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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is nepotism alive and well in the church?
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
And while understanding both previous posts...what to do if an offspring feels led to follow the same path as a parent?
Teachers? Plumbers? Doctors? Builders? Clergy? Mechanics? Law?
We can all think of family members who naturally follow their parents into a profession.
And surely the church is no different?
I don't think that is the same as a particular family monopolising key roles within the church, or any other industry.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
And while understanding both previous posts...what to do if an offspring feels led to follow the same path as a parent?
Teachers? Plumbers? Doctors? Builders? Clergy? Mechanics? Law?
We can all think of family members who naturally follow their parents into a profession.
And surely the church is no different?
I don't think that is the same as a particular family monopolising key roles within the church, or any other industry.
No one ever said of their surgeon, "Well, his father had an excellent reputation..."
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
And while understanding both previous posts...what to do if an offspring feels led to follow the same path as a parent?
Teachers? Plumbers? Doctors? Builders? Clergy? Mechanics? Law?
We can all think of family members who naturally follow their parents into a profession.
And surely the church is no different?
I don't think that is the same as a particular family monopolising key roles within the church, or any other industry.
No one ever said of their surgeon, "Well, his father had an excellent reputation..."
It happens in accountancy, I can assure you. I've known a few who were the sons or daughters of those who were partners in the big firms. It was expected that, in time, they would also be partners.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
I find the Joel Virgo post interesting.
http://www.cck.org.uk/people/joel-virgo
He is either truly called to that role or he is following in Daddy's footsteps because, well, he is the son of the great man himself.
Either way, taking this route must be embarked upon very carefully, there are many many pitfalls.
I am not surprised we see quite blatant nepotism in the USA. I suppose if I do see it here in the UK I am a little more surprised. After all we seem less attracted to the cult of personality don't we?
In non conformity, which widens it out from just Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, it was common to have schisms and rifts. Often these would be regular , acrimonious and family splits.
I can't help think that some of the schism in non conformity come from good old fashioned greed. After all, if a church, say today, has an income of about £1 million per annum, there are some nice little earners to be had aren't there?
Of course the opportunity to make a ''nice little earner'' is far less in the UK as church attendance is probably about 40% less here in the UK than the USA.
Nevertheless it is clear nepotism can be very harmful indeed.
More examples?
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
Hillsong Church, which is Australian but a large player in the UK and South Africa as well, has a family legacy as well.
Frank Houston - founded Sydney Christian Life Centre. Confessed to sexual abuse of children and was deposed and replaced with his son Joel.
Joel Houston - turned SCLC into what is now Hillsong Church, which he runs with his wife Bobbie. As for his children:
Brian Houston - chosen to lead the mission team to set up Hillsong NYC where he is co-head pastor
Ben Houston - chosen to lead the mission team to set up Hillsong Los Angeles
Laura Houston - runs Hillsong's youth ministry in Australia with her husband
This strikes me very much as a family business attitude towards the organization - especially giving the plum church planting jobs in New York and LA - highly desirable places to live for most 20-30 somethings - to their kids.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Kittyville
Shipmate
# 16106
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Posted
I don't know if he's been given the job you attribute to Brian Houston, but Joel is the son. It's Brian that's the father.
Posts: 291 | From: Sydney | Registered: Dec 2010
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kittyville:
I don't know if he's been given the job you attribute to Brian Houston, but Joel is the son. It's Brian that's the father.
My bad - mistype! Yes Bobbie and Brian are the couple in charge, Joel is in NYC.
BTW for anyone who cares about silly celebrity gossip, after his recent arrest pop singer Justin Bieber went to Hillsong NYC asking to be baptized. They declined.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
[Talking Church of England here]
Of all of the curates or vicars who have clerical parents that i know, Not One has ever been introduced to me as "Such and Such's son or daughter".
In fact, i would guess that any clergy offspring is grilled ruthlessly at selection and the bishops advisory panal.
Plus, the offspring is hardly going to be placed in the same church as the parent. So what's all this about nepotism?
Holy Orders are open to all who are suitable and anyone can encourage their young people to consider this. Maybe Vicars just naturally have this option for their Parental Career Advice Chat with their own/ other youngsters.
Do the rest of us?
Could we?
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I am happy to be proven wrong, but I don't think nepotism plays a role in the current CoE. However, it did play a role in its history, which contributed to the drop in church attendance in the 1800s and the view of clergy as seeing themselves as 'above' the ordinary folk in their flock. It still has an impact on the CoE.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
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Originally posted by leo:
I was horrified to see that our deanery is plugging an event led by Nathan Foster, son of Richard Foster.
Why?
See the OP.
He is advertised solely on the grounds that he is the son of his father rather than upon any merits of his own.
Sure, but on the flip side, purely the fact that his father was a minister shouldn't rule him out of being a minister right?
Plus you didn't mention to start with that he was "advertised solely on the grounds that he is the son of his father" without seeing the advert in question I can't comment on the substance of it.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I've read that after WWI the no. of young men following their fathers into the CofE ministry was dropping. The reason given is that they were increasingly opting for better paid alternatives. I'm wondering if that's still the case today, or whether difficult employment conditions for young graduates have made a career in the CofE ministry more attractive again, and hence more attractive to clergy children.
(Yes, I understand the value of the ministry as a vocation, but I think it's only realistic to assume that financial considerations come into play, especially if the young people concerned are highly educated and presumably highly employable - as clergy children often are.)
[ 03. May 2014, 14:42: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've read that after WWI the no. of young men following their fathers into the CofE ministry was dropping. The reason given is that they were increasingly opting for better paid alternatives. I'm wondering if that's still the case today, or whether difficult employment conditions for young graduates have made a career in the CofE ministry more attractive again, and hence more attractive to clergy children.
(Yes, I understand the value of the ministry as a vocation, but I think it's only realistic to assume that financial considerations come into play, especially if the young people concerned are highly educated and presumably highly employable - as clergy children often are.)
CoE ministry is very poorly paid, and increasingly, unpaid.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I'm sure it is. All the more reason for bright young things with top qualifications to think carefully before they decide to commit themselves....
(But maybe I've been too influenced by accounts of clever but poverty-stricken clergy with resentful wives and grumpy children!)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
1. I've read that after WWI the no. of young men following their fathers into the CofE ministry was dropping. The reason given is that they were increasingly opting for better paid alternatives.
2. I'm wondering if that's still the case today, or whether difficult employment conditions for young graduates have made a career in the CofE ministry more attractive again, and hence more attractive to clergy children.
1. A large % of clergy in the pre WWI era were the third sons of rich families. Their cash got them through the process not their talent. It was less true after WWI as there was a more open process - although some denominations still have a fair quota of upper class twits.
2. IMHO 9and perhaps IME) if a clergy son or daughter ants to follow on, they have it much easier and rise quicker than the rest of us. It might be talent but then again it might be contacts
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
What I meant to post above is that "Gavin Calver seems to do a good job heading up YFC" - just because someone is the son or daughter of a church/parachurch ministry leader doesn't disqualify them from being a good leader. Having said that it seems worrying if churches or ministries are treated like family businesses because they are not and shouldn't be...
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Green Mario, welcome to the Ship! If you haven't already done so, please take a moment to check out our Ten Commandments, FAQs, and posting Guidelines for the boards. We also invite you to say hi on the Welcome Aboard 2014 thread in All Saints.
Enjoy the voyage!
Eutychus
Purgatory Host
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
What I meant to post above is that "Gavin Calver seems to do a good job heading up YFC" - just because someone is the son or daughter of a church/parachurch ministry leader doesn't disqualify them from being a good leader. Having said that it seems worrying if churches or ministries are treated like family businesses because they are not and shouldn't be...
This is so. For example, I know nothing of Joel Virgo, here in the UK. He may be an excellent leader and may have all the attributes of a very good leader. As I know nothing of that Ministry i can also say that his father was and is a well known Christian leader.
The main dangers, IMHO, lie in the charismatic/pentecostal/ non-liturgical church areas simply because they , in many cases, have little or no accountability to their punters.
I accept the C of E did have a degree of upper class nepotism pre World war 1. This has effectively vanished now and paid Ministry in C of E is a very average (or under average) salary and attracts little celebrity societal status.
Conversely, a ''successful'' charismatic outfit blisfully ignores, very often, Annual General Meetings, passes on their leadership from father to offspring, pays inflated salaries and totally chooses virtually all it's directions and decisions. Much like a private company - BUT - it is not a private company, it's supposed to be a servant led church following in the footsteps of Jesus of Nazareth.
Even here in the UK I suggest that incredibly unethical decisions are being taken by independent church outfits. We have generally faced up to sexual abuse in the church, but have we really tackled incestuous family benefice and nepotism?
I don't think we have - it is a far wider and deeper thing than many of us may realise.
Saul
[ 04. May 2014, 07:30: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Regarding nepotism, I suspect that it's more likely to happen in churches that are able to hold on to their young people, and such churches are usually evangelical, and are frequently independent charismatic/Pentecostal churches. These days CofE vicars are probably more likely to see their children leave the church, so the issue wouldn't arise so often in their context.
[ 04. May 2014, 12:49: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
I think mainstream denominations have the checks and balances so son/daughter has to apply on their own merit/testimony of vocation. But we do have problems of the committee keen and those who end up in the central powers being a closed shop that only open the doors to those like them. Not nepotism but a serious issue if unable to challenge.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
1. I think mainstream denominations have the checks and balances so son/daughter has to apply on their own merit/testimony of vocation.
2. But we do have problems of the committee keen and those who end up in the central powers being a closed shop that only open the doors to those like them. Not nepotism but a serious issue if unable to challenge.
1. Yes that's the theory but it's surprising how many "known" candidates have sponsors on the interviewing team who put in an extra word for them.
It happened on my first set of interviews when I didn't get the nod. {I think I remember the reason as being that I hadn't engaged with the Totonto Blessing and wasn't sensitive to the Spirit" Well, it was 1996, after all].
One guy (who did) was being interviewed by a close friend (possibly even his own minister) who was also giving him a bit of coaching in the corridor when I passed them. They looked a bit sheepish when they saw me.
Now on the other side of the fence, it's not unknown for someone to pick up the phone pre interview just for a chat, you understand.
2. Yep I agree - it's a big problem which stifles change and involvement
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
Nepotism is implicit in the very fabric of Christianity.
Look at that Jesus guy getting the big gig….just ‘cause of who his dad is!!!
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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