really add up to much. There is also a distinct disconnection between what they say and what actually end up doing. Cameron made a big thing about this will be the "greenest" government in history, but actually has done nothing of note in environmental terms. Welby has made warm sounding statements about tackling homophobia in the Anglican Church but has actually done very little about it.

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Garasu
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quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Does anyone really wish that food banks had to exist in the first place? Same with, say, Job Seekers' Allowance.

These questions imply that there is some sort of magical world where food banks or Job Seekers' Allowance would be unnecessary. We can dream of such a world, but that seems rather unproductive.

Jesus said himself that "the poor always ye have with you."

I don't see that we have to imagine a world in which some people are less well off before we can imagine a world where food banks and JSA are unnecessary...

If Jesus was really saying "there will always be some people who are completely destitute", then I'm not sure what good news you think he was bringing?

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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

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Penny S
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i seem to recall from a reading of the essential Islamic text "The 1001 Nights" (NB, irony intended) that some believed that it was necessary for there always to be beggars so that the faithful could always have people to give charity to and thus fulfil one of the five pillars*. There seems to be a touch of that about using Jesus' words about the poor to justify not reordering society to reduce their number.
*In trying to recall what the beggars were supposed to do to fulfil that obligation, the idea that existing to enable that giving was the charitable act comes to mind.

[ 17. April 2014, 19:49: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Martin60
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Our use or His?

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Love wins

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GCabot
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quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Does anyone really wish that food banks had to exist in the first place? Same with, say, Job Seekers' Allowance.

These questions imply that there is some sort of magical world where food banks or Job Seekers' Allowance would be unnecessary. We can dream of such a world, but that seems rather unproductive.

Jesus said himself that "the poor always ye have with you."

I don't see that we have to imagine a world in which some people are less well off before we can imagine a world where food banks and JSA are unnecessary...
Such a society has never existed and I don't see how it ever will.

quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
If Jesus was really saying "there will always be some people who are completely destitute", then I'm not sure what good news you think he was bringing?

Err, the good news of eternal salvation? Jesus promised us that through His grace, our souls would spend eternity with Him. I do not recall Him making any promises about saving us from earthly suffering, unless you buy into prosperity theology.

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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
And they both exhibit a similar pattern of behaviour. They are prone to making "warm" sounding statements, designed to get people agreeing with them, which actually - when analysed - don't really add up to much. There is also a distinct disconnection between what they say and what actually end up doing. Cameron made a big thing about this will be the "greenest" government in history, but actually has done nothing of note in environmental terms. Welby has made warm sounding statements about tackling homophobia in the Anglican Church but has actually done very little about it.

Bang on the nail. We're known by God for our delivery not for our planning and our words.

We've bought the pup again on both counts ....

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ExclamationMark
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Does any realise that Cameron's words mirror the sentiment of Blair's "Trust me, I'm a regular kind of guy?"

It's primarily expediency nothing less. Deliver something Davie, really demonstrate that the Tories don't hate the poor and will kick the fascists out of their parties and then we'll believe you. [Example: the Swindon mayor who resigned wasn't kicked out of the Tory party for the comments he made about disabled people - change that approach David and we'll consider (yes, just consider) cutting you some slack. Until then, the gloves are off - and fortunately in this neck of the woods both Tory MP's realise that. The churches can change it!].

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Penny S
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I have a sort of idea for a video cutting the speech with interviews with sick people found able to work by Atos or sanctioned by Job Centres for "errors" that no-one normal would regard as errors, and food bank organisers, and Jesus' speech about the people those whom he welcomes into heaven have helped. A bit more apposite than the "the poor you have always with you" remark. don't know how to do it, though.
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Sandemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The pathetic weasel

Isn't that offensive to weasels?

AG

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Ramarius
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Is it possible for any politician to make a statement about their own personal faith without being accused of trawling for votes?

That's a fair challenge. Trouble with DC is that his political vision seems to resolve around his own personal ambition and little else. He once famously answered the question "Why do want to be Prime Minister?" with "Because I think I'd be rather good at it." One of his close aides remarked that "90% of David's ambition was fulfilled when he walked through the door of No 10." He repeatly comes across as an actor playing a part rather than someone driven with a vision for change. In that respect he reflects a lot of what we see in the political class that cycles around the corridors of power in Westminster.

A more serious response to the need for food banks would be to address some of the structural issues in his Departments which give rise to them in the first place. If he started paying compensation to people who have their benefits stopped incorrectly, or experince unreasonable delays in them being paid in the first place, he would go a long way to reducing demand for alternative provision of subsistence.

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'

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
A more serious response to the need for food banks would be to address some of the structural issues in his Departments which give rise to them in the first place. If he started paying compensation to people who have their benefits stopped incorrectly, or experince unreasonable delays in them being paid in the first place, he would go a long way to reducing demand for alternative provision of subsistence.

That would be brilliant! Is it Mudfrog of this parish who has recounted many sad stories of people being thrown onto the mercies of churches, foodbanks etc. thanks not to the rules around benefits as such, but to the incompetence and intransigence of local officials? If there was actually some serious comeback for such officials who get it wrong, maybe they would get it wrong less often...

Caveat - I realise many / most / all public bodies are seriously overworked and overstaffed but, still, some of the stories Mudfrog (if it was he) shared sounded horrendous.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
He once famously answered the question "Why do want to be Prime Minister?" with "Because I think I'd be rather good at it."



Perhaps it's me, but that seems as good a reason as any to me. Slightly Macmillan-esque (though I think Macmillan is Cameron's role model).

quote:
A more serious response to the need for food banks would be to address some of the structural issues in his Departments which give rise to them in the first place. If he started paying compensation to people who have their benefits stopped incorrectly, or experince unreasonable delays in them being paid in the first place, he would go a long way to reducing demand for alternative provision of subsistence.
I appreciate that you may not have meant it in this way, Ramarius, but what I don't understand is the way in which people are outraged about folk going to food banks in the way that they aren't outraged about people claiming benefits. 'They should've been paid their benefits' is kind of said with a shrug of the shoulders whereas 'they've gone to a food bank' is said with moral outrage.

The only difference I can see between the two is that one is reliance on charity and one is reliance on the state. Cynical Anglican't can't help but think that's part of the reason for the hatred towards food banks.

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Avila
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This is the same man who when presented with petition and church reps this week at constituency office re End Hunger Fast didn't just refuse to open the door but called the police. On a riotous bunch? Well a bishop and some mates, maybe that does count as a threat! Interesting given this pronouncement of his....


(edited: to change Eat Hunger to End hunger....!)

[ 18. April 2014, 10:57: Message edited by: Avila ]

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
This is the same man who when presented with petition and church reps this week at constituency office re End Hunger Fast didn't just refuse to open the door but called the police. On a riotous bunch? Well a bishop and some mates, maybe that does count as a threat! Interesting given this pronouncement of his....


(edited: to change Eat Hunger to End hunger....!)

I can find reference to a letter being delivered but no reference to the police being called. (Of course, I think it's also very unlikely that David Cameron would have been in his constituency office at the time the letter was delivered.)
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Avila
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From facebook of a contact who was there as one and linked to the story noting the police bit was not mentioned.

Checked and he did refer to DC's office not DC - but still...

And letter not petition, so apologies for errors there

[ 18. April 2014, 11:46: Message edited by: Avila ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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Is this cartoon in today's "Times" germane to our discussion?
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I appreciate that you may not have meant it in this way, Ramarius, but what I don't understand is the way in which people are outraged about folk going to food banks in the way that they aren't outraged about people claiming benefits. 'They should've been paid their benefits' is kind of said with a shrug of the shoulders whereas 'they've gone to a food bank' is said with moral outrage.

You mean 'They've claimed benefits' ? (There is cause for "They should have been paid their benefits" being said with outrage). That might be cause for outrage if there was any evidence that fraud was as widespread across the system as The Wail frequently claims it is.

In any case the focal point of the outrage is completely different.

quote:

The only difference I can see between the two is that one is reliance on charity and one is reliance on the state. Cynical Anglican't can't help but think that's part of the reason for the hatred towards food banks.

No, frankly I can only think you are deliberately misunderstanding things. The reason for the outrage is that most people would like to think that we live in a society where the safety net is such that people aren't wanting for basics like food and shelter. Usually the reason people are referred to food banks in the first place is because the benefits system has broken down, and they don't have any resources to tide themselves over to the point where their next payment comes in. The outrage is there because the system has been set up such that such circumstances will inevitably occur.
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Jay-Emm
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Yes the outrage at "They've had to go to a food bank"
is because it's the end line of "They should have been paid their benefits and they haven't, and you(generic) think that it doesn't matter and even now haven't even noticed that They've Had To Go To A Food Bank".

(at least in this faction of the non-right)
What foodbanks are doing has (many's here) support.
Is it the best way. No... it's an expression of our failure. Are the people good guys (probably, except as far as they contribute to being necessary).

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Garasu
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quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
Jesus promised us that through His grace, our souls would spend eternity with Him. I do not recall Him making any promises about saving us from earthly suffering, unless you buy into prosperity theology.

"It's not God's plan for you to be miserable" is hardly the prosperity gospel!

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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

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stonespring
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It sends shudders down my spine whenever anyone anywhere (except the Vatican) says "this is a Christian country." England has an Established Church - but with so many people who do not identify as Christians living there - you would think that politicians would want to talk about the country as not belonging to any religion (or irreligion) more than any other.

Here in the US, some politicians will say that this is a Christian country, but anyone who has a real chance of being elected president (not of winning the Republican primary, of actually winning the general election) knows that about as far as you can go is saying that this country was founded upon Christian values (which I would say is an oversimplification, but is different that saying that this is a Christian country). After being elected President a person would be even more constrained from saying such a thing. Does anyone have any evidence of a US President since World War II saying that this is a Christian country? What about before (that might be more likely, but I'm not sure)?

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SvitlanaV2
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'This is a Christian country' is a phrase most English people have probably heard before, but it's not really taken to mean that most people in the land are devout believers. I think it's more a reference to the country's cultural heritage. After all, even Richard Dawkins has been known to call himself a 'cultural Christian'. Discomfort arises if the listener suspects the term is being used to insist on special privileges for practising Christians or for churches, which in the mouth of a politician might be the case.

However, it's a fact that despite declining religious practice and belief, there's been very little clamour for the disestablishment of the CofE (although the other countries of Britain have no official church). Every now and then some political leader makes a noise about the bishops in the House of Lords and the powers they anachronistically have there; but then nothing happens. So institutionally speaking Mr Cameron isn't wrong to refer to England as a 'Christian country'. But it's an ambiguous statement from a religious (and hence a political) point of view.

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Enoch
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Polly Toynbee is annoyed in the Guardian about David Cameron. Anything that annoys her must be good news for Christians everywhere.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Polly Toynbee is annoyed in the Guardian about David Cameron. Anything that annoys her must be good news for Christians everywhere.

Apart from the Christians who agree with her, presumably.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Polly Toynbee is annoyed in the Guardian about David Cameron. Anything that annoys her must be good news for Christians everywhere.

Some of us don't allow ourselves to be defined by Polly Tonybee, either positively or negatively.

Having said that:

"But his "Christian country" message is really whistling to the errant flock fled to Ukip. They may never attend, but the C of E is a cultural identity marker for those sharing Nigel Farage's distaste for foreign tongues on his commuter train."

doesn't seem entirely inaccurate. The vast majority of the column is just confused guff though.

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L'organist
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I'd certainly hope not to be defined by Toynbee who - like so many broadly 'socialist' thinkers and journalists - had benefited hugely from the nepotism, family links and connectedness that she decries in people broadly of the right.

I'm not entirely sure why she's so rabidly anti-CofE but anyone of any persuasion expressing a pro-CofE point of view could expected to get a kicking from her.

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quetzalcoatl
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At least, he's not a Jewish atheist, like that fella Miliband, with his treacherous father.

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Grokesx
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quote:
I'm not entirely sure why she's so rabidly anti-CofE but anyone of any persuasion expressing a pro-CofE point of view could expected to get a kicking from her.
I think you'll find she's an equal opportunities kicker. In 2004, according to the fount of all knowledge, the Islamic Human Rights Commission awarded Toynbee the 'Most Islamophobic Media Personality award, and she has written:
quote:
The pens sharpen – Islamophobia! No such thing. Primitive Middle Eastern religions (and most others) are much the same – Islam, Christianity and Judaism all define themselves through disgust for women's bodies


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HughWillRidmee
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From the Church Times article

" Crucially, the Christian values of responsibility, hard work, charity, compassion, humility, and love are shared by people of every faith and none - and we should be confident in standing up to defend them."

In other words - the human values which are shared by some Christians but are no more Christian than they are Islamic, Buddhist, atheistic/agnostic, Wiccan etc. - but since this is aimed at voters who identify as Christian we'll assume that they only read the carefully crafted bit that makes them feel special and don't realise that I'm carefully hedging my bets so that the non-Christian majority don't get too upset.

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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

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Hairy Biker
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Predictable reaction from the humanists.

I think it's a shame the ABC and other Christian leaders haven't taken the opportunity to challenge on him on what specifically he and his party have done that Jesus would have approved of. As it is, we're left with a ruling elite co-opting our religion as an old-boys club in order to win a few xenophobic votes. That's hugely damaging for Christianity and should be challenged in the strongest possible language.

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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst

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Wesley J

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Good points indeed, HB!

And nobody asks people not associated with Cammie et al or humanists et al, and who now find themselves between a rock and a hard place. Bloody embarrassing.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
At least, he's not a Jewish atheist, like that fella Miliband, with his treacherous father.

That would be treacherous as in, "fought bravely for his country in the Second World War", I guess?

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Amos

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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
At least, he's not a Jewish atheist, like that fella Miliband, with his treacherous father.

That would be treacherous as in, "fought bravely for his country in the Second World War", I guess?
Yes. Check your sarcasm alert.

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
Jesus said himself that "the poor always ye have with you."

I believe that was an observation, not a recommendation.

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
At least, he's not a Jewish atheist, like that fella Miliband, with his treacherous father.

That would be treacherous as in, "fought bravely for his country in the Second World War", I guess?
Yes. Check your sarcasm alert.
Just makin' sure ;-)

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Solly
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The good Christian people responding in this thread confirm a generally-held view that one's right to call oneself and express oneself as a Christian comes not with baptism but with the approval of the self-appointed righteous. You would think that a politician publicly expressing his Christian faith.....Oh never mind - waste of time.
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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
At least, he's not a Jewish atheist, like that fella Miliband, with his treacherous father.

That would be treacherous as in, "fought bravely for his country in the Second World War", I guess?
Yes. Check your sarcasm alert.
Just makin' sure ;-)
Yes, my fault. I thought that 'fella' would be the clue for Brits, that I was being vurra zargastickal. But for non-Brits, and non-Daily Wail readers, not so.

There are stories circulating actually, that the 'I'm a Christian' stuff is a dog whistle, for 'and Miliband is a Jew' - do you really want a Jew PM? Not that Cameron would say that, but I know somebody who would.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
The good Christian people responding in this thread confirm a generally-held view that one's right to call oneself and express oneself as a Christian comes not with baptism but with the approval of the self-appointed righteous. You would think that a politician publicly expressing his Christian faith.....Oh never mind - waste of time.

By their fruits you shall know them, surely? Many people who say 'Lord, Lord' never knew Him...

This isn't specifically saying that Cameron is not a Christian by the way, just saying that people who are not Christians but who call themselves Christians do exist.

Talking about Cameron more specifically, using Christianity to recapture traditional Conservative voters who want to decamp to UKIP is something practising Christians can quite reasonably object to.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I believe that was an observation, not a recommendation.

Also quoted out of context.

The question posed is why waste perfume on Jesus' head rather than giving the money to the poor.
Jesus: the poor you have always with you so you can give to them any time you like but you will not always have me.
(Italics as in the King James Version.)

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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L'organist
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DC has been a sporadic churchgoer all his life it is just not something that he has been asked about before.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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shamwari
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Being a sporadic church-goer all your life does not account for the fact that suddenly you launch into enthusiastic "God talk" unless some kind of conversion experience sparks it.

Cameron has not suggested that this might have happened.

Far more likely it is an attempt to appeal to the 'religious right' hitherto an almost non-existent force in British politics but with the rise of UKIP it might just be a latent force with which to counter his conservative constituency who deride his other 'anti-Christian' actions.

Cynicism is the only appropriate response.

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Ricardus
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The problem I think is that everything politicians say is instantly fed into the media machine*, and you can't get to Cameron's position without filtering everything through the test of "Will this make me look like an arsehole?" Hence even when he's being sincere, he will be consciously trying to create a particular impression.

If he just said what he liked, every day would be "Gaffe-prone Cameron puts his foot in it again".

* I would say "closely scrutinised by the media" but that implies a degree of intellectual reflection.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
DC has been a sporadic churchgoer all his life it is just not something that he has been asked about before.

One thing I remember about DC from before he became PM is that one day he was filmed walking down the street, with some of his staff in tow. There was a rather scruffy young journalist in attendance (I don't know if he'd been invited or was just trying his luck) who suddenly asked, 'Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Saviour? At that, DC put on a rather sad, silent face, and a female team member got very cross with the interviewer for asking what was obviously taken as an awkward question.

This incident always stuck in my mind, because both the question and the responses seemed noteworthy.

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Penny S
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News - BBC, interview with a representative of the Conservative Christian Association (I hope I got that right) who claimed that being Christian was a very British thing and that what the humanists had done in sending their letter was not British. Having gone a bit ballistic about being critical of government pronouncements, including about religion, was very British indeed, and the MP had obviously done the wrong sort of British history. Then I noticed, after reading this thread again, that the humanist spokesman was Jim al-Khalili. More dog whistling?
ITV, interview with a spokesman for Christian Concern, which seems, from its site, to be mostly concerned about sexual issues. I couldn't see anything about the poor and the prisoners and the orphans there, and now I'm going to have to purge my cookies. He was against DC's claims because Christians have a large number of issues on which they disagree with him. SSM, I suspect is top of the list.
Can't they find people who won't let the side down?

[ 21. April 2014, 18:12: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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StevHep
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For what its worth I have written a blog on the subject. My conclusion is-

David Cameron remains a politician. The debate he has stirred up really does nothing to help the Christian faith or to impress upon the minds of those who hear him the Good News about Jesus Christ. But it probably does help the Conservative Party bring on board Evangelicals and those for whom the words 'Christian values' is a shorthand way of saying 'everything was better in the 1950's'. And that is all he cares about.

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http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
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SvitlanaV2
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Will it really help the Conservative Party 'bring on board Evangelicals'? As far as I can tell, DC didn't actually say anything that was particularly evangelical. He threw in some key terms and a catchphrase about how we live in a 'Christian country', but the 'Christian values' he referred to directly were about doing charitable works. You don't have to be an evangelical (or even a Christian) to pay lip service to that....

I'm still hoping someone will tell us which 'church leaders' attended his Easter meeting. That would be very interesting information.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Will it really help the Conservative Party 'bring on board Evangelicals'? As far as I can tell, DC didn't actually say anything that was particularly evangelical.

It's not meant to bring on board 'Evangelicals' (though may have an un-intended impact amongst the small number of evangelicals of the phillips stroud variety who look over the Atlantic for inspiration). It's supposed to appeal to the rural Tory voter who thinks God is an Englishman who looked like WG Grace, and who would otherwise go Kipper.
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StevHep
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Evangelicals who might be inclined to sit on their hands rather than vote for any of the main parties may well re-evaluate that in the light of these comments and other similar ones that will no doubt be made. Especially when the main opposition party is led by an atheist. The bigger impact though, I suspect, is among those for whom Christianity means the world before the 1960's and all that flowed from it.

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StevHep
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I remember back in the 70's when I was growing up in my native land prominent figures sometimes said "Scotland is a Protestant country." In the sense that the culture and values of all Scots had in some way been shaped by the dominant ethos of Calvinism it was an intellectually defensible statement.

What it actually meant though, in many instances, was 'don't vote Labour' since the Labour Party and the large Irish-origin population in the West of the country were inextricably intertwined. And the Irish were notoriously not Protestant.

ISTM that David Cameron could be trying to pull a similar trick here.

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My Blog Catholic Scot
http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
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