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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is music really all about sex?
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
"Man" in Jesu of Man's desiring is probably meant as 'Mankind', (male and female)
I don't believe Jesus had a downer on eros yet Christianity has, for Centuries, been mocked for it's uneasy relationship with sex . Christian worship, music and songs can evoke eros as well as agape . I don't believe we should feel it is wrong to experience the full spectrum of human emotion and possibility during worship , providing it stops short of carnal thought or action.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
"Man" in Jesu of Man's desiring is probably meant as 'Mankind', (male and female)
I know.
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Christian worship, music and songs can evoke eros as well as agape .
I complete don't get what you are saying. Storge, philia and agape I get. But eros? no. CHristianish songs about partners, i guess. Christian songs about God? Not so much.
However, regardless of that, the premise that music is sex is ridiculous.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
We say they "sing" because the frequency of the noises they make are recognisable - often as quite remarkable bits of Beethoven!
I'd say you have that backwards, because the birdsong came first and Beethoven is known to have notated birdsong in his notebooks.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Second movement of the 6th Symphony (Pastoral) has this lovely evocation of bird song (cuckoo), which makes orfeo's point.
I think where the church has often gone wrong re eros has been because it was conscious that lust involved objectification (wrong) and selfishness (wrong). Objectification and selfishness in sexual behaviour are no more and no less bad than in other aspects of human behaviour, what my mum calls putting yourself first and putting things before people.
eros is not necessarily objectifying or selfish, and indeed when it is either of those things, it messes up sexual relationships. As any relationship counsellor will tell you. A purified eros, a more agape- like eros, is a very good thing.
I'm not sure what rolyn was alluding to, but it may have been the fact that worship may induce a passion for God and some of that may be reminiscent of eros-feelings. But if objectification and selfishness come in, that's not good. As a friend of mine puts it by rephrasing a contemporary song, God help us if we are really singing, "it's all about me, Jesus. It's not about You, as if I should do things your way". And that is a danger.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
eros is not necessarily objectifying or selfish, and indeed when it is either of those things, it messes up sexual relationships. As any relationship counsellor will tell you. A purified eros, a more agape- like eros, is a very good thing.
I'm not sure what rolyn was alluding to, but it may have been the fact that worship may induce a passion for God and some of that may be reminiscent of eros-feelings.
Thankyou Barnabas62 that was something of what I was trying to get at . Needed to sleep on it before answering lilbuddha .
Unfortunately Christianity did itself no favours by equating eros to lust , and trying to deny the existence of both in the worship of Christ.
I accept we're in a borderline area, clearly it is wrong to be deliberately engage in selfish lustful thoughts or action on the premise that eros evoking worship *caused me to do it*.
Coming back to music I wonder if that was a factor in the emergence of sexualised music,(early Rock and Roll) 60 years ago . Something that has become more and more developed, and still with us in a big way, while traditional Christianity continues to fade into obscurity.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Anyway, why did our ancient forebears (Jubal or somebody else) invent music?
No, music is not really all about sex.
And we didn't invent music. It's a response to the divine.
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a theological scrapbook
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
No, not all music is about sex but there are certain points in music where the release of thematic tension can be likened to post-coital glow ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Absolutely. Music is all about tension and release of tension. Everything from sonata form to just going up a scale - do re mi fa so la ti do - is about having a starting point, building some tension and then releasing it. Heck, years ago I got taught the basic principles of developing a musical climax with the tune 'Three Blind Mice'.
If we're talking about studies, I believe there's also a study that shows the most popular rhythms in music tend to match natural rhythms, like the pace of a heartbeat. There are some intriguing arguments that our response to music occurs at a fundamental biological level.
[ 27. April 2014, 13:24: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
rolyn and Baranabas62,
From my understanding of the word Eros, it would appear you are bending the meaning and intent if the word to fit a usage the inventors would not have contemplated.
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Tension and release. Yes, tension and release can be part of music, but does not need to be. But even it were, there are a number of tension and release situations that involve no sex.
I think we might be slipping into Freud territory here. It is more likely that predilection rather than any inherent quality is influencing this viewpoint.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
And we didn't invent music. It's a response to the divine.
Those aren't mutually exclusive. The Book of Common Prayer is a response to the divine, but that doesn't mean it isn't invented.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
rolyn and Baranabas62,
From my understanding of the word Eros, it would appear you are bending the meaning and intent if the word to fit a usage the inventors would not have contemplated.
Eros in Ancient Greek meant intimate love. It isn't found in the NT but it is used in this way in the Greek Septuagint translation of the OT. [ The NT word translated as lust is "epithumia". ]
Some thoughts of Plato may clarify the connection. Here is a quote from the Wiki article on the concept of eros.
quote:
The ancient philosopher Plato developed an idealistic concept of eros which would prove to be very influential in modern times. In general, Plato did not consider physical attraction to be a necessary part of eros. "Platonic love" in this original sense can be attained by the intellectual purification of eros from carnal into ideal form. This process is examined in Plato's dialogue the Symposium. Plato argues there that eros is initially felt for a person, but with contemplation it can become an appreciation for the beauty within that person, or even an appreciation for beauty itself in an ideal sense. As Plato expresses it, eros can help the soul to "remember" beauty in its pure form. It follows from this, for Plato, that eros can contribute to an understanding of truth.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Male birds are not singing for the females, they are singing to keep their territory and warn other males off.
It's both, depending on the bird and the song in question.
( bird nut enters)
Or it could be a warning of intruder presence, or a discovery of a food cache, or a location song ( the lyrics of which would be , " I've been flying back and forth for an hour- where the hell are the other finches?" ...
Bird nerds distinguish songs, which are associated with breeding behaviour, and calls, which are all the other messages. It would be tempting to look at the thread title and analogize between human music and language, wouldn't it?
A voice coach once told my class, "Music is song and dance." I think what he meant was that music is what we get when we do what our bodies seem to want to do - sing and dance - when we're feeling passionate about something. "Singing and dancing for joy" isn't a metaphor, it's a description. And of course, we can dance when we're angry and sing when we're sad, and everything in between. Sometimes we use just our bodies, sometimes we use instruments.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
I can't recall the details of this recollection but maybe someone more astute can. I remember in a Teaching Co course on Music Appreciation that the instructor said that at the time when Rome was threatened by Goths and Huns the Church issued three "colloraries" that prohibited any rhythmic music, any words that did not reflect sanctity and; I forget the third.
According to the instructor these three rules "saved civilization".
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If we're talking about studies, I believe there's also a study that shows the most popular rhythms in music tend to match natural rhythms, like the pace of a heartbeat. There are some intriguing arguments that our response to music occurs at a fundamental biological level.
That's probably why I like 'Hot Chocolate's Greatest Hits' blaring out in my works vehicle some days. I'd rather hoped it wasn't simply down to me being a sad 70's bar-stard .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I don't think that there is any question about song being used for sex-- and that being a lot of fun-- it's just a question of if it is all is is for. personally, I think we have a tendency to shift expression of passion and sensuality into sexual situations-- which is why people get so squicked out at certain types of praise songs.
The problem with doing that is there are all kinds of opportunities to be passionate and sensual, and if we imply to people that the only function of a given activity is to attract a mate, we plant an idea into people's heads that is going to only wind up making them miserable if they don't have a mate. People have enough problems without diluting one of their opportunities for pure joy.
And it is just a false idea. Sex is wonderful and amazing and beautiful, but it is not the only opportunity for intense sensual pleasure we have. Thank God. And music is an intense sensual pleasure in and of itself, whether or not it attracts anyone.
As for the circadian rhythm thing-- certainly those who work with little ones pass on the wisdom that the rhythm of a musical piece has a definite effect on their physical response. Therefore-- save the punk rock anthems for when you actually do want them bouncing all over the room like crazed meerkats, because that is exactly what their endocrine systems will tell them to do when they hear rhythms that resemble a hugely accelerated heartbeat.
I was told once that reggae is actually the perfect rhythm for keeping a classroom at a certain level of mellow, and my experiences trying this out leads me to encourage y'all parents/ teachers out there to try it yourselves.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
To be clear about those arguing that music is sex: Jesu of Man's Desiring is a homoerotic love song?
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I think we might be slipping into Freud territory here. It is more likely that predilection rather than any inherent quality is influencing this viewpoint.
So your first post was made in jest ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Nevermind if it was , made a good tangent . The quote Barnabas posted by Plato puts it better than anyone ever could .
The trouble with going Freud-side is that we soon get into the -- every single human motivation being influenced by the sex-drive-- bit , so there's no point in discussing any of it.
FWIW I don't really think music is all about sex . Such a viewpoint would be rather limiting and somewhat silly.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
FWIW I don't really think music is all about sex . Such a viewpoint would be rather limiting and somewhat silly.
I'm gonna venture to guess that most of us are on the same page, then because my sense that was the only idea that some folk were really resisting.
Humans are hardwired to be social-- not just with a mate, but with everyone. Music is a big part in addressing that biological need. And note I said "biological" rather than " psychological"-- because I believe community is a biological need. More than we realize.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I was plowing around my FB page looking for the "Fifty Shades of Grey" version of that I posted recently, but Zuckerberg screwed me over again.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
I can't recall the details of this recollection but maybe someone more astute can. I remember in a Teaching Co course on Music Appreciation that the instructor said that at the time when Rome was threatened by Goths and Huns the Church issued three "colloraries" that prohibited any rhythmic music, any words that did not reflect sanctity and; I forget the third.
According to the instructor these three rules "saved civilization".
May I offer the subjective observation that the guy sounds bananas?
That's another problem with connecting all sensuality with sex, you start to distrust things that are healthy and useful in their own right.
God gave us hips for shaking. It becomes sexy because it is proof that we are invested in a sensually abundant life.
[ 27. April 2014, 19:27: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
To be clear about those arguing that music is sex: Jesu of Man's Desiring is a homoerotic love song?
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I think we might be slipping into Freud territory here. It is more likely that predilection rather than any inherent quality is influencing this viewpoint.
So your first post was made in jest
Jest is not quite accurate, but it wasn't made seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
The trouble with going Freud-side is that we soon get into the -- every single human motivation being influenced by the sex-drive-- bit , so there's no point in discussing any of it.
Exactly my point in mentioning Freud.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Tension and release. Yes, tension and release can be part of music, but does not need to be. But even it were, there are a number of tension and release situations that involve no sex.
It is certainly true that you can have tension and release without sex.
But I'd be interested to know what music you think is lacking tension and release.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Gregorian chant. This is one reason I use ot to meditate and to relax for slumber.
ETA: I suppose their is technically very small changes in pitch that would qualify, but they are nominal.
[ 28. April 2014, 03:42: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But I'd be interested to know what music you think is lacking tension and release.
This is a bit of a tangent, but I don't think there's much release in Longplayer. Well, one not due for another 986 years anyway.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Gregorian chant. This is one reason I use ot to meditate and to relax for slumber.
ETA: I suppose their is technically very small changes in pitch that would qualify, but they are nominal.
Gregorian chant might just about qualify... I'm not all that familiar with it, musically. Because it's pretty much at the beginning of what is usually described as 'tonal' music.
I mentioned a scale before. The very essence of a scale is that some notes are more stable than others. The stablest note being the 'tonic' - if you're singing do re mi the tonic is do. It's the gravitational centre towards which the music pulls.
Pretty much all Western music operated on that system for a great many centuries. Popular music still uses. Serious 'classical' composers started breaking it down early in the 20th century.
When I'm talking about tension and release, I'm really talking about movement away from that gravitational centre being 'tension' and movement towards it being 'release'. Because that's what all Western music did for a very, very long time - on a small scale phrase by phrase, and then on a larger scale within a whole piece. The basic shape of many pieces of music is to start in a stable place, gradually move away from it, and then move back to it by the end. Arriving back at stability is part of what makes a piece feel 'finished'.
It is true that the DEGREE of tension and release varies considerably. Some periods of musical history preferred consonance and pleasant sounds, other periods preferred dissonance and drama.
[ 28. April 2014, 08:04: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
There is an uber-Calvinist, very strait-laced church near me that believes that the piano is the only appropriate instrument to play worship music on. Perhaps this is why...????
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There is an uber-Calvinist, very strait-laced church near me that believes that the piano is the only appropriate instrument to play worship music on. Perhaps this is why...????
If they have any instrument at all and sing anything other than the metrical Psalms, they are not uber-Calvinist.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It is said that the music that was popular when you were 17 is the music of your life. (I fall in the Beatles-to-Springsteen spectrum, so you can calculate my age pretty exactly.)
Surely it is not a coincidence that this is the age of peak sexual fervor.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
There really is no longer any such thing as the "music of a generation" because pop culture is divided into myriad niches with an increasingly irrelevant (and more difficult to identify) mainstream. That, and many young people define their musical tastes with recordings of music from a bygone era. Finally, there isn't that clear a division between "youth culture" and "adult culture" anymore - and I'm not just saying this because I am in my late 20's and therefore too old to have a relevant opinion about youth culture .
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There is an uber-Calvinist, very strait-laced church near me that believes that the piano is the only appropriate instrument to play worship music on. Perhaps this is why...????
Well, you know that the piano was the only instrument played in the first century Acts assemblies? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There is an uber-Calvinist, very strait-laced church near me that believes that the piano is the only appropriate instrument to play worship music on. Perhaps this is why...????
As a massive fan of Tori Amos, I reject absolutely any suggestion that piano-playing can't be about sex.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Preach.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sex is eros is yearning. Not the other way round.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lapsed heathen
Hurler on the ditch
# 4403
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Posted
Oh lets face it music, sex, conversation, art or whatever your having yourself are all about expression. It's not that all conversation is about getting laid any more than music is about getting laid. It's about expressing something you feel and some times you feel sad or lonely or angry or hurt or happy or elated or indeed horny.
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"We are the Easter people and our song is Alleluia"
Posts: 1361 | From: Marble county | Registered: Apr 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Well... Yeah. What's to face?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
My summary?
No, music is not all about sex, but there are times when I wish it was ...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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lapsed heathen
Hurler on the ditch
# 4403
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Well... Yeah. What's to face?
The fact that it's not all about sex. Disappointingly. Life would be so much simpler if it were.
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"We are the Easter people and our song is Alleluia"
Posts: 1361 | From: Marble county | Registered: Apr 2003
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