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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Christian Obligation to Evangelise
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
Do Christians who believe in Hell have an obligation to assist the non-believers and those Christians they believe to be following the wrong path?
Or can they merrily watch the benighted lie down on the conveyor to the Eternal Crematorium?
[ 07. May 2014, 07:50: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Hairy Biker
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# 12086
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Posted
Only once they have enough humility to understand that they themselves may be on exactly the same conveyor...
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
Yes, we all an obligation to live and speak for Christ so that others will know he loves them and offers salvation. And yes we do it with humility because we are all sinners.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
Following the thread title, I would like to protest against the steady trickle of doorstep "evangelists" who have to be firmly told that coming to their group to discuss Jesus is not my idea of religion. They always seem surprised and even wounded by my very definite views on this. I, on the other hand, become livid with rage at the sight of two people with an open book... ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) To me, this is so intrusive. Apart from which, Christianity is what I do, not what I talk about. But I was not nice to the last lot - they obviously pressed a deep seated button.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Do Christians who believe in Hell have an obligation to assist the non-believers and those Christians they believe to be following the wrong path?
Or can they merrily watch the benighted lie down on the conveyor to the Eternal Crematorium?
You are assuming that all Christians believe that all non-Christians are going to hell. This is not the case.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Do Christians who believe in Hell have an obligation to assist the non-believers and those Christians they believe to be following the wrong path?
Or can they merrily watch the benighted lie down on the conveyor to the Eternal Crematorium?
I suspect that the attempt to evangelise would have the very opposite effect of "assisting" the evangelised even further down the primrose path. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Evangelism is a form of harassment . Jesus didn't harass anyone . People either followed Him or they didn't . Evangelicals who go with the *rescuing folk from a burning house* thing would no doubt disagree with that statement .
Nevertheless TMM there is no person anywhere on Earth who can't silently, and voluntarily give their heart to God if such is their desire , even if it's a nano-second before death.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Of course Christians have an obligation to evangelize. Jesus told his apostles to evangelize. They did. My question is if Jesus preached a pluralist gospel devoid of an requirement of faith or threat of judgment why the disciples sacrificed their lives to spread the message in the first place. After all, we see how little evangelism is done by modern Christians who embrace such a gospel
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
It does rather depend on what you call evangelising. Jesus preached in public, but nowhere does it say in the Gospels that he doorstepped people, or even visited a house uninvited. Also, imo if an individual's life doesn't demonstrate his belief in action, no words will be effective. I agree with Rolyn that evangelising,(whether by buttonholing, collaring or doorstepping,) is harassment.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Of course Christians have an obligation to evangelize. Jesus told his apostles to evangelize. They did. My question is if Jesus preached a pluralist gospel devoid of an requirement of faith or threat of judgment why the disciples sacrificed their lives to spread the message in the first place. After all, we see how little evangelism is done by modern Christians who embrace such a gospel
They delegate.
My brother is a missionary. He has probably helped bring hundreds (perhaps thousands in part with his organizational efforts) to faith in Christ. A portion of his "team" are all the earnest folks who support him financially and pray for his efforts. How much personal witnessing these people do, too, I have no idea.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
My question is if Jesus preached a pluralist gospel devoid of an requirement of faith or threat of judgment why the disciples sacrificed their lives to spread the message in the first place. After all, we see how little evangelism is done by modern Christians who embrace such a gospel
Because they believed they wanted to invite people into the Kingdom today, not next week or next month or after they die. Because they believed the Kingdom of God is a wonderful place to be. Because they felt that a life following Jesus was better than a life lived on one's own. Because they had been blind but now they see.
One doesn't need to believe in eternal punishment to see the value in knowing and following Jesus today, or living in his Kingdom today.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Maybe, but if there are many valid paths to God, then why risk ones life to tell others about yet another way? If the disciples eyes were opened, was there something missing in their former religion? Have subsequent revelations of Godself superseded the Incarnation so that now evangelism is no longer necessary?
Also, Jesus and his apostles preached in public. In other words, they were street preachers. Street preachers are held in as much contempt as those who go door to door. Perhaps, Jesus was crucified for harassing people. Didn't he know you aren't supposed to talk about religion in polite company?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Also, Jesus and his apostles preached in public. In other words, they were street preachers. Street preachers are held in as much contempt as those who go door to door.
By whom? As for doorstepping, I am indignant rather than contemptuous. Can't speak for anyone else. Can you?
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
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Lord Jestocost
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# 12909
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Of course Christians have an obligation to evangelize. Jesus told his apostles to evangelize.
The exact instruction was actually to go and make disciples. Whether that counts as evangelising may depend on your interpretation but it doesn't to me. Many of the crowd around Jesus were disciples before coming to any kind of faith.
Personally I think you stand a much better chance of making disciples if you're not harassing anyone; rather, leading by example of what a great guy Jesus is.
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
Coincidentally I touch on this in my latest blog. The relevant paras are-
quote:
Catholic thought has a tremendously handy concept with the splendidly un-PC name of 'Invincible Ignorance.' In a previous controversy the Church summarised the effect of this state-
"that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God."
If part of the action of listening to the Father includes access with an open mind to the Christian Scriptures and the teachings of His Saints then those who have no such access, either because these things are not available to them or because their minds have been closed off to them from an early age because of upbringing or ingrained personal characteristics, then they can only listen to Him through the media which are available to them. If their response to this listening is to learn all that they can and follow through on that learning then they are implicitly following Jesus. As I was an unconscious Platonist so they are unconscious Christians.
It is necessary to add though that explicit faith in Christ and incorporation into His Body the Church does have an effect in strengthening faith and in expanding greatly the truth we can hear and respond to. To know Him under a veil is less good than to know Him face to face and so the Church has a duty ever to evangelise everyone who is outside her fold. She has no reason not to seek to convert Muslims, Jews or those of other faiths. As the letter already cited put it "they are in a condition "in which they cannot be sure of their salvation" since "they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church"
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My Blog Catholic Scot
http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
@stevhep on Twitter
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Maybe the good thing that the Christian martyrs died for that was worth dying for was not the idea that idea that salvation comes only through faith in the Triune God and Christ as Lord and Savior (to the exclusion of all other faiths). Maybe evangelization to the Gospel of Christ is a necessary thing and something worth risking one's life to do but it is not about persuading others to believe in the formula stated above. Maybe "faith in Christ" is more about a transformed life than it is about any belief or ritual. Those people who do decide to be Christians should be baptized and engage with Scripture, other Christian writings, and Church worship and community, but I don't think that persuading non-Christians to do that is what evangelism is about.
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
Personally I think you stand a much better chance of making disciples if you're not harassing anyone; rather, leading by example of what a great guy Jesus is.
That's my take on it .
Also I go with what cliffdweller said about God's Kingdom being a 'wonderful place'. Knowing that, practicing it, and not hiding one's light under a bushel is as good a way as any to advertise Jesus.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Maybe the good thing that the Christian martyrs died for that was worth dying for was not the idea that idea that salvation comes only through faith in the Triune God and Christ as Lord and Savior (to the exclusion of all other faiths).
Is that what you think the martyrs really thought or what you would like them to have thought? However, I'm sure I can hear the martyrs turning in their graves at the suggestion. Did you hear that?
[ 24. April 2014, 18:10: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
Coincidentally I touch on this in my latest blog.
SteveHep, while we presume (possibly mistakenly) that you own the copyright to your own words posted on your blog, any post in which content from elsewhere (irrespective of the source) massively exceeds new content makes the hosts twitchy and results in them having hard-to-control urges to engage in massive editing.
In future, please post a brief excerpt of one relevant point and a link.
Thanks!
/hosting
[ 24. April 2014, 18:17: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Maybe the good thing that the Christian martyrs died for that was worth dying for was not the idea that idea that salvation comes only through faith in the Triune God and Christ as Lord and Savior (to the exclusion of all other faiths).
Is that what you think the martyrs really thought or what you would like them to have thought? However, I'm sure I can hear the martyrs turning in their graves at the suggestion. Did you hear that?
I don't know what they thought or if it matters. The martyrs are in heaven so they aren't turning in their graves. I'm asking why they are martyrs in the first place - what was it that they died for that had value. Lots of people die for things that may or may not be good but we don't consider them martyrs in the sense of being a Saint in Heaven now. What is it that, if someone dies for it, makes them a martyr?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Door to door evangelism. Are you, in actual fact, talking about Jehovah's Witnesses? Are there normal Christian churches that go door to door?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Bob Two-Owls
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# 9680
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Posted
Yes, had some from a local happy clappy place a couple of weeks ago. They were really quite insulting when I said I wasn't interested in being a Christian any more. I haven't seen a Jehovas Witness for decade or so, but we get people touting for various evangelical churches about once or twice a year.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Of course Christians have an obligation to evangelize. Jesus told his apostles to evangelize.
The exact instruction was actually to go and make disciples. Whether that counts as evangelising may depend on your interpretation but it doesn't to me. Many of the crowd around Jesus were disciples before coming to any kind of faith.
Personally I think you stand a much better chance of making disciples if you're not harassing anyone; rather, leading by example of what a great guy Jesus is.
So...it's your understanding that the apostles went around baptizing unbelievers? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Maybe, but if there are many valid paths to God, then why risk ones life to tell others about yet another way? If the disciples eyes were opened, was there something missing in their former religion? Have subsequent revelations of Godself superseded the Incarnation so that now evangelism is no longer necessary?
I didn't say there are many paths to God. There aren't. Jesus tells us no one comes to the Father but thru him. One doesn't need to believe in the threat of eternal punishment to believe that Jesus is the only way anyone-- Christian, Jew, Buddhist or atheist-- enters the Kingdom
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
That is still not our business. The only salvation which concerns me is my own, and that, given the Eternal's infinite stubbornness, will probably happen, even if, as C.S.Lewis described his own experience, I am dragged reluctantly (kicking and screaming?) into the Christian camp.
More to the point would be if the general observer could still say, "How these Christians love one another" - and then wonder what they have that's so special. Example works better than words.
I have to confess that I didn't stop to find out which sect or denomination my most recent doorsteppers were, as my immediate instinct was do get rid of them pronto!
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We hear it at the end of every catholic service don't we. And NOBODY does it. Nobody. I mean nobody. I got a reputation for being difficult when the nice lady who 'leads' home groups came to tell us how to evangelize. I said show me. Cuh. WHAT a party pooper I was!
I know of no clergy who are any good at it. I mean, at ALL. Does anyone else? The church as part of the community DOES work. Just. Barely. Most people who come come by themselves. I did. 'Eugene' did.
Does anybody here evangelize in any narrow sense? Or in ANY sense? Can anyone show me? How to do what we ALL aspirationally affirm in the liturgy?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Of course Christians have an obligation to evangelize. Jesus told his apostles to evangelize.
I'm not sure 'The mission of the Twelve' or Jesus sending the Seventy ahead Him was altogether evangelising in the way we think of it today.
If I knocked someone's door and said I'd come to cast out unclean spirits and raise the dead etc. the police would probably be called.
Knocking someone up to tell them a really cool preacher is coming to town would be a different matter .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard
You're right. We don't do it. Mainstream Christians don't do it, and in the meantime they watch their churches decline and disappear; and evangelicals have grown increasingly reluctant to do it, and even when they do, their results are often meagre, and their conversions fragile.
Many of us want to argue that there are sensible theological reasons for not engaging in intentional evangelism. Maybe this is true. But in an ever-changing world, this is only going to lead to fewer and fewer Christians, more church closures, and the retreating impact of Christianity in the cultures where we live. If we're resigned to that, fair enough. (We might even believe that this is what God wants.) But perhaps we ought to be honest about it and say so.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
We used to go door-to-door quite a lot when I was involved with the house-church scene, Mudfrog and I've known Pentecostals and conservative evangelical FIEC types who have done the same. Some of these people were quite 'good' at it and had an engaging manner.
I get the impression that it is less common now than it was about 25 or 30 years ago.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Does anybody here evangelize in any narrow sense? Or in ANY sense? Can anyone show me? How to do what we ALL aspirationally affirm in the liturgy?
I do, I think... I pray for the spiritual vision to notice opportunities to talk about Jesus, and also the courage to take those opportunities.
I don't door-knock or anything like that, but I am (sometimes...) deliberately open about my faith. I might, for example, tell my workmates about the great talk I heard at Sunday's church service, or I might talk with my neighbour or my family about what I've been learning through my latest theology course assignment.
Really, I think a lot of the time we tie ourselves up in knots unnecessarily. Isn't a huge part of 'evangelism' just being open and real about our faith and what Jesus means to us?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Does anybody here evangelize in any narrow sense? Or in ANY sense? Can anyone show me? How to do what we ALL aspirationally affirm in the liturgy?
One ministry colleague recently drew a useful distinction between implicit and explicit evangelism. In implicit evangelism the church does its "salt and light" bit in the name of Christ, affirming they are christians but not necessarily saying the name of Jesus out loud at every opportunity. I believe the church in general and christians individually gain legitimacy through doing so.
Once you have gained legitimacy, plenty of individual opportunities for explicit evangelism (which I might summarise as "Christ died for our sins") arise.
In my experience many churches that focus solely on "explicit" evangelism do not see themselves as "in but not of" the world.
quote:
I know of no clergy who are any good at it. I mean, at ALL. Does anyone else? The church as part of the community DOES work. Just. Barely. Most people who come come by themselves. I did. 'Eugene' did.
But this is what is referred to in our church (after the person who first formulated it) as the Marie-Jo principle of evangelism: the church preaches the gospel in one place, and God brings people in from somewhere else. If you came to it, I think it means your church was preaching the gospel somewhere.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nice Eutychus. Thank you.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Do Christians who believe in Hell have an obligation to assist the non-believers and those Christians they believe to be following the wrong path?
Or can they merrily watch the benighted lie down on the conveyor to the Eternal Crematorium?
How many Christians really, deeply and truly believe in hell today, and that non-believers are destined for it? If they are evangelising, is the suggestion that non-Christians will go to hell if they do not 'turn to Christ' going to have any effect at all these days?
If there are those who think I am a sinner, I would be interested to hear how they would justify that!
I'd also ask them to tell me where this hell they think I'm headed for is.
[ 28. April 2014, 09:41: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
How many Christians really, deeply and truly believe in hell today, and that non-believers are destined for it? If they are evangelising, is the suggestion that non-Christians will go to hell if they do not 'turn to Christ' going to have any effect at all these days?
If there are those who think I am a sinner, I would be interested to hear how they would justify that!
I'd also ask them to tell me where this hell they think I'm headed for is.
It's not so much about their judging you as a sinner or their view of hell, as about their letting you know that sin creates a barrier between you and God from your side. That might encourage you to look to your own failings and accept God's offer of relationship as extended through Christ.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It's not so much about their judging you as a sinner or their view of hell, as about their letting you know that sin creates a barrier between you and God from your side. That might encourage you to look to your own failings and accept God's offer of relationship as extended through Christ.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Yes, I am well aware of my failings, but as an atheist I take full responsibility for them myself. May I ask what you think I might have done which counts as a 'sin', rather than a really daft decision, or a stupid mistake?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Imagine these possible scenarios:
1. A Jewish adult converts to Christianity and is baptized at your church. All of his/her Jewish friends and family disown him/her.
2. Same as 1., but his/her Jewish friends and family continue to associate with him/her, while remaining deeply sad.
3. Same as 1., but some of his/her Jewish friends and family support him/her, but some of the closest people in his/her life disassociate themselves from him/her.
If the convert is genuinely happy, I can't say his/her conversion is a bad thing, but should Christians try to make such conversions happen? If such a person comes to church asking to learn about converting, how enthusiastic should Christians be in response? What if the last remaining Jewish person in an ancient Jewish community converts? If you think Judaism is a special case, substitute Islam or any other religion. What if the last member of a tribal society to refuse to convert to a Western religion converts?
Does Christianity have any obligation to protect other religions from itself? Other religions may not grant Christianity the same treatment, but does that matter? I find it wrong, for example, that some Muslims see harmonious coexistence with Christians, especially in Muslim countries, as only possible if Muslim conversions to Christianity do not occur and are not encouraged. But I feel that the loss of any religious tradition from the world is something to mourn and perhaps something to work against - but in a way that respects everyone's freedom of conscience and freedom to practice the faith of their choosing.
I also think that it's not really possible for any non-Christian to convert to Christianity, even if they retain much of their native culture, without losing some very vital aspects of the culture or worldview of their previous religious background. This worries me, although I am not sure what to do about it.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by jacobsen:
That is still not our business. The only salvation which concerns me is my own, and that, given the Eternal's infinite stubbornness, will probably happen, even if, as C.S.Lewis described his own experience, I am dragged reluctantly (kicking and screaming?) into the Christian camp.
Really?
Do you think Jesus and the apostles were only concerned with their own salvation?
quote:
originally posted by rolyn:
I'm not sure 'The mission of the Twelve' or Jesus sending the Seventy ahead Him was altogether evangelising in the way we think of it today.
If I knocked someone's door and said I'd come to cast out unclean spirits and raise the dead etc. the police would probably be called.
Knocking someone up to tell them a really cool preacher is coming to town would be a different matter .
Door knockers are door knockers. Perhaps, you find one less annoying. Where do you think these cool preachers did their cool preaching? Read Acts 2. How annoying must Pentecost have been to those in Jerusalem?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Do Christians who believe in Hell have an obligation to assist the non-believers and those Christians they believe to be following the wrong path?
Or can they merrily watch the benighted lie down on the conveyor to the Eternal Crematorium?
How many Christians really, deeply and truly believe in hell today, and that non-believers are destined for it? If they are evangelising, is the suggestion that non-Christians will go to hell if they do not 'turn to Christ' going to have any effect at all these days?
If there are those who think I am a sinner, I would be interested to hear how they would justify that!
I'd also ask them to tell me where this hell they think I'm headed for is.
Hell?
It's just one of the infinite number of universes some cosmologists tell us must exist.
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Christianity used to be able to make Christian Jews. Add Christ to Jews. It used to be able to graft Him on to Greeks, Romans, Ethiopians without demanding that they utterly repudiate their cultures. Funnily enough much of those cultures have been brought in to Christianity and made mandatory aspects of it. When it can rediscover that knack it will be able to make Christian Hindus and Christian Muslims and Christian secularists. Until then, the only way it can grow is by breeding and buying the poor.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Until then, the only way it can grow is by breeding and buying the poor.
WTF????
We don't buy the poor, thank you very much, nor do any missionaries I know. We ARE the poor.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Christianity used to be able to make Christian Jews. Add Christ to Jews. It used to be able to graft Him on to Greeks, Romans, Ethiopians without demanding that they utterly repudiate their cultures. Funnily enough much of those cultures have been brought in to Christianity and made mandatory aspects of it. When it can rediscover that knack it will be able to make Christian Hindus and Christian Muslims and Christian secularists. Until then, the only way it can grow is by breeding and buying the poor.
Christianity made huge changes to those cultures, and those cultures made huge changes to it.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
Sure, Martin's last post was a load of nonsense but it sounded so deep and right on and there is surely something to be said for that. Don't ask me what but something. You shouldn't take it so personally. Lighten up Lamb Chopped. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
If the convert is genuinely happy, I can't say his/her conversion is a bad thing, but should Christians try to make such conversions happen? If such a person comes to church asking to learn about converting, how enthusiastic should Christians be in response? What if the last remaining Jewish person in an ancient Jewish community converts? If you think Judaism is a special case, substitute Islam or any other religion. What if the last member of a tribal society to refuse to convert to a Western religion converts?
Does Christianity have any obligation to protect other religions from itself?
Becoming a Christian isn't a guarantee of being happy, though. Conversion can be a struggle for some people, either internally or externally. As we know, it can lead to all sorts of complications and even persecution in some contexts. If you're arguing that people should only become Christians if it makes their lives simpler and easier, then the Bible doesn't really help you with that.
OTOH, I do think churches should seriously consider the cultural and social issues connected with evangelism and conversion. In my city there are many districts with a high percentage of Muslims. If churches in those areas want to evanglise locally then they need to become knowledgeable about Islam, consider the implications of conversion for Muslims, and should ensure that the church family can offer decent support to converts or to people who want to explore the faith.
In reality, few churches in these areas are really serious about evangelising Muslims, and some wouldn't even dream of trying. These churches tend to be quite small, and it's hard to see how they'll have a long-term future if they can't share the gospel with the people in the vicinity. But maybe that's just how things have to be.
All things considered, though, British churches don't have to worry about overevangelising any particular group of people; that's a non-issue in our context. (As for Jews, most of them are already marrying out of their own accord, and I don't think it's because they're becoming devout Christians.)
The attempted conversion of small isolated tribes is a rather different issue, IMO. At this stage I think Western evangelists have more than enough work to do in their own countries, and they should leave everyone else alone.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by stonespring:
If such a person comes to church asking to learn about converting, how enthusiastic should Christians be in response? What if the last remaining Jewish person in an ancient Jewish community converts? If you think Judaism is a special case, substitute Islam or any other religion. What if the last member of a tribal society to refuse to convert to a Western religion converts?
I'm OK with all that happening. Again, it comes from believing Jesus is God. I was a pluralist once. Then, not wanting to leave my brain at the door, I thought through the ramifications of what I prayed and claimed to believe.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Sure, Martin's last post was a load of nonsense but it sounded so deep and right on and there is surely something to be said for that. Don't ask me what but something. You shouldn't take it so personally. Lighten up Lamb Chopped.
You try living with these accusations lifelong while simultaneously being shaken down for money you don't even possess. I swear, sometimes I want to live in a cardboard box, the way people judge our occupation and home. And the people who consider evangelism as akin to shooting the last passenger pigeon--Pfehhh. These people have as much of a right to hear the Gospel and act (or not) on it, as we do, and should not be deprived just because we like living cultural museum pieces.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Sure, Martin's last post was a load of nonsense but it sounded so deep and right on and there is surely something to be said for that. Don't ask me what but something. You shouldn't take it so personally. Lighten up Lamb Chopped.
You try living with these accusations lifelong while simultaneously being shaken down for money you don't even possess. I swear, sometimes I want to live in a cardboard box, the way people judge our occupation and home. And the people who consider evangelism as akin to shooting the last passenger pigeon--Pfehhh. These people have as much of a right to hear the Gospel and act (or not) on it, as we do, and should not be deprived just because we like living cultural museum pieces.
I know that arguing about the value of other religions risks sounding like the far-right rhetoric of "whites staying with whites," "blacks staying with blacks," "Christians staying with Christians," "Muslims staying with Muslims," etc. And of course there's a bit of bleeding heart hypocrisy in it, too. If a previously-uncontacted tribe is found in the Amazon, it really isn't for anyone to say if individual members of that tribe are better off living the way they have for centuries or adopting a Western lifestyle (and the mere fact that they have been contacted means that they will be at risk of diseases they are not immune to and all kinds of other dangers of contact that will affect them no matter what kind of life they choose to live). And if the "noble" people who contact them decide to encourage them to remain as "noble savages" (ick) then its very likely that someone else will just move in to exploit them.
I'm not suggesting that Christianity become an ethnically exclusive religion or that people's curiosity and consciences should be discounted if they are interested in Christianity just because they come from some religious background that "deserves protection."
And choosing to take a side on doctrinal issues does involve more intellectual rigor than basically deciding to enjoy the parts of a religious tradition that you like, ignore the parts you don't like, and refuse to call any other religious tradition wrong because it makes you feel uncomfortable. But actually believing in a religion involves making certain assumptions about the world that seem completely arbitrary.
That said, I don't see any reason to assume that all the hypocrites like me would be better off outside of the Churches where we can't cause any harm to religions we don't really believe in anyway.
I don't know what to think when people convert to Christianity. I understand why people celebrate and why Christianity would say that people should celebrate conversions. And, not being raised to practice the religion I was baptized in, I made a decision of sorts to continue with my Christian initiation myself as an adult. But I think it's wrong to think that anyone's conversion to Christianity is purely a good thing. The truth is, only the person undergoing the conversion really knows how good it is or not (and God does too, of course).
I admit to being particularly uncomfortable with the whole issue of Jewish conversion to Christianity. I know that many Churches make a point of avoiding explicit evangelism to Jews but I'm even concerned about how even conversion to Christianity that is completely initiated by the convert is seen as more catastrophic by traditional Judaism than just about any other religion. Christianity and Judaism have an inherently competitive nature when it comes to the Jewish people and I have no idea what doctrinal explanation can resolve it. If any religion deserves to be protected from Christianity, it is Judaism. But if a Jewish person wants to convert, it is wrong to prevent them from doing so. I just find the whole situation even more morally conflicting than others.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
So, you don't want any religion to disappear but you have no problem with vastly changing Christianity by removing all the elements that make you uncomfortable? Removing all the elements that make you uncomfortable would either destroy Christianity or create another religion. Hypocrites harm Christianity, remain silent, or leave.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I don't know what to think when people convert to Christianity. I understand why people celebrate and why Christianity would say that people should celebrate conversions. And, not being raised to practice the religion I was baptized in, I made a decision of sorts to continue with my Christian initiation myself as an adult. But I think it's wrong to think that anyone's conversion to Christianity is purely a good thing. The truth is, only the person undergoing the conversion really knows how good it is or not (and God does too, of course).
Well, obviously, only God can say who is acceptable in his sight, and only He knows which conversions are 'authentic' or not. But I think it would be hypocritical to be routinely hesitant about someone else's conversion if we expect others to accept us as 'true' Christians! (If we have experience of false conversions I suppose some reticence would be understandable.)
quote:
I admit to being particularly uncomfortable with the whole issue of Jewish conversion to Christianity. I know that many Churches make a point of avoiding explicit evangelism to Jews but I'm even concerned about how even conversion to Christianity that is completely initiated by the convert is seen as more catastrophic by traditional Judaism than just about any other religion. Christianity and Judaism have an inherently competitive nature when it comes to the Jewish people and I have no idea what doctrinal explanation can resolve it. If any religion deserves to be protected from Christianity, it is Judaism. But if a Jewish person wants to convert, it is wrong to prevent them from doing so. I just find the whole situation even more morally conflicting than others.
I can see where you're coming from in terms of wanting to protect Jews from the savagery of Christians. But OTOH it was surely a bit of a waste of time Jesus being born a Jew if the Jews were the least in need of him!
Interestingly, I understand that the number of Orthodox Jews has actually risen in recent years, They're more fertile then other Jews, and much more likely to practice their religion. I presume that they would be the least likely of all Jews to convert, so they're not the ones you need to worry about. It would be interesting to know what kinds of Jews are most likely to convert to Christianity (as opposed to simply becoming secular, or marrying out).
[ 28. April 2014, 22:40: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Until then, the only way it can grow is by breeding and buying the poor.
WTF????
We don't buy the poor, thank you very much, nor do any missionaries I know. We ARE the poor.
The poor certainly get bombarded with more evangelism than the rich do. Why?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
How are the poor bombarded with evangelism?
What would bombarding the rich with evangelism look like?
If the gospel is good news to the poor, shouldn't you want them to hear it?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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