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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Christian Obligation to Evangelise
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Jesus the whup-ass anti-Commie bastards?
Jesus the starve-the-poor-into-submission?
[ 04. May 2014, 09:23: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I see no evidence Jesus was concerned one way or the other with a political philosophy that didn't yet exist. Rich and poor alike should submit to Jesus. That's the point. Problem with political Christianity is it's proponents cannot submit to Jesus unless they remain convinced Jesus shared their political opinions. As a result, they'll never make Jesus Lord of their lives until they allow Jesus to change them instead of creating their own Jesus.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We worry about 'Eugene' frightening the little old lady brigade. Yesterday I realised the threat is far more real the other way. Eugene scruffily comes, week in, week out and we tolerate him, some give him the time of day, try and behave toward him as if they loved him.
He was talking to one of the LOLB as I passed by to get a coffee (I'd already abandoned him once to go and have a pee). His favourite I reckon. She obviously reminds him of his mother whom he lost among five close family members in recent years. Along with his job. And his will to live.
She - the Mother of All Living - grabbed me by the sleeve as I walked past and said that she was asking Eugene why he came to church. I go in to submarine mode at these moment. Dive! Dive! Go quiet, non-committal. Eugene said that people change. I thought that fascinating. She asked him again why did he come and whether he understood everything he was hearing. So I asked TMOAL why she came. She said that it was to worship Jesus who was her Lord and Saviour by dying for her sins. She smiled beatifically and embraced herself.
I wanted to explore what she meant by worship as we'd just had a sermon on the sheep and goats at the beginning of Christian Aid week and there was Jesus scruffily, brokenly, inarticulately, desperately sitting in front of us.
But I was in submarine mode and needed to get a coffee as a distraction and by the time I got back they'd gone.
I hope he's back next week. And that's just the tip of an iceberg with two more Eugene related incidents in the same day which are even closer to home.
Good news eh?
Yeah, which Jesus? Who is Jesus?
[ 05. May 2014, 11:03: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And isn't you, my and everyone elses' mental image of God false?
Or is the classic purgation, illumination etc. false?
I don't have a mental image of God apart from Jesus. He's not false. False images of God are those contrary to God revealed to the Church. My understanding of idols is the same one Moses had. Now few people worship idols today. Yes, I've preached sermons about making idols of physical stuff. However, worshipping a graven image is still very much a sin. Didn't think that was controversial.
OK - so S. John of the Cross was wrong.
There is no need for us to purge false images of God before illumination and union.
How easy and wide is the path of those who are certain that they are right.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Believe me Gwai, I'll thank him for forgiving us.
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Love wins
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And isn't you, my and everyone elses' mental image of God false?
Or is the classic purgation, illumination etc. false?
I don't have a mental image of God apart from Jesus. He's not false. False images of God are those contrary to God revealed to the Church. My understanding of idols is the same one Moses had. Now few people worship idols today. Yes, I've preached sermons about making idols of physical stuff. However, worshipping a graven image is still very much a sin. Didn't think that was controversial.
I've been thinkiong about this, on and off, today.
It seems to me that you are taking the words 'idol' and 'worship' literally.
Worship need not mean 'bowing down'. The origin of the word is something like worth-scipe - that do you give worth to? What is your ultimate concern? a la Tillich. What do you live for?
For many, it is fame, success and money. For others it is 'the family' and/or 'the American way of life'
They are all idols as they are less than Almighty God.
Many idolise pop stars and celebrities. Idolatry is alive and well in Western culture.
And as for God being seen in Jesus - which Jesus do you mean? Don't people make Jesus in their own image and then make the texts of the NT fit in?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Ok. I won't call them idols and I apologize for doing so. But what exactly is an idol? Outside of Judaism and Christianity, is it a bad thing?
See my comments on What is Idolatry? by Roger Hooker
Your post seems to be about why murtis are not idols in the Christian definition of the term, which you take to mean an object that is the God that is worshipped, and where an idol is a bad thing. I am referring to a more general definition of "idol" such as this on dictionary.com:
an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed.
By this definition, the RC blessed sacrament is an idol unless you go all-out Thomas Aquinas in explaining why it's not. (I'm perfectly comfortable in believing that the Blessed Sacrament is God and that I can worship It and pray to It).
Been thinking about this.
If Christians will not 'worship a murti' because it isn't they tradition, what about the blessed sacrament?
As in the reserved sacrament consecrated by a woman priest for someone in FiF?
By an Anglican for an RC?
By an episcopi vagantes from a mainstream Christian?
To what extent to we enter in and respect another person's faith and to what extend to we not?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
This RC essay disagrees.
And this.
And the Jesuits.
I said false images of God are contrary to those revealed to the Church. Of course they should be removed. Could you show me where John of the Cross suggests bowing down to graven images of deities foreign to Christianity? How about where Ignatius of Loyola instructs us to offer prayers to non-Christian deity.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Ok. I won't call them idols and I apologize for doing so. But what exactly is an idol? Outside of Judaism and Christianity, is it a bad thing?
See my comments on What is Idolatry? by Roger Hooker
Your post seems to be about why murtis are not idols in the Christian definition of the term, which you take to mean an object that is the God that is worshipped, and where an idol is a bad thing. I am referring to a more general definition of "idol" such as this on dictionary.com:
an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed.
By this definition, the RC blessed sacrament is an idol unless you go all-out Thomas Aquinas in explaining why it's not. (I'm perfectly comfortable in believing that the Blessed Sacrament is God and that I can worship It and pray to It).
Been thinking about this.
If Christians will not 'worship a murti' because it isn't they tradition, what about the blessed sacrament?
As in the reserved sacrament consecrated by a woman priest for someone in FiF?
By an Anglican for an RC?
By an episcopi vagantes from a mainstream Christian?
To what extent to we enter in and respect another person's faith and to what extend to we not?
If an RC walks into Eucharistic Adoration at, say, a Polish National Catholic Church parish, he or she is absolutely free to participate. And at a PNCC or Eastern Orthodox service, an RC can receive communion if they are in a situation where they cannot reach an RC Mass to receive communion (and if the other jurisdiction allows it, which unfortunately is not the case with Eastern Orthodox services). The issue with the eucharist in the Anglican communion and with female priests (or male priests ordained by female bishops) is that the RCC teaching is said to be that the eucharist in those cases is invalid - ie, it's not the eucharist at all. Now, I don't agree with this, but that's what the standard RC response would be.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Wow. That's Christianity eh? What a crock of shit we infest.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
You aren't RCC. So you aren't a part of that shot at all. Does your parish even offer Benediction?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What?
No but it just paid for a former drug addict to go on a first aid course.
So yes. They blessed him if that's what you mean. But they didn't perform some exclusive, excluding, esoteric, weird, patriarchal, misogynistic rite over him. No.
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Love wins
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Benediction is misogynistic? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[ 05. May 2014, 22:43: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
So, let me get this straight. You were upset that Roman Catholics wouldn't recognize the Anglican sacrament even though you believe Benediction to be a bad thing. In other words, you denigrate a rite that is meaningful to millions of Christians with a litany of nonsense but are upset that a Roman Catholic wouldn't participate if said demonic rite were held at your parish? On the other hand, I'm assuming you wouldn't participate in RCC Benediction either would you?
That doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me.
And Leo would call such behavior rude.
But in any event...
Speaking of Leo. Perhaps you can settle an argument Leo and I were having. Say your parish, not some hate filled Roman parish but your good and right on parish, decided to offer Benediction. A Hindu, who happens to be in attendance, doesn't participate. Leo believes the Hindu is being disrespectful. I disagree. What say you?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Any and all inclusive tradition is fine. I LOVE the Nunc Dimittis. I love the format that is at least 1700 years old, I love being INCLUDED in that fellowship of saints, being part of the church with you, with those united in schism and protest.
It's when it continues to be weird, pathetic, legalistic, narrow, exclusive, esoteric, alienating, RUDE ... been there.
Am there as you said. In your excellent company.
Mea culpa.
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Love wins
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
How inclusive and respectful is the language you use to describe Benediction? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Any and all inclusive tradition is fine. I LOVE the Nunc Dimittis. I love the format that is at least 1700 years old, I love being INCLUDED in that fellowship of saints, being part of the church with you, with those united in schism and protest.
It's when it continues to be weird, pathetic, legalistic, narrow, exclusive, esoteric, alienating, RUDE ... been there.
Am there as you said. In your excellent company.
Mea culpa.
I've never understood how anyone could be offended by anothers rites or that they don't recognise your rites. What difference does it make to you? It's like those muslims who say, we recognise your prophet so why don't you recognise ours? Completely bonkers, if you ask me.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The rite to exclude?
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Love wins
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
The rite to exclude?
Any religious claim is exclusive to a lesser or greater degree. Live with it, I say. If one is confident enough in their own faith then it shouldn't particularly bother them what others think of it. Personally I'm not into looking for other peoples acceptance as if my faith somehow depended upon it. Do I care that some Christians might not consider Orthodoxy Christian, for instance? No. Why? Because I think they're wrong. It doesn't bother me nbecause it doesn't change what I believe.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
This RC essay disagrees.
And this.
And the Jesuits.
I said false images of God are contrary to those revealed to the Church. Of course they should be removed. Could you show me where John of the Cross suggests bowing down to graven images of deities foreign to Christianity? How about where Ignatius of Loyola instructs us to offer prayers to non-Christian deity.
You are still failing to understand because you are taking things literally - am talking about mental, not carved images.
Yes, I'm talking about literal idols because the second commandment was talking about literal idols. You now want to claim that the second commandment had nothing to do with literal idols and only meant false mental images of God. You claim that Christians are rude if they don't worship Hindu idols. Fine. You want to appeal to John of the Cross and the Jesuits. Tell me where they say suggest we worship Hindu idols.
This is getting absurd. Jews and Christians throughout history have been killed for refusing to worship the deities of other religions. Turns out according to you, they were just being rude and disrespectful.
There was a time this would have frustrated me. It no longer does. I now find it all quite amusing.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
The rite to exclude?
Roman Catholics have no problem with you participating in Benediction at a Roman Catholic parish. They just don't participate in Anglican benediction. Why do you even care? You are quite dismissive of the whole thing anyway. One should only respect as much tolerance from others as they are willing to extend. Our Lord did say something about doing unto others.
Anglo-Catholics do Benediction. Other Anglicans offer as much derision of the rite as you do of Roman Catholic Benediction. Somehow I'm supposed to believe that it's Benediction that is exclusive and not it's detractors.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by PorridgThe gospel was actually "news," (whether regarded as good or not) at that point. 2,000 years on, and now a religion with global distribution, it's not really news any more. Most of those posting on these boards live in places where Christianity, far from being an upstart new little movement, is the majority stance, at least nominally, for vast swathes of the population.
This is why.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Well, I don't invent interpretations of texts that contradict their literal meaning and then pretend my novel interpretation is the one actually taught by the Church. If that's what you mean by a monochrome or whatever you said view of inspiration of scripture, then I will gladly plead guilty as charged. True, I just call it reading for comprehension but a rose by any other name is still as sweet. Applying the Leonine approach to hermeneutics to that last phrase, we can conclude Juliet loves Romeo only because his name is Romeo and would hate him otherwise. It's the view of all the noteworthy Shakespearean scholars. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
God bless you Beeswax Altar.
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Love wins
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
And you too, Martin.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I'm talking about literal idols because the second commandment was talking about literal idols.
It seems like you have a very limited, monochrome view of the inspiration of scripture.
leo, stonespring's reference to the worship of idols was pretty clearly about graven images of deities which Christianity does not recognize as such. You seem to be either missing the point spectacularly or engaging in sophistry here.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And God bless those who exclude me in His name and God and they forgive me for cursing them above.
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Love wins
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Jews and Christians throughout history have been killed for refusing to worship the deities
For example Polycarp. The image to which he refused to burn incense to was part of the imperial cult. At root, it was about who is Lord - Jesus or the emperor.
A modern equivalent would be pledging allegiance to the US flag, symbol of US imperialism.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I'm talking about literal idols because the second commandment was talking about literal idols.
It seems like you have a very limited, monochrome view of the inspiration of scripture.
leo, stonespring's reference to the worship of idols was pretty clearly about graven images of deities which Christianity does not recognize as such. You seem to be either missing the point spectacularly or engaging in sophistry here.
He asked about 'an act of worship of an idol ' - idol doesn't just mean graven image. Worship does not just mean bowing.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Leo:
Not sophistry.
Yes sophistry
quote:
Christians can get all self-righteous in thinking that their religion is better than others and that they are not syncretists when, all along, they have syncretised Christianity with oppressive politics.
I do believe my religion is better than others. Again, it comes with believing Jesus is God Incarnate and the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. If I believe God became human, then it stands to reason that I believe all religions that teach otherwise are at best less right.
I agree with you about Christians syncretizing with oppressive politics. Take a look at all the Socialist regimes of the 20th and 21st Centuries. Most of them were oppressive. And yet we still have Christian Socialists. Go figure.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Take a look at all the Socialist regimes of the 20th and 21st Centuries. Most of them were oppressive. And yet we still have Christian Socialists. Go figure.
Can anybody find a single example of any type of government which has not oppressed somebody? Beyond, say, 6th-grade Student Council?
[ 07. May 2014, 19:10: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Take a look at all the Socialist regimes of the 20th and 21st Centuries. Most of them were oppressive. And yet we still have Christian Socialists. Go figure.
Can anybody find a single example of any type of government which has not oppressed somebody? Beyond, say, 6th-grade Student Council?
When I was on my 6th-grade Student Council, we were made the stooges of the administration in having to defend and promote an oppressive dress code to the students. So, no, there is not government that is not oppressive. I'm not an anarchist, minarchist, or libertarian, though, so I think that some forms of government oppression are preferable to having no or hardly any government at all.
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