Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is nepotism alive and well in the church?
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
We have all hear about Joel Osteen's church in Texas (the biggest in the USA apparently). He took it over from his Dad. Even in Billy Graham's fiefdom his son has taken on the mantle of the esteemed man himself.
Is nepotism a factor in the UK church?
Saul the Apostle
-------------------- "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: Well...
Oh..............dear..............
Saul ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
-------------------- "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Interestingly, there were accusations of nepotism when Paul Beasley-Murray was appointed Principal of Spurgeon's College (Baptist) back in the 80s - his father George had been Principal, although with someone else in-between.
The accusations were unfounded, although I suspect that some members of the College Council may have been a bit entranced with the B-M name - after all, George had been a very distinguished theologian. [ 28. April 2014, 06:54: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
'Staying in the family' seems to be more common among the charismatic churches. Not only do we have instance of Terry & Joel Virgo linked to above, but Colin Urquhart's Kingdom Faith church is now led by his son Clive. Also, Roger & Faith Forster, who founded Ichthus, though still in oversight of all the churches in that network, have left the leadership of their home congregation to their daughter, Debbie.
I would hesitate to go to calling it nepotism, though. I think more understanding would be needed as to how the children of these ministers came to be in ministry themselves. More often than not, it's a case of them seeing what their parents do (as any child does) and choosing to follow in their footsteps.
When it comes to their particular appointments, though the circumstances may well warrant a susoicion of nepotism, I would rather be gracious and consider all parties innocent until proven guilty.
After all, shouldn't we know them by their fruit?
-------------------- I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it. Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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quote: Originally posted by TheAlethiophile: 'Staying in the family' seems to be more common among the charismatic churches.
I don't think the fact that they are charismatic has anything to do with it. It's really independent churches that do not have a structured ordination process, that have this issue.
In the Church of England many vicars' children enter ministry themselves. The difference is that they have to go through the studies and training. It's not possible for someone to just announce that their son will be the next parish priest.
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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quote: Originally posted by seekingsister: In the Church of England many vicars' children enter ministry themselves. The difference is that they have to go through the studies and training. It's not possible for someone to just announce that their son will be the next parish priest.
Do you know there is no training, or do you presume? I have known all of those I mentioned above and am aware that at least one did go through an intensive training course. The others I am unaware if they did or did not, but without knowing, I wouldn't cast aspersions.
-------------------- I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it. Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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quote: Originally posted by TheAlethiophile: [Do you know there is no training, or do you presume? I have known all of those I mentioned above and am aware that at least one did go through an intensive training course. The others I am unaware if they did or did not, but without knowing, I wouldn't cast aspersions.
I didn't say there was no training. I said there is no structured ordination process. Happy to be corrected if I am wrong. I spent many years in an independent evangelical church and my view is based on that. I did a lot of research on some of these churches in the UK when I was coming back to Christianity and the lack of clear structure in selection of leaders was what led me to avoid them.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I wouldn't cast aspersions, either. I know a few people who've entered the same profession as one of their parents (because of my age, usually the father) - my boiler engineer's son will inherit the business, for example, and my best man is a Rev, like his dad.
But. I think there's a difference between hoping and expecting. A friend has written a book on the problems family businesses face in handing off the company from its founder to the next generation down: there's a great deal of expectation that sons/daughters will not only know the business, but love it. Children will want to please their parents, no matter what dreams and ambitions they have of their own.
I'm therefore wary of dynasties - whatever competency that enabled the first of that line to succeed isn't necessarily transmissible either through genetics or teaching (Olympic athletes aside - the best indication of getting a medal is to have one or both parents former athletes). The idea in this case that the best person to lead a church is the child of the person who led the church previously - out of all the other people in the church - smacks of failure, not of success.
-------------------- Forward the New Republic
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think there can also be a spousal thing too, often in the sense of wives marrying a famous-name son in the expectation that this will secure them a leading place in a church or other organisation they admire. This too can put pressure on the son.
I'm really adverse to in-the-family appointments. I want my kids to be them, not extensions of me. In my secular job, one of my daughters is now project manager contributing to a programme I'm also subcontracting to, but by a completely independent route, and for a different aspect of the job. Which is weird in a nice kind of way.
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Are any of these people occupying jobs you'd like and feel you're better qualified to do?
If not, does any of this matter?
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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quote: Originally posted by Enoch: Are any of these people occupying jobs you'd like and feel you're better qualified to do?
If not, does any of this matter?
In the church I grew up in, I knew people who wanted to go into leadership and were hurt by being passed over for the child of a minister or the spouse of a minister's child.
It's not good for a church to have that type of resentment stewing in the pews.
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Eutychus
From the edge
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Posted
With regard to churches, to me it all comes down to checks and balances. While a son or daughter may be well-qualified for the position, it is going to be really hard to ensure relationships with them are not affected - and judgement not coloured - by their family ties.
As Doc Tor says, it's a source of potential weakness.
For similar reasons, I don't think it's a good idea for people to take on leadership positions within social action type charities of which they themselves have been beneficiaries.
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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hatless
 Shipmate
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quote: Originally posted by Enoch: Are any of these people occupying jobs you'd like and feel you're better qualified to do?
If not, does any of this matter?
If someone holds a job because, to some extent, of who they are (who's child they are), that will affect how they fill the role. There could be a sense of entitlement. They might bring a legacy or authority wrapped up in their name.
You wouldn't be expected to receive their leadership simply because of its quality, but because of its source. To question that leadership would be to challenge the tradition of the church.
-------------------- My crazy theology in novel form
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
In the US at least it seems to be very much a borrowing of the mentality that is common amongst most family businesses - albeit applied to the church. Even before direct succession it's not unusual to see mega churches where the majority of the leaders immediate (and in some cases extended) family is employed within the church in some capacity.
I think it's common amongst some churches in the UK which naturally look to North America as a model for some of the same reasons. I'm not sure that's the case with all the churches mentioned above, but it is a factor for some.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
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The problem exists among some of the mainline denominations that are ethnically sourced, for example, the Lutherans who came out of Saxony. I remember having a perfectly normal relationship with the mother of my son's classmate (planning playdates, etc.) until somebody at work whispered to me "She used to be a Preus," as if we were talking about the Son of God--and then I started realizing that promotions were flowing thick and fast in that direction, and others were eyeing our friendship as if I were trying to curry favor! It must be a terrible handicap for a talented young Preus, or Walther, or whoever, to have all their sucesses put down to nepotism--and sometimes to have that really be the case, and never to know the difference. Some of my colleagues spent all their time discussing other people's genealogies. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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WearyPilgrim
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# 14593
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Alethiophile is correct --- the custom of "handing down" a pastorate to one's descendants is fairly common in American Pentecostal and charismatic churches. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's the rule, but I have known of many churches in which it has been the case. A family to which I am close had, for nearly a hundred years, a kind of dynastic relationship with the church it founded. The founding pastor's children all got ordained, and the family oversaw the church for generations.
This is a phenomenon quite common in African-American Baptist churches as well: again, not the rule, but not unknown either. In both instances, while in theory the local church is congregationally governed (sometimes through an eldership or similar board), the pastor is the "mover and shaker" in a major way, and symbolically represents the church's ethos in a way not dissimilar from that of the sovereign in a monarchy. (That assertion is really not a stretch --- there is decidedly a "Touch not God's anointed" mentality at play, unless some serious ethical or moral breach takes place.)
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Lyda*Rose
 Ship's broken porthole
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Did Westboro pop into anyone else's mind?
Of course, there seemed to have been quite a leadership shake-up even before the old man went to his reward,
-------------------- "Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Not UK, but you also have the Jensen Clan in Sydney...
-------------------- Siegfried Life is just a bowl of cherries!
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by TheAlethiophile: 'Staying in the family' seems to be more common among the charismatic churches. Not only do we have instance of Terry & Joel Virgo linked to above, but Colin Urquhart's Kingdom Faith church is now led by his son Clive. Also, Roger & Faith Forster, who founded Ichthus, though still in oversight of all the churches in that network, have left the leadership of their home congregation to their daughter, Debbie.
I would hesitate to go to calling it nepotism, though. I think more understanding would be needed as to how the children of these ministers came to be in ministry themselves. More often than not, it's a case of them seeing what their parents do (as any child does) and choosing to follow in their footsteps.
When it comes to their particular appointments, though the circumstances may well warrant a susoicion of nepotism, I would rather be gracious and consider all parties innocent until proven guilty.
After all, shouldn't we know them by their fruit?
That's very balanced of you and I generally go along with it.
The liturgical wing of the church is generally exempt from such things. There are worrying concerns, IMHO, if some of the US model , flows across the Atlantic. But this seems to be restricted to Pentecostal, Independent and Charismatic groups mainly , both here and in the USA.
Of course the problem comes when we regard a church as a sort of quasi family business. The old chestnuts of:
money,
sex,
power,
all raise their heads and of course if their ''fruits'' are less than sweet there will be scandal and profiteering. Also with very strong family run churches there is a sense if one isn't a ''Smith'' or a ''Jones'' then one hasn't quite arrived. Especially if ''the annointing'' is especially present with a Smith or a Jones or a whoever.
I think checks, balances and discernment must come into play here otherwise real harm may be done - after all the Italian Mafia model is not very wholesome (and I'm not talking about the Roman curia here )
Saul the Apostle ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
-------------------- "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Saul the Apostle: Also with very strong family run churches there is a sense if one isn't a ''Smith'' or a ''Jones'' then one hasn't quite arrived. Especially if ''the annointing'' is especially present with a Smith or a Jones or a whoever.
It also happens that one can be the wrong 'Smith' or 'Jones'. e.g By most accounts Billy Graham's Daughter (Anne Graham Lotz) is seen as much more gifted in the relevant regard than his son Franklin.
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John D. Ward
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# 1378
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I Timothy 5:8
“But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”
Paul regards it as a Christian duty to support one's own family.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Given that sport is, for some people, their "religion": what about having Darren Ferguson to manage Manchester United?
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Yes, nepotism is alive and well in independent and congregationalist churches. It always has been. It likely always will be. One of the reasons I'm not a fan of that polity. Then again, I'm also suspicious of bishops coming from the same family.
-------------------- Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible. -Og: King of Bashan
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Og, King of Bashan
 Ship's giant Amorite
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quote: Originally posted by Beeswax Altar: Then again, I'm also suspicious of bishops coming from the same family.
Mississippi is on its' third Bishop Duncan Gray- the current bishop's father and grandfather both held the post. I'm not qualified to say if there was a more qualified candidate, but presumably he had to have done something more than have the same name as the guy who helped escort the first black student at Ole Miss through a Klan-filled mob to the registrar's office.
-------------------- "I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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quote: Originally posted by Beeswax Altar: Yes, nepotism is alive and well in independent and congregationalist churches. It always has been. It likely always will be. One of the reasons I'm not a fan of that polity. Then again, I'm also suspicious of bishops coming from the same family.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the New Testament tells us almost nothing about the Apostles' children.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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When becoming a member of the clergy in the CoE was more of a steady job for upper-middle to upper class men rather than a vocation, sons following their fathers into the clergy was common, as was clergy's daughters marrying their fathers' curates (eg Charlotte Bronte). It certainly kept the priesthood within particular class barriers.
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
I suppose that the difficulty with independent churches e.g. the charismatic/Pentecostal ones is that they can become nice little earners for the ''annointed ones''.
Of course to be fair many churches in this tradition are run well, but the sad thing is, that the Lord's people are being ''taken in'' by some of the more unscrupulous ones and where money is concerned they fleece people out of hundreds of thousands in some cases.
I know of many examples in the USA but less examples in the UK. I am sure there are but I know of only one or two cases.
Unless Shipmates can enlighten me?
Saul
-------------------- "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Saul the Apostle: I suppose that the difficulty with independent churches e.g. the charismatic/Pentecostal ones is that they can become nice little earners for the ''annointed ones''.
Of course to be fair many churches in this tradition are run well, but the sad thing is, that the Lord's people are being ''taken in'' by some of the more unscrupulous ones and where money is concerned they fleece people out of hundreds of thousands in some cases.
I know of many examples in the USA but less examples in the UK. I am sure there are but I know of only one or two cases.
Unless Shipmates can enlighten me?
Saul
In my (admittedly limited) experience, the "going rate" for an independent church leader is about £22-24k per year, a little under the national median income, going down to about £15-17k if the church provides them with a manse. For the higher paid ministers, look to the prosperity gospel preachers. I was looking at the accounts for a Redeemed Christian Church of God congregation the other day and under the charity SORP they have to disclose the number of staff paid in excess of £60k. This particular church had 2 which met that criterion.
-------------------- I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it. Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Isn't the litmus test: "was anyone else considered and/or interviewed for the job"?
I am no fan of family appointments - either direct descendants or through extended family "ministries". It all gives the impression of a cosy little club and baptists are as guilty of it as anyone.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
One argument against clergy dynasties is that they take the clergy further and further away from the lives and experiences of the ordinary people whom they claim to serve. Put brutally, this means that priest and people are likely to become less and less able to understand each other.
Apparently, this (along with clergy specialisation) became an increasing problem among the Victorian and Edwardian Nonconformists. It seems to have hurt them more than the CofE, probably because the CofE could rely on its status and a culture of deference to keep people attached, whereas Nonconformist churches were meant to be intentional communities of like-minded people. If chapelgoers couldn't identify with the culture, attitudes and ideas of their preachers any more, what was the point of being a Nonconformist?
What this implies, though, is that having a son follow a father into the ministry of the same church is no guarantee that you're going to get the same theology or the same anything else from one generation to another: Joel Osteen's theology is said to be very different from his father's.
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Moo
 Ship's tough old bird
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quote: Originally posted by John D. Ward: Paul regards it as a Christian duty to support one's own family.
But he doesn't say you should do it by giving them jobs in the church.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I am reminded of a cartoon in Private Eye, c1985, with someone standing before three thrones labelled 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit'. The caption underneath read 'Nepotism is an ugly word, young man'.
I have met a number of clergy brats who have subsequently taken Holy Orders themselves (in various denominations) and who all seem like quite a good thing. As long as they have had the chance to consider accountancy, working in a shop, pole dancing or whatever and have decided that, actually, that is where their gifts lie and that is what they think God is calling them to do, then they are no different to the rest of us. If they have been obliged to assume the hereditary pastorship of the First Church of Simon Magus and Cesare Borgia because that was the expectation of mum and dad then I would advise fleeing for the hills but I think such instances are vanishingly rare, even in informal denominations.
-------------------- How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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quote: Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: Given that sport is, for some people, their "religion": what about having Darren Ferguson to manage Manchester United?
I wouldn't think that to be likely, but I could well see Paolo Maldini take over as coach for Italy or AC Milan, positions previously held by his father Cesare Maldini.
-------------------- "I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable." Walt Whitman Formerly JFH
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Leorning Cniht
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quote: Originally posted by ExclamationMark: Isn't the litmus test: "was anyone else considered and/or interviewed for the job"?
You mean the kind of interview where we talk to three well-qualified candidates, but hire the curate's spouse anyway?
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
This site called ''Cultwatch'' puts nepotism in some sort of overall context.
Church abuse rarely happens on one level; rather nepotism is one of many aspects of a church that is in it for nefarious purposes.
Normally you see a catalogue of abuse. This site is interesting, as it lists nepotism as one of the many church abuse ''ingredients''....
http://www.cultwatch.com/howpastorsgetrich.html
Saul the Apostle
-------------------- "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Independant Churches in the UK? Well yes, i can think of a fair few who have the leadership passing down from parent to adult child. In all of those cases the adult child has been through a solid training, theological + ongoing on the job training as well.
Being in a city, it's been facinating to see so many independant pastors taking very seriously indeed their ongoing ministerial education.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
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Posted
We personally aren't doing this, of course, since my son doesn't appear to have pastoral gifts, but it seems to me that one less-than-despicable reason for wanting to hand on a ministry or church community to a family member is the fear that someone else won't be adequately invested in it--won't care enough--won't watch over the concern (whatever it may be) as well as someone brought up in a life centered around that concern. I can see how this might be a driving motivation for handing a specialized ministry off to an adult child who has already had a lifetime of emotional investment in it. It doesn't work so well, of course, for non-specialized ministries where there are likely to be loads of outside candidates with equally great knowledge and gifts.
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
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quote: Originally posted by Ethne Alba: Independant Churches in the UK? Well yes, i can think of a fair few who have the leadership passing down from parent to adult child. In all of those cases the adult child has been through a solid training, theological + ongoing on the job training as well.
Being in a city, it's been facinating to see so many independant pastors taking very seriously indeed their ongoing ministerial education.
Yes, it is fascinating. And I imagine that the sons these days are often better educated than the fathers when it comes to theological training.
In the future, I estimate that more rather than fewer clergy will come from clergy families. This is because the strong lay Christian family is likely to decline, so fewer children from outside clergy families will receive a consistent Christian influence at home. (Of course, not all clergy families are Christian, nor are they all stable. It's relative.)
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Penny S
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# 14768
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A thought arises on reading this.
An argument for the origin of the rule of celibacy was that priests were tending to establish dynasties, particularly in cultures where it had been the norm for a well off man to be the local priest of whichever the local deity was, have the temple on his land, and pass the ritual rules on to his son. On conversion, it appears that some thought this could carry on - see the sites where the church is almost attached to the local big house, rather than where most of the people live. In some places (eg Notgrove in Gloucestershire), access is through the private road of the big house, by grace and favour. This was considered by the early medieval Church to be A Bad Thing, as it alienated church property into private hands, hence celibacy. So it has been a long established problem, though not necessarily for the reasons in that CultWatch piece.
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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quote: Originally posted by Penny S: A thought arises on reading this.
An argument for the origin of the rule of celibacy was that priests were tending to establish dynasties, particularly in cultures where it had been the norm for a well off man to be the local priest of whichever the local deity was, have the temple on his land, and pass the ritual rules on to his son. On conversion, it appears that some thought this could carry on - see the sites where the church is almost attached to the local big house, rather than where most of the people live. In some places (eg Notgrove in Gloucestershire), access is through the private road of the big house, by grace and favour. This was considered by the early medieval Church to be A Bad Thing, as it alienated church property into private hands, hence celibacy. So it has been a long established problem, though not necessarily for the reasons in that CultWatch piece.
A very long established problem indeed. Even teh term "nepotism" has an ecclesiastical origin, deriving from the Latin nepos, meaning "nephew" and was originally applied to prominent members of the clergy securing similar positions for their "nephews" (who were, more often than not, really their illegitimate sons). The Borgias were a particularly vibrant example of this.
-------------------- Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan: quote: Originally posted by Beeswax Altar: Then again, I'm also suspicious of bishops coming from the same family.
Mississippi is on its' third Bishop Duncan Gray- the current bishop's father and grandfather both held the post...
But isn't pretty much everybody in Mississippi rather closely related to everybody else? (Dives for cover) [ 29. April 2014, 21:31: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
 Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
(Please note that I am deliberately choosing to omit the names in what follows. I don't want this to be about specific people, but about a system that is less than just)
A Church of England Bishop had two sons. Both were ordained. Both found themselves in 'plum' curacy posts. It seems clear that the good bishop had smoothed the way for his lads. They may both be very talented, but it seems unlikely that they were both the cream of the crop.
Is this fair or right? I don't think so. But it is all a part of the long-standing C of E culture whereby who you know (or are related to, or if you went to the same school) gives you an undeniable 'edge' when it comes to preferment.
-------------------- Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
And while understanding both previous posts...what to do if an offspring feels led to follow the same path as a parent?
Teachers? Plumbers? Doctors? Builders? Clergy? Mechanics? Law?
We can all think of family members who naturally follow their parents into a profession.
And surely the church is no different?
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: I was horrified to see that our deanery is plugging an event led by Nathan Foster, son of Richard Foster.
Why?
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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