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Source: (consider it) Thread: Circumcision
cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Neither appropriate nor inappropriate.

quote:
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Yes, this seems to be more consistent with what Paul actually says, and is the only thing that makes sense of both Galatians and the fact that Paul had Timothy circumcised.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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HughWillRidmee
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:


I can imagine one disadvantage but I'm not going to talk about it here... [Hot and Hormonal]

Wanker! [Devil] (Sorry, couldn't resist it!)
Knob-jockey!

[Big Grin]

Takes one to know one!

It is alleged that when Kinsey was asked what his published statement (that 96% of men in the USA reported that they masturbated regularly) said about American men his response was "4% of American men are liars."

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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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Globe & Mail article against circumcision

Excellent points, the benefits are marginal and in any case can be had by other methods which are cheaper, non-invasive, or far more clinically effective (HPV Vaccine).

Surgery on a newborn for cosmetic or sexual health reasons which won't become relevant for decades is patently unnecessary.

My brother and wife recently had two girls. Had they been boys, they were informed that the city's hospital doesn't do circumcisions and there are only four specialists in town who do. And they have to pay for it, it isn't covered under public health insurance.

The hospital staff neither suggest or recommend it.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Thanks for the clarification.

I wouldn't go so far as to say circumcision leads to damnation, but I would say that it is not appropriate for Christians to circumcise. It's popularity in certain places is really just a surreptitious form of Judaisation.

And to me this statement just sounds like that old European pathology of anti-semitism.
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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Whoops-- I left out a "not" in my post above. Paul is arguing that we should not require circumcision, or see it as a guaranteed entrance to the Kingdom-- because that would be a false hope. We are to put our trust in Christ.

I'm not sure that we always interpret Paul correctly in Galations. Timothy had a Jewish mother, so circumcision was appropriate for him. Paul beleved that Jews should uphold the Jewish Law. In Acts 21.24, he takes a purification vow. What he's saying in Galations is that there's no need for Gentile converts to Christ to take on the Law, because when Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness (Gen 15.6). It was later (17.23) that he was circumcised. So faith comes before circumcision and a long time before the Law which came through Moses.

In Acts 15, at the Council of Jerusalem, the "circumcision party" ie James and the original apostles, reluctantly agree to the compromise that converts only need to obey the minimal requirements of Godfearers. But in verse 21 they say, " For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
So the hope is there that, eventually, all these converts will take on the Law. That the history of Christianity moved in a totally different direction afterwards is by the way.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Thanks for the clarification.

I wouldn't go so far as to say circumcision leads to damnation, but I would say that it is not appropriate for Christians to circumcise. It's popularity in certain places is really just a surreptitious form of Judaisation.

Prompted by whom? Seriously, who has anything to gain in the last couple of centuries from "Judaisation" and would actually have the power to push for it? Answers alleging a global Jewish conspiracy will be roundly mocked.
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Ad Orientem
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Well, don't you find it rather strange?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Not really. For what it's worth, I'm not a great fan of the State of Israel and some reactions to replacement theology, but I think that current trends in the church wrt Judaism are entirely to be expected given the massive kick up the arse the Western church got regarding its historical attitude to Judaism in WWII. No conspiracy theories about Jewish Plots or crap of that nature required.

[ 23. April 2014, 08:17: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Thanks for the clarification.

I wouldn't go so far as to say circumcision leads to damnation, but I would say that it is not appropriate for Christians to circumcise. It's popularity in certain places is really just a surreptitious form of Judaisation.

Let's for the moment ignore the nastiness inherent in the last sentence.

I can't speak for the US and some other places, but totally wrong as an explanation for the high rates of circumcision in Australia from the 1920s onwards. Even today, the Jewish ovulation here is under 100,000, but by 1939 was probably below 20,000. Most of these would have been in Sydney and Melbourne. There were some Jewish people in very prominent positions in Aust society - Isaac Isaacs and John Monash spring instantly to mind - but to suggest that the large percentage being circumcised arose from Judaisation is just plain wrong.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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The fact of the matter is that we have no idea why circumcision ever got started. It appears to have been common in SE Mediterranean tribes, especially of "semitic" origin. The earliest evidence looks if anything more like a rite of passage into adulthood, but it's hardly overwhelming evidence.

It's certainly true that these tribes were patriarchal societies, but then at that time so was everyone else, and if that were a significant motivation in its development (let alone the main or only one) you would expect to find it cropping up all over the place. So I'm distinctly wary of that as an explanation. But conversely, the geographical correlation is surely something that cannot be overlooked.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Gee D
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Circumcision was common amongst the ancient peoples of this land, usually carried out at the iniation ceremonies into manhood. Why? Because that is what they did and had always done.

[ 23. April 2014, 09:44: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Circumcision was common amongst the ancient peoples of this land, usually carried out at the iniation ceremonies into manhood. Why? Because that is what they did and had always done.

Surely the evidence from the USA is as good as anything else I can think of for this thesis, Gee D. Presumably the first time it got done, somebody had a reason, but these things get lost in the mists of time.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Gee D
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Well and truly lost in the mists of time, especially the very dense mists 60,000 odd years ago. That is what I meant by had always done.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Thanks for the clarification.

I wouldn't go so far as to say circumcision leads to damnation, but I would say that it is not appropriate for Christians to circumcise. It's popularity in certain places is really just a surreptitious form of Judaisation.

Let's for the moment ignore the nastiness inherent in the last sentence.

I can't speak for the US and some other places, but totally wrong as an explanation for the high rates of circumcision in Australia from the 1920s onwards. Even today, the Jewish ovulation here is under 100,000, but by 1939 was probably below 20,000. Most of these would have been in Sydney and Melbourne. There were some Jewish people in very prominent positions in Aust society - Isaac Isaacs and John Monash spring instantly to mind - but to suggest that the large percentage being circumcised arose from Judaisation is just plain wrong.

From an American perspective, I'd also say it's wrong. The rise of circumcision came at a time when the US was as anti-semitic as ever. Rather, as noted by others previously, it seems to be associated with the medicalization of childbirth and infant raising that came along with rising prosperity in the 20th c. Nothing whatsoever to do with the "Jewishness" of the procedure.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Well and truly lost in the mists of time, especially the very dense mists 60,000 odd years ago. That is what I meant by had always done.

Ah, but that is the very insidious nature of The Jewish Plot, introduce circumcision into Australia before anyone had heard of Jews, before Judaism existed.* Throw everyone off the trail, it does. Very Clever.....


*Possibly 54,000 years before the Universe existed! OMG! Those crafty bastards!

[ 23. April 2014, 13:32: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Nicolemr
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As I understand it, the fad for circumcision in the US got a real big boost from it being touted as a masturbation preventative.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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That's my understanding too.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
As I understand it, the fad for circumcision in the US got a real big boost from it being touted as a masturbation preventative.

Alright, let us presume this is correct. If Kinsey's survey is at all accurate, or even close, these men advocating circumcision would be circumcised with, ahem, first-hand knowledge of the inaccuracy of the claim.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Is there anything you don't know about Jade?

Well I know how not to make rude comments. That makes one of us at least.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Nicolemr
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This was before Kinsey.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
This was before Kinsey.

So I Googled and besides learning more of what Google will not autofill, I learned more about how fucked up people are when it comes to sex.

Still my point stands. People masturbate. Circumcised men who had their sons circumcised masturbated. They knew it did not work as a preventative.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Timothy the Obscure

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
As I understand it, the fad for circumcision in the US got a real big boost from it being touted as a masturbation preventative.

That was indeed a major reason why it caught on in a big way a century or so ago.

I can testify that it doesn't work.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Still my point stands. People masturbate. Circumcised men who had their sons circumcised masturbated. They knew it did not work as a preventative.

I think we need to separate why it was first touted in goy society in the 19th century, and why it perpetuated after that. It is true that certain people claimed it would prevent "onanism," and it is also true that it doesn't, and that people know that and still have their kids circumcised. There is no contradiction here.

I think nowadays many people (goyim) who have their boys chopped do it because they want them to "look like dad." A generation ago it was simply "well, that's what everybody does." I doubt anybody in the last 100 years has thought it curbs wankification.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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WearyPilgrim
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Circumcision was common amongst the ancient peoples of this land, usually carried out at the iniation ceremonies into manhood. Why? Because that is what they did and had always done.

Surely the evidence from the USA is as good as anything else I can think of for this thesis, Gee D. Presumably the first time it got done, somebody had a reason, but these things get lost in the mists of time.
While I fully respect the Jewish tradition of circumcision (and I would add, for what it's worth, that though I'm a Gentile I'm one of the "cut"), it has long struck me that circumcision is an extraordinarily odd way of "marking" one as part of a particular group. Whether God mandated it for Israel or whether --- if one chooses to take a higher critical approach to the Hebrew Bible --- it was a custom whose origins are lost in antiquity and the Hebrews chose it as the means by which to identify their male children as Israelites --- either way, it seems bizarre. Why this and not tattooing, which was prohibited? A tattoo would have a similarly permanent effect, and would have been --- face it --- much less strange. Two hundred foreskins to buy a wife (1 Samuel 18:27)? Ya gotta admit, that's definitely "out there."
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Mudfrog
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Because tattoing was associated with ancestor worship, whereas circumcision was a sign of covenant submission to deity.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Matt Black

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Yeah, but why? I mean, no sane man (IMNSVHO) is going to look at his willy and say to himself, "I know, wouldn't it be great if I got a knife or sharp stone and cut a bit of it off to show I love my god."

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Mudfrog
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Token sacrifice?

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Matt Black

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Not exactly 'token', is it?

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Gwai
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Is there anything you don't know about Jade?

Well I know how not to make rude comments. That makes one of us at least.
Jade this is the second time in ten minutes that I have found a recent personal attack of yours in Purgatory. If you know not to make them, then stop!

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Karl Kroenen
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.....and she said:

"MMmmm, I didn't know they made cheese and onion flavour condoms"

....and I said:

"I'm not wearing a condom" [Projectile]

Yes, I suppose circumcision does cut down on the build up of the old knob-cheese, but I'd be really interested to know how one...ahem, 'knocks one out' with any great efficiency if one is cut?

[Killing me] [Axe murder]

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yeah, but why? I mean, no sane man (IMNSVHO) is going to look at his willy and say to himself, "I know, wouldn't it be great if I got a knife or sharp stone and cut a bit of it off to show I love my god."

It is a way to separate the car buyers from the tire kickers and every guy has one to lose.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Not exactly 'token', is it?

I suppose it depends on how much you cut off (or how much you have that will be left
[Big Grin] )

Maybe it's a little bit in lieu of death: a whole-body sacrifice.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Bernard Mahler
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When it comes to the point, it's surely a matter of taste.

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"What does it matter? All is grace" Georges Bernanos

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
I'd be really interested to know how one...ahem, 'knocks one out' with any great efficiency if one is cut?

[Killing me] [Axe murder]

Obviously the Yanks are just as much a load of tossers as the rest of us, so they can evidently do it. I think they use some kind of lubrication - WD40 maybe, or 3 in 1.


[Big Grin]

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Doublethink.
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If you google you find a lot of folk asking and answering this question. The answer appears to be, much the same way - perhaps more vigourously, perhaps with lube.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Mudfrog
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Googling this subject might lead some of us into ways we really shouldn't explore too often [Biased]

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Karl Kroenen
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I don't really want to Google it for fear of what I might find: I already find far too many pictures of single barrelled pump action yoghurt rifles as it is. However I would imagine that if one was circumcised, the easiest way to coax forth the custard to start with an 'up stroke' i.e.pulling away from the belly. I would have thought that to commence with a 'down stroke' would be rather painful. Would this be correct?

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Gwalchmai
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# 17802

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50 years or more ago, when I was supposed to learn about such matters, sex education was very sketchy, to say the least and it was not until years later that I found out what circumcision is. In a clergy household, circumcision was something religious that the Bible goes on about at some length. I would never have imagined it had anything to do with the penis.

However, in retrospect I do wish I had asked at confirmation class what circumcision was!

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Dubious Thomas
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# 10144

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Obviously the Yanks are just as much a load of tossers as the rest of us, so they can evidently do it. I think they use some kind of lubrication - WD40 maybe, or 3 in 1.


[Big Grin]

It's been a personal "revelation" to me to find a Salvation Army officer posting jocular comments about masturbation! [Eek!] Maybe the Sally Anne in the land of its birth is different than it is over here, where I've had the distinct impression that "onanism" is one of those things that is incompatible with Holiness, and not to be joked about! There is a large SA corps center in my neighborhood and the corps officers frequent my local coffee shop -- I'll need to ask one of them about this! [Big Grin]

But, seriously, does nearly every thread here need to end up as a Yanks-versus-Brits discussion?

Mudfrog, if you would like to know how a circumcised man can manage self-pleasure, you don't have to cross the Pond -- you could just ask the Prince of Wales! He was "done" by a moyel. [Further evidence in support of Ad Orientem's suspicion of a massive Jewish Conspiracy to rob gentiles of their foreskins! ... Hava Nagila! Hava Nagila!]

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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6

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St Deird
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# 7631

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Two, a desensitisation would be an advantage to female partners. Might make that elusive penetrative orgasm a little less elusive.

...except that in some circumstances desensitising the penis can make it much trickier for men to get an erection. NOT really a benefit there.

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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Two, a desensitisation would be an advantage to female partners. Might make that elusive penetrative orgasm a little less elusive.

...except that in some circumstances desensitising the penis can make it much trickier for men to get an erection. NOT really a benefit there.
But how common is that in reality? America would have no native born children and Judaism only converts.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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St Deird
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# 7631

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Two, a desensitisation would be an advantage to female partners. Might make that elusive penetrative orgasm a little less elusive.

...except that in some circumstances desensitising the penis can make it much trickier for men to get an erection. NOT really a benefit there.
But how common is that in reality? America would have no native born children and Judaism only converts.
Not usual, maybe. But it does happen. (And I didn't say 'impossible', just 'difficult'.)

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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.

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k-mann
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# 8490

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
We regard female circumcision as unacceptable, so why male?

Well, that would be like asking why it isn’t OK to scalp a person when it is OK to given them a hair cut.

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
On the other hand, banning male circumcision would be very offensive to Jews and Muslims.

It wouldn’t just be offensive. It would be to say, at least to a Jew,* that he isn’t welcome in our country as a Jew.

While it might not be intentionally anti-semitic to ban circumcision, it would become that in practice.

* I haven’t studied the laws on circumcision in Islam, so I don’t know if it is mandated the way it is in Judaism.

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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich

Katolikken

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Dubious Thomas
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# 10144

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quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
On the other hand, banning male circumcision would be very offensive to Jews and Muslims.

It wouldn’t just be offensive. It would be to say, at least to a Jew,* that he isn’t welcome in our country as a Jew.

While it might not be intentionally anti-semitic to ban circumcision, it would become that in practice.

Not all hypothetical ... and, in of all places, GERMANY! Fortunately, saner heads prevailed -- though it is worth noting that 100 German law-makers were quite prepared to send German Jews (and Muslims) the message that they're not welcome in Germany (at least if they practice their religion faithfully). [Frown]

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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6

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John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
# 158

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1. In the UK circumcision was in part a class thing -- never (except for medical reasons) among the lower classes, sometimes (see the previous reference to HRH the Prince of Wales and his brothers) among the upper classes and, I suppose, frequently among the upwardly mobile middle classes (or at least, those who aspired to be upwardly mobile).

2. Don't assume that the decisions about circumcisions are being made by the fathers. It was my wife, not I, who insisted on our son being circumcised...with the full consent (in advance) of our obstetrician who informed us that all the boys he delivered were done and that was that. And it is my daughter, not her husband, who has decided that if their child (due in a month) is a boy, he will be done. My wife's decision was about health -- and the fact that both my father and her father had to undergo the operation later in life. I don't know about my daughter's reasoning, but I suspect health comes into it. I haven't checked out her husband so I don't know if "looking like daddy" is a factor.

John

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
1.

2.My wife's decision was about health -- and the fact that both my father and her father had to undergo the operation later in life. I don't know about my daughter's reasoning, but I suspect health comes into it. I haven't checked out her husband so I don't know if "looking like daddy" is a factor.

John

Interestingly, circumcision is no longer recommended as a remedy for phimosis. The preferred intervention in Canada now is a single slit to relieve the restriction and to leave the foreskin otherwise intact.

It's not recommended for any other reason either and certainly not anything that can be cured with pharmaceutical intervention.

As for your obstetrician, no Canadian medical body currently recommends routine infant circumcision and the hospital medical staff where my brothers children were born no longer recommend the practice. The Canadian medical establishment really has changed its tune.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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I recall seeing a text that from James I & VI, all British male princes were circumcized, the justification having something to do with the king being heir to the covenant of Hezekiah). I gather that this continued until the arrival of Princes William and Harry, as Diana objected to the procedure. Perhaps someone can verify this urban possibly-legend???

[ 26. April 2014, 00:11: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]

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Dubious Thomas
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# 10144

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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I recall seeing a text that from James I & VI, all British male princes were circumcized, the justification having something to do with the king being heir to the covenant of Hezekiah). I gather that this continued until the arrival of Princes William and Harry, as Diana objected to the procedure. Perhaps someone can verify this urban possibly-legend???

Here is a detailed scholarly article, "The British Royal Family's Circumcision Tradition," which debunks some elements of the "legend." The authors claim that royal circumcision only goes back to the time of Victoria, and that it was not motivated by Davidic royal identifications.

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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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The torygraph says this - so apparently it would be George the 1st's fault.

However, the sociologists say not.

[ 26. April 2014, 00:19: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Dubious Thomas
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# 10144

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
The torygraph says this - so apparently it would be George the 1st's fault.

However, the sociologists say not.

We "cross-posted".... According to the article I linked, it isn't George I's fault after all....

In fact, the practice may not even go back to Victoria's time, but may have begun with Elizabeth and Philip and their infant, Charles.

Oops! Cross-posted again!

[ 26. April 2014, 00:22: Message edited by: Dubious Thomas ]

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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6

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