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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Orthodox Shit-Storm
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Many shipmates may not be aware that there is currently a shitstorm brewing in American Orthodoxy. A rising star in the white nationalist movement, Matthew Heimbach, was accepted into the Orthodox Church on Lazarus Saturday (day before Palm Sunday) this year. He subsequently posted, on his "Trad Youth" website, a picture of himself beating up a man at a SlutWalk. Beating a man with an Orthodox tri-bar cross, no less. The image is pretty horrific from the POV of any Christian, I would think.
The priest that accepted Heimbach into Orthodoxy is the son of a very famous (in American Orthodoxy) priest who was part of the very large Campus Crusade for Christ group that was accepted into Orthodoxy in the late 80s. Wrote a book about finding his long-time church home, etc. Junior has said on the church's website that this is a pastoral issue and (albeit not in so many words) everybody just needs to butt out. Needless to say, people aren't butting out. Nor should they, IMO.
Some claim that the priest knew about Heimbach's white supremacist dealings. It has since come to light that many white supremacists see the Orthodox Church as a natural ally, no doubt in part because of the notorious antisemitism of many of the old world bishops, particularly in Russia, Serbia, and so forth.
I am sick to the heart about the whole thing. We have been in need of some serious housecleaning on this issue for centuries -- maybe we'll see some getting done here. But I'm not holding my breath.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Mousethief, you may be interested in this article - slash - photo essay which is about the use of Orthodox symbolism by pro-Russian people in Eastern Ukraine. It touches on similar themes, I think.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
The article you link also makes the point that it's hard for Orthodoxy to stand against this kind of separatist ideology while in the US there is a church for the Greeks, one for the Russians, one for the Romanians, one for the Serbs and so on, each with its own independent hierarchy.
It's hard to argue with that, really.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
Yes. There shouldn't be multiple ethnic jurisdictions in one area. There was a council in Constantinople in 1872 that dealt with that issue pretty definitively. Ethnic and racial divisions in the Church are in fact defined as heretical.
So why do we have them? It's a side effect of the Russian Revolution. All the Orthodox in the New World were under the Russian church. Didn't matter if you were Russian, Greek, Polish, Japanese, Arabic. There was only one jurisdiction, and that was it.
But then there was the Russian Revolution, and the government that overthrew the Tsar required the Church to require all of their clergy -- even the clergy overseas, even clergy who were Arabic or Polish or Japanese -- to swear allegiance to the Bolsheviks. And a priest from Greece who was a citizen of the United States (or even worse, a resident alien) just couldn't do that. So he talked with a bishop back in Greece, and got himself transferred under that Greek bishop. And so on, for many priests from many countries.
So we ended up with this "temporary" jurisdictional mess, to deal with an unprecedented situation. But everyone, at least in theory, understands that we're bordering on phyletism. (It's not quite phyletism, because a Russian can go to a Greek church, and a Greek can go to an Arabic church, and so on.) Even so, everyone understands that it's a problem, a serious problem, and it needs to be fixed.
Or at least they say they do. But the situation that created this mess is long gone. So why haven't we fixed it? There are established bureaucracies, and habits, that are going to be hard to change.
But maybe these racists claiming the Orthodox mantle for their bigotry will spur our hierarchs to do the hard work and make the changes. Maybe.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
The article you link also makes the point that it's hard for Orthodoxy to stand against this kind of separatist ideology while in the US there is a church for the Greeks, one for the Russians, one for the Romanians, one for the Serbs and so on, each with its own independent hierarchy.
It's hard to argue with that, really.
Sad but true.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
From my perspective as a largely sympathetic outsider looking in at Orthodoxy, this looks to me like an 'accident' that has been waiting to happen - and it's incidents like this that fuel and give credence to the kind of separatism and Anabaptism espoused by Steve Langton on these boards.
And he has a point.
Add to the melange a kind of triumphalist approach in some quarters and the tendency of some converts to Orthodoxy to latch onto those aspects that they feel 'resolve' issues that they weren't happy with in their previous affiliation - and you've got a pretty toxic mix.
For instance, as the Eastern and Western Pascha/Easter coincided this year I attended both Anglican and Orthodox vigils. I cheerily observed to an Orthodox friend that I was 'having two Easters' this year and was sourly told that there was only one ...
I also had my head bitten off by a burly Romanian van driver. 'Anglican is not True Church. Protestant is not True Church. Papa is not True Church. Ort'odox is True Church ...'
Sure, I can understand the sentiments and claims. But did they really NEED to be so arsey about it?
Other than that, I had a great time ...
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
I've got a lot of time for the Orthodox and would readily accept that a lot of the problems stem from 'issues' and baggage that converts are bringing in with them - but that isn't to exonerate the Orthodox at all. The jurisdictional mess applies here as well as in the US and I can't for the life of me understand how it is beyond the wit of man to resolve it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'd also add that I think it's a shame that there isn't more of a shit-storm about this. I've seen some Orthodox blogs and comments railing against this guy and the attitude of his particular jurisdiction - but not many.
I've seen far, far, far more Orthodox memes and blartings on about how wonderful Putin is, how bad Obama is, how bad the West is, how bad this, that and the other is and how wonderful Patriarch Kyrill is despite his disappearing Rolex yadda yadda yadda ...
I've come to the conclusion that Mousethief didn't write the Onion Dome satires. He simply went on line and cut and pasted what he found ...
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I don't see anything in the general run of Orthodox theology which would give aid and comfort to supremacists. Gamaliel's taxi ride conversation did, however, remind me of this outrageous send up of patriotic prejudice by the inimitable Flanders and Swan.
Proclamations of religious superiority (I've found the true religion, the rest are at best poor imitations) do seem to give aid and comfort to people suffering from various forms of insecurities or feared inferiorities. I've certainly found folks like that in evangelicalism.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" (Samuel Johnson's famous and often misunderstood quotation) points to the dangers of a kind of false loyalty. A love of country and a love of religion can certainly get in the way of any serious attempt to love "enemies", those who are "different" to "us", those who "we" regard as "our" "natural inferiors".
I suspect that we've all got wolves masquerading as sheep. Perhaps, if we are honest, we can identify the bit of wolf in all of us, recognise the dangers?
The only acceptable option is to teach by both precept and example that lording it over others "must not be so among you". Clearly and often. The proud get scattered; particularly those who are proud of the perceived superiority of their religion. The humble get lifted up, simply by seeing themselves as they really are, not being blinded by ideas of "we're best".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
Excuse my ignorance, but I seem to remember a conversation on the ship once with either you or Josephine about how people become members of the Orthodox Church.
Does the priest or congregation or bishop or someone have any power to exclude this person? Or what type of "dealing with" could be done?
I hope this does not come across aggressively, I just have no idea how such discipline would work in the Orthodox tradition.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
'Taxi ride'? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I spoke to a Romanian van driver at the feast after the Easter Vigil, so taxis didn't come into it ...
Perhaps I'm being too literal and pedantic.
I won't attempt to answer Leprechaun's question to Mousethief and Josephine but I will put forward a general observation ...
This is very generalised, but from what I've heard some jurisdictions - perhaps most notably the Antiochians - have attempted to be more immediately open and welcoming to potential converts from other forms of Christianity.
Back in the day, the standard Greek response, I've heard, was 'Go away and learn more Greek' or, 'Go to the English Church' (ie. the Anglicans).
The Russians were rather more accommodating but still get people to jump through hoops. I also understand that the Russians are more likely than some Orthodox jurisdictions to re-baptise people who have already been baptised in one or t'other of the Western churches.
I've heard that they do this, 'just to be on the safe side.'
The Antiochians, on the other hand, don't re-baptise people who have already been baptised and also tend to be less rigorous, shall we say, in who they accept.
I don't know whether this is the case, but it's what I've heard.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
The article you link also makes the point that it's hard for Orthodoxy to stand against this kind of separatist ideology while in the US there is a church for the Greeks, one for the Russians, one for the Romanians, one for the Serbs and so on, each with its own independent hierarchy. It's hard to argue with that, really.
Sad but true.
In some sense, the current messiness in the USA stands against the identification of "national Church" with "nationalism" there. Imagine that there is just one US Orthodox Church. Then this actually makes it easy to identify one's nationalistic feelings for one's home country with one's feelings for one's Church. So just like some Greeks may now see the Greek Orthodox Church primarily as the Greek Orthodox Church, rather than the Greek Orthodox Church, a future unified US Orthodox Church could be misunderstood as US Orthodox Church rather than US Orthodox Church.
I guess as far as Neo-Nazis in the USA go, there is second level to this. A Neo-Nazi presumably does not approve of the racial and cultural mixture that characterises the USA for the most part. So for them, sticking to the racial and cultural background may in fact be something they like. That is to say, a Neo-Nazi may actually appreciate the Serbian Orthodox Church as a separate identity in the USA, because they would like Serbians to keep a separate identity in the USA anyhow. I actually do not know how Neo-Nazis in the USA deal with the "one nation from many different backgrounds" problem unique to countries with a massive immigration history. Do they focus more on nationalistic dreams about one nation, or more on keeping the different people separate? Or somehow on both?
Anyhow, I think it is a bit of a doomed if you do and doomed if you don't situation for the Orthodox Church in the USA. As long as the national structures are clearly dominant there will be ways of attaching unsavoury nationalism to them.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
'Taxi ride'?
Sorry for the confusion, a 'senior moment' in play.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Excuse my ignorance, but I seem to remember a conversation on the ship once with either you or Josephine about how people become members of the Orthodox Church.
Does the priest or congregation or bishop or someone have any power to exclude this person? Or what type of "dealing with" could be done?
Your question doesn't seem at all aggressive, Leprechaun. It's a fair question. Depending on what jurisdiction you're in, either the local priest, or the bishop, has to decide to let you into the Church. No one has any "right" to receive any sacrament, including baptism and chrismation, which are the sacraments through which one is received into the Church.
And usually there is a period of instruction before you're received.
In Orthodox circles, there is a great deal of discussion about how, exactly, these guys got in. At first, folks were saying that they pulled the wool over the priest's eyes, and didn't disclose their more unsavory beliefs. (And they're not just garden-variety Russophile monarhists, which we have in abundance. One of them is a member of the KKK and active on Stormfront (see Wikipedia if you don't know what Stormfront is; the Ship didn't like the link. Not that I blame it, of course.)
But then we have a statement from one of them saying that they told the priest of their beliefs. And in the priest's public statements, he hasn't said that he didn't know what they believed, he has said he didn't understand. And in his public statements, he's talking like it's just one racist white separatist he's brought in, when there are three, perhaps four of them.
Which is leading some people to wonder whether the priest is stupid, or whether he's a sympathizer.
The problem, of course, is that once they're in, they're in. They're baptized. They're fellow members of the Orthodox Church. Theologically, we can't say, "They're not really ours," as Baptists can with Fred Phelps. These racists are now ours.
At least one of them is now excommunicate. But if you trawl the underbelly of the Internet, and read discussions on racist websites (which, as a courtesy, I won't link to from here because they may not even be legal to go to for some of our Shipmates), there is a lot of talk about how the Orthodox Church is the natural home for white separatists and fascists and their friends. Which is deeply, deeply disturbing.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I guess as far as Neo-Nazis in the USA go, there is second level to this. A Neo-Nazi presumably does not approve of the racial and cultural mixture that characterises the USA for the most part. So for them, sticking to the racial and cultural background may in fact be something they like. That is to say, a Neo-Nazi may actually appreciate the Serbian Orthodox Church as a separate identity in the USA, because they would like Serbians to keep a separate identity in the USA anyhow.
You nailed it, IngoB. If you trawl neo-Nazi and white identity websites (which I wouldn't recommend, but when some of those folks join your church, you sort of have to see what they're saying when they've let their guard down), they say exactly that.
Those that are aware of the condemnation of phyletism explain it away as the product of an irrelevant local council that was probably misguided and certainly doesn't apply.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Yes. There shouldn't be multiple ethnic jurisdictions in one area. There was a council in Constantinople in 1872 that dealt with that issue pretty definitively.
It seems Paul had already dealt with that in Galatians, especially 3:28.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I would observe that images like this, the pro-Putin rhetoric and even scenes like this, could encourage such people. Though I recognise these do not comprise what Orthodoxy is.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
I don't see anything in the general run of Orthodox theology which would give aid and comfort to supremacists.
The fascist elements in Orthodox culture have generally been obscured by the Bolshevik revolution which, whatever its flaws, rather nixed the possibility of an indigenous Russian fascism for much of the 20th century and by Hitler's pathological loathing of the Slavs whom he regarded as being hewers of wood and drawers of water for the Greater German Reich. But as the link in the OP reminds us there has never been an Orthodox Nostra Aetate, the Romanian Iron Guard were so anti-semitic that the Nazis were reduced to spluttering "steady on, old chap, you can overdo these things you know", the Serbs in the 1990s were rather big on the whole fascist groove thang, and it's probably indicative that the sort of people who one might have expected to admire Franco and Pinochet, back in the day, are now making warm noises about Vladimir Putin (yes, Nigel and Alex, I am looking at you!). Traditionally, US White Supremacism has looked towards protestant fundamentalism - indeed, anti-Catholicism was a major part of white nationalist politics once upon a time - but it's not difficult to see that if one can embrace the spirit of ecumenism then yer average white nationalist is going to find plenty of kindred spirits further up the candle.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
How domineering over his clergy is the average Orthodox bishop? Could a compromise be worked out in North America, Western Europe, and Australasia where there is only one bishop for each diocese, parishes keep much of the money they collect and only send a small amount for diocesan administration, Orthodox charities unite at the domestic level but parishes are free to send as much money as they want to churches and charities in their ethnic homelands, etc., and each parish gets to keep praying the Liturgy the way they are now, just with the insertion of the new one diocesan bishop in the proper place in the prayers? Other than money and fear of losing cultural autonomy, what are the main barriers to common jurisdictions?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Vested interests, I suspect, fear of losing power and control?
That's my diagnosis.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
How domineering over his clergy is the average Orthodox bishop? Could a compromise be worked out in North America, Western Europe, and Australasia where there is only one bishop for each diocese, parishes keep much of the money they collect and only send a small amount for diocesan administration, Orthodox charities unite at the domestic level but parishes are free to send as much money as they want to churches and charities in their ethnic homelands, etc., and each parish gets to keep praying the Liturgy the way they are now, just with the insertion of the new one diocesan bishop in the proper place in the prayers? Other than money and fear of losing cultural autonomy, what are the main barriers to common jurisdictions?
What on Earth has ecumenism got to do with it?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
How domineering over his clergy is the average Orthodox bishop? Could a compromise be worked out in North America, Western Europe, and Australasia where there is only one bishop for each diocese, parishes keep much of the money they collect and only send a small amount for diocesan administration, Orthodox charities unite at the domestic level but parishes are free to send as much money as they want to churches and charities in their ethnic homelands, etc., and each parish gets to keep praying the Liturgy the way they are now, just with the insertion of the new one diocesan bishop in the proper place in the prayers? Other than money and fear of losing cultural autonomy, what are the main barriers to common jurisdictions?
What on Earth has ecumenism got to do with it?
I wasn't talking about ecumenism - I was talking only about the different Orthodox jurisdictions in places like the United States.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
A bit off topic. But seeing the negative examples
of some Orthodox reminded me of a recent positive example of an Orthodox monastery I would like to share. (With a bit of ecumenism thrown in.)
Non Fascist Orthodox.
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
So why haven't we fixed it? There are established bureaucracies, and habits, that are going to be hard to change.
And possibly identity? Clearly you know a lot more Orthodox folk than I do, but every one that I have met in real life (which basically means parents of kids who have done something with my kids) has identified themselves as "Greek Orthodox" or "Russian Orthodox" rather than just "Orthodox", but there seemed to be a definite element of identifying as not-those-guys.
Do you think that's common, or was I reading more into it than there actually was?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
How domineering over his clergy is the average Orthodox bishop? Could a compromise be worked out in North America, Western Europe, and Australasia where there is only one bishop for each diocese, parishes keep much of the money they collect and only send a small amount for diocesan administration, Orthodox charities unite at the domestic level but parishes are free to send as much money as they want to churches and charities in their ethnic homelands, etc., and each parish gets to keep praying the Liturgy the way they are now, just with the insertion of the new one diocesan bishop in the proper place in the prayers? Other than money and fear of losing cultural autonomy, what are the main barriers to common jurisdictions?
What on Earth has ecumenism got to do with it?
I wasn't talking about ecumenism - I was talking only about the different Orthodox jurisdictions in places like the United States.
Sorry, I replied to the wrong post. It was in reply to Gildas' post.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I was using the word 'ecumenism' facetiously. c.f. Northern Irish headline, circa the 1970s "Catholics and Protestants unite against ecumenism".
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
I was using the word 'ecumenism' facetiously. c.f. Northern Irish headline, circa the 1970s "Catholics and Protestants unite against ecumenism".
That's fabulous.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Like the old jokes about Jewish/Muslim (add other religion as appropriate) visitors or citizens of Belfast being asked:
'Well, are ye a Cat'olic Jew (Muslim/other religion delete as appropriate) or Prodesdant Jew?'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Vested interests, I suspect, fear of losing power and control?
And money. It is an open secret that North American jobs have been viewed as a gravy train for old-country clergy of certain jurisdictions. At one point, if you wanted a (name of jurisdiction supplied) bishop at a wedding or a baptism, it would cost you $4,000-$6,000-- some of them used the money for home-country charities (*tangent* a friend of mine was hit up for $10k for a girls school and, furious that she might have been taken, went to see it and is now a regular and generous contributor) and for others, it was less clear.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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