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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Northern Ireland: Gerry Adams Arrested
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
A Truth and Reconciliation Commission is badly needed with respect to the Northern Ireland Troubles, but given the murkiness of same, it isn't really in the interests of any of the combatants even though it is in the wider interest of the peoples of these islands IMHO.
It's either that, or just wait for everyone involved to die, which seems to be the face-saving exercise in play right now.
The current situation with Gerry Adams, for example, is that everyone "knows" that he was a terrorist, everybody knows that he will deny everything, and everyone more or less ignores all of this in favour of keeping the peace.
It's not the worst possible strategy, but I agree that a truth and reconciliation type affair (full disclosure with amnesties) would be better for everyone (except those who think they can get away with pretending that they have clean hands.)
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
O God, Ronald, something inside me suggests you are right. Forgive me, but I hope you are so wrong (no offence). It's not only Gerry Adams on my shit list who I'd love to see shortlisted for a long stay in Maghaberry, but he's certainly in the top five (and it's not all republicans either). If we cleaned them all up, they could live in their imaginary paranoid separateness in Maghaberry quite well I imagine. Channel Five could even make it into a reality show.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Anglican't:
quote:
For land-owning aristocrats, I'd say those two activities aren't incongruous at all...
I did wonder if he meant to have an 'h' there.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
O God, Ronald, something inside me suggests you are right. Forgive me, but I hope you are so wrong (no offence). It's not only Gerry Adams on my shit list who I'd love to see shortlisted for a long stay in Maghaberry, but he's certainly in the top five (and it's not all republicans either). If we cleaned them all up, they could live in their imaginary paranoid separateness in Maghaberry quite well I imagine. Channel Five could even make it into a reality show.
Indeed. However I think all the "we are the People" gubbins indulged in by Republicans and Loyalists seems to have a life of its own, and in spite of the general desire for a quiet life of co-operation and mutual understanding we will always have the cynical stirring up the wilfully ignorant.
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
As an aside here's a summary of the opinion polls for the Sunday Business Post of the Dublin constituencies for the European Parliament elections:
Dublin: Fine Gael 18% Sinn Fein 15% Fianna Fáil 13% Labour 13% Green 12% Independent (ex Lab) 10%, others 19% (3 seats)
Now given the vagaries of the PR Single Transferable Vote used in Irish elections that can translate into one each for FG (main govt party), one SF and one ex Labour. Maybe. But it is interesting that the Shinners are getting the same percentages as the Kippers in GB, and a similar DE profile. To their target voters, it doesn't really matter if authoritarians are of the right or the left.
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
If those complicit in murders such as the one of Jean McConville are elected to the European Parliament; in what way should the rest of the world take seriously the issue of human rights or accountability for atrocities and other crimes?
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I think IRA (and other) terrorists have already been elected to the European Parliament, so I doubt that's a biggie.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Channel Five could even make it into a reality show.
"Help I'm a Terrorist blow me out of here"?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I'm a terrorist, lock me up here.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
"Many American Catholic academic institutions" raised money for the IRA in the 70s?
Do you have a citation for this?
No, to be honest, but I'm thinking of NORAID fundraisers and having Adams and others over as invited speakers in the 70s and 80s. See for NORAID The Columbia Guide to Irish American History (on google books).
My wife, a Canadian, remembers being invited to some booklaunch/funder event for Adams/Noraid at a Catholic college in the late 80s/early 90s. She was also at college in Boston as a post-grad and the atmosphere was still distinctly pro-Republican "freedom-fighter".
This falls rather short of full substantiation of my claim, I confess, but...
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
This falls rather short of full substantiation of my claim, I confess, but...
I'll say. Perhaps you might consider being a little less free with the accusations of funding terrorists, then.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Actually Dave, he's not far wrong. Noraid was deemed in the States in the early 90's not to be a charity but absolutely certainly a fund raising arm for the IRA. Noraid was was investigated many times in Ireland and it proved notoriously difficult to track cash that was coming across from the US but it was concluded many times that this money was being used to buy guns and bullets.
Noraid always presented itself as a legitimate charity in the US and many times deliberately targeted Catholic institutions throughout the US with ridiculous stories of horrifically oppressed Catholic children who had no food and couldn't avail of education. It was total bullshit, but it helped people put their hand into their pockets. The other aspect that they promoted was their 'support of 'political prisoners'. What this was in reality was the legal costs being covered and a few inconvenient truths being dispatched and disposed of with the help of ever so handy Noraid money. The 'political prisoners' tended to be the same delightful types who proved themselves useful to society by bombing supermarkets, shopping centres, police stations and planting car bombs - they just happened to get caught doing it; but (through the warped lens of Noraid) they were doing it all 'for the sake of the cause', and it was was a war after all.
Meanwhile in the US, all them good Catholic Irish who had never set foot on Irish soil and had as much understanding of the truth of the situation as a gnat would, put their podgy hands into their wallets and purses. They did it up and down the country for years and many an institution gleefully obliged them.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
During the 80s and 90s, I seem to remember quite a lot of anger towards the Noraid funding of the IRA on mainland Britain from what was a supposed allie. When the twin towers were hit, I remember a lack of sympathy from some quarters and remarks to the effect of "Well, now they know how it feels". An indefensible, callous and ridiculously simplistic response, but it gives some idea of people's feelings.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Actually Dave, he's not far wrong.
If you've got examples of "many American Catholic academic institutions" raising money for the IRA, feel free to cite them.
And this:
quote:
Meanwhile in the US, all them good Catholic Irish who had never set foot on Irish soil and had as much understanding of the truth of the situation as a gnat would, put their podgy hands into their wallets and purses.
Can, I think, be mounted alongside your previous odious contribution: quote:
Like an Irish journalist knows how to spell confidentiality, let alone knows what it means.
In other news, it seems Gerry Adams has been released.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Well, this morning's headlines are that Adams has been released. Just as he should be if there is no credible evidence on which he could be found guilty.
After my earlier post, some said in effect that there was a distinction between justice and peace. I don't accept that there is such a distinction. I don't accept that distinction. Let's start from the proposition that a ruler's duty is to protect his domain. External protection from invaders is easy to understand.
Internally, a ruler protects by the maintenance of a clear and impartial system of justice. No-one should be above the law. If there are disputes between individuals, then civil courts adjudicate. If the dispute is between the community as a whole and an individual, the criminal courts step in to enable the community to present its evidence against the accused. (All in basic terms of course, but you can understand where I'm going).
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Well, this morning's headlines are that Adams has been released. Just as he should be if there is no credible evidence on which he could be found guilty.
Adams has been released without charge and a file has been passed to the Public Prosecution Service. The Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland is Gerry Adams' former solicitor, so I suspect this matter isn't going anywhere.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Well, this morning's headlines are that Adams has been released. Just as he should be if there is no credible evidence on which he could be found guilty.
Adams has been released without charge and a file has been passed to the Public Prosecution Service. The Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland is Gerry Adams' former solicitor, so I suspect this matter isn't going anywhere.
It hasn't gone anywhere for 42 years. Why it should do so now is a mystery.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
"Many American Catholic academic institutions" raised money for the IRA in the 70s?
Do you have a citation for this?
No, to be honest, but I'm thinking of NORAID fundraisers and having Adams and others over as invited speakers in the 70s and 80s. See for NORAID The Columbia Guide to Irish American History (on google books).
My wife, a Canadian, remembers being invited to some booklaunch/funder event for Adams/Noraid at a Catholic college in the late 80s/early 90s. She was also at college in Boston as a post-grad and the atmosphere was still distinctly pro-Republican "freedom-fighter".
This falls rather short of full substantiation of my claim, I confess, but...
May I ask, which part of Canada is your wife from?
I attended Catholic churches, schools, and did all my 400 level philosophy classes at a Catholic college in Alberta, and I recall no significant support for NORAID or the IRA. The only people who I ever heard talking up Irish republicanism were maybe two or three Irish expats, and even they were probably just blowing hot air.
Now, this being Edmonton, there WAS significant support for Ukraine against the USSR, endorsed offically and semi-officially, all over the place. No fundraisers for terrorists, but it would have been interesting to see what the reaction would have been if there HAD been some guerilla group waging war against the Russians, sending guest-speakers on the Canadian lecture circuit.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Well, this morning's headlines are that Adams has been released. Just as he should be if there is no credible evidence on which he could be found guilty.
Adams has been released without charge and a file has been passed to the Public Prosecution Service. The Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland is Gerry Adams' former solicitor, so I suspect this matter isn't going anywhere.
It hasn't gone anywhere for 42 years. Why it should do so now is a mystery.
Well this is what puzzles me. Surely they must have known this was going to happen. So why did they decide to pursue it? "For political reasons" as claimed by McGuiness makes no sense to me. What's the political advantage? Nothing! In fact it's politically highly disadvantageous for the PSNI in particular. The British government, surely, would prefer to let sleeping dogs lie.
I suppose you could postulate Loyalists within the police force just trying to make life uncomfortable for Adams. But surely they must have known the case would probably run into the ground. Wouldn't that be a bit of an own goal in the end? (Although Loyalists are quite good at cutting off their nose to spite their face so perhaps I am talking myself into this hypothesis).
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Turquoise wrote:
quote:
I suppose you could postulate Loyalists within the police force just trying to make life uncomfortable for Adams. But surely they must have known the case would probably run into the ground. Wouldn't that be a bit of an own goal in the end? (Although Loyalists are quite good at cutting off their nose to spite their face so perhaps I am talking myself into this hypothesis).
Might it not sometimes be the case that police pursue something simply because people have brought evidence forward, and that evidence is such that would generally warrant investigation?
Or is it the case that policing in Northern Ireland is just so politicized, that any move involving some major figure can be assumed as having partisan intent?
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Don't you think it might be a response to the advisory letters sent out to about 200 people telling them they were not being sought by the police, that buggered up that trial the other month ?
They have maybe been told to go as far as the evidence will take them in relation to anyone who has not got such a letter ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
A bit of cheap demagogery from wannabe next leader of Sinn Fein, Mary Lou McDonald, turned up on my Facebook feed this morning from a young cousin who drank the Kool-Aid in college:
"Our party leader Gerry Adams TD has been released without charge. Rest assured, his arrest was never about his past, but rather, about Sinn Fein's future."
The leadership can switch generations but the same old politics will remain.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Well, this morning's headlines are that Adams has been released. Just as he should be if there is no credible evidence on which he could be found guilty.
After my earlier post, some said in effect that there was a distinction between justice and peace. I don't accept that there is such a distinction. I don't accept that distinction. Let's start from the proposition that a ruler's duty is to protect his domain. External protection from invaders is easy to understand.
Internally, a ruler protects by the maintenance of a clear and impartial system of justice. No-one should be above the law. If there are disputes between individuals, then civil courts adjudicate. If the dispute is between the community as a whole and an individual, the criminal courts step in to enable the community to present its evidence against the accused. (All in basic terms of course, but you can understand where I'm going).
I'm wondering then how you analyze immunity and amnesty, which both interrupt the judicial process. I think in non-political cases, you can say that this aids justice - for example, if a petty drug-dealer is given immunity, in return for evidence against a big one.
But political amnesties definitely stop justice working, but for some political end, often described as social harmony. A very clear example in recent years, has been the amnesty in Spain for those who killed people during and after the Civil War (Ley de Amnistia 1977).
Presumably, the authorities thought that endless trials for civil war killings would stir up further social tensions. At the same time, there have been objections to the law, for example, on the grounds that mass killings cannot be subject to an amnesty, and there were a lot of deaths in Spain. The UN, for example, has objected to the amnesty law.
I suppose the Good Friday agreement involved various kinds of immunity, reduced sentences, and so on, again, in the cause of a greater peace. No doubt, again, some people disagree with this, for example, victims and victims' relatives.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
After my earlier post, some said in effect that there was a distinction between justice and peace. I don't accept that there is such a distinction. I don't accept that distinction.
Nor are guilt and innocence two automatic categories into which everyone falls. There's huge differences between guilt, innocence and whether one can bring charges that will stick.
Not charging Gerry Adams won't change the minds of anyone who already things that he's a Fenian murderer who'd got away with it yet again, a great Irish patriot, or a man who sold out 1998. Everybody, wherever they are on that range of opinions, thinks and suspects exactly the same this morning as they did yesterday, or last week.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Quetzalcoatl, in the example you give, what would otherwise be an appropriate sentence should be discounted to take allowance of the assistance: it gives recognition, the giving of assistance is good evidence of remorse, and also evidence of a lesser need for personal deterrence. The important aspect from my perspective is that it is all done openly. A judge hears submissions and gives a public decision exposing the reasons for the sentence given. It may be appropriate in some cases to withhold passing sentence, or suppressing the decision, until others have been dealt with, but such a step would result in only a temporary delay.
I understand the reasons given for amnesty in Spain and also the course adopted in South Africa. In a general sense, I would prefer what has been done in South Africa, as that process allows for at least some public examination.
Enoch, I'm not aware of any outcome in a trial here, in NZ, England, Canada, India or the US which allows for a verdict of other than guilty or not guilty. The Scots have their not proven verdict but there does not seem to have been a rush in the common law world to adopt that as a possible outcome. I assume that in other jurisdictions there are provisions similar to those here setting out when a prosecution should/should not be launched. In my original post, I referred to the need for the existence of credible evidence before Adams be charged. Perhaps there is none and that explains the course taken.
And as for the comments about the present DPP in NI being Adams former lawyer: what would happen elsewhere is that a similar officer in another jurisdiction would take over the case. The Rayney prosecution in Western Australia, for example, was conducted by the NSW DPP.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
@ Sioni and TurquoiseTastic
This seems the most likely reason for someone to think they should get busy.
"New evidence has come to light". The real issue is whether, in policing terms, they had a duty to follow it up, or whether some senior police officer or two wanted an excuse to awaken the sleeping dog on the ostensible grounds of the 'obligation of duty'.
The pot continues to simmer in Northern Iteland, as friends who live there tell me, and it won't take a lot for 'the troubles' to return.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Gee D
But it's precisely 'public examination' which is often avoided in amnesties. Again, in Spain, there was a feeling that it would be counter-productive to be endlessly trawling over old cases of killings, torture, and so on, in and after the Civil War. So the cases are never given an airing.
I can see the other side, of course; there is considerable resentment by victims' families. But not all of them, I have seen people in Spain say, yes, my grandfather was killed in the Red/White Terror, but we have to let the past be the past.
I suppose N. Ireland has taken a half-way house, not full amnesty, but reduced sentences, and the rather odd 'letters' to some people. Whether this will continue to work, who knows.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The other factor I forgot to mention is of course, time. People get old and die, and then the old cases become less raw.
Again, in Spain, it is now over 70 years since the end of the civil war, so I suppose old wounds are fading. Then again, sometimes these things come back into consciousness.
I suppose you can see this with Sinn Fein, they are moving away from the images of old men with grizzled beards, haggard from prison food, and are favouring pretty women living in nice suburbs, as they say, Mary Lou McMiddleClass.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Dave W:
quote:
If you've got examples of "many American Catholic academic institutions" raising money for the IRA, feel free to cite them.
Noraid collected in specifically targeted areas and had their hey-day in the 70's and 80's. Many people in many areas of the States had no notion what Noraid was, or had even heard of them, but in certain areas their presence was felt and known. During this period many catholic institutions were listed as both patrons and donors. For example, a few members of the Kennedy clan briefly appeared as patrons, Boston College hosted fund-raising events and were also donors and St Patrick's Cathedral New York regularly gave donations and hosted events. By the 90's things changed (they were going to change even more dramatically when 9/11 came). I think there was a test case or something regarding charitable registration. I'm sure if you google it, it will come up and provide you with a full list of donors if you're really that interested. But in any case during the 90's the modus operandi changed. They ended up collecting in Boston and Bronx pubs, at the Saint Patrick's Day Parade in Boston and New York and using students on campus as a foil for collection in colleges to avoid prosecution. There was always a chance that students could be suspended or chucked out, but Noraid could claim they knew nothing about it. It was during this time that things became confused too. Various new charities in Ireland were set up and claimed (when under pressure) that they benefited from Noraid money, but of course they weren't actually Noraid themselves. These were registered charities in Ireland (so not subject to US law regarding disclosure) and in Ireland, registration actually meant very little. There was no requirement for accountability and no external audit (hence the recent broo-ha-ha over charities here and how the money has been spent). After 9/11 Noraid seemed a lot less attractive to many, and it has been estimated that what was once millions of dollars has been reduced to thousands of dollars. This had an effect too on many of the institutions that formerly funded Noraid. Who in the post 9/11 States wants to be publicly associated with such a thing? Some of it has been wiped clean, but there is enough still there to get a fair picture.
As always, Google is your friend if you're really interested.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Not charging Gerry Adams won't change the minds of anyone who already things that he's a Fenian murderer who'd got away with it yet again, a great Irish patriot, or a man who sold out 1998. Everybody, wherever they are on that range of opinions, thinks and suspects exactly the same this morning as they did yesterday, or last week.
Indeed so , and together with....
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The pot continues to simmer in Northern Ireland, as friends who live there tell me, and it won't take a lot for 'the troubles' to return.
I agree it is all very fine for those of us who live a good distance from the powder keg to be highly principled about justice re. NI's past , we are unlikely to suffer the consequences . Yet the reason adams sticks in the craw for many of us is that for years he was demonised by the press as being the acceptable face of terrorism.
I've been to Ireland but not Northern Ireland . A member of my family did go there for a tour a couple years back and told me the tension is palpable . Caged streets in the old sectarian trouble spots is still the visible evidence that things are a long way from ideal.
ISTM that politics is the road to NI's future whereas violence only ever drags it back to the past . As much as politics might stink it's better than a hole in the head. That isn't to say disconnected people such as myself don't feel immense sorrow for those who lost loved ones in the Troubles.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Quetzalcoatl, another problem with age is the reliability and credibility of the evidence. Courts have been grappling with this sort of question for some time, most recently in the area of child sexual abuse. I understand that juries are now given a direction along the lines (and here I think I'm simplifying a fair bit) that with age, the prosecution evidence must be looked at very closely against the frailty of memory, and further that time may have made it more difficult for the accused to gather evidence in answer. A witness might say that the accused was driving a green Holden in 1978. The accused will say that he did not buy a green one until 1980, and that in '78 he was driving a white one; he will also call evidence to say that the official records were lost in the great flood of 1995 and nothing can be produced. That must be pointed out to a jury as a real disadvantage to the accused and the danger of relying upon the witness's evidence in those circumstances. The prosecution authorities will take that sort of thing into account in making a decision to prosecute.
But that does not deal with the other matters you raise. I would argue that real resolution will be better achieved by airing all these matters in the comparative calm and quiet of court proceedings than in giving blanket amnesties. I agree that the proceedings will cause initial disruption, but go on from there to look at the longer term benefits involved in the laying of charges in appropriate circumstances.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Dave W:
quote:
If you've got examples of "many American Catholic academic institutions" raising money for the IRA, feel free to cite them.
Boston College hosted fund-raising events and were also donors and St Patrick's Cathedral New York regularly gave donations and hosted events.
This is a (still citation-free) step back from the original claim, but I'd appreciate any evidence that Boston College and St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York (the seat of the archbishop of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York!) raised money for terrorists.
quote:
As always, Google is your friend if you're really interested.
But apparently it's not yours, since you have again failed to provide any sources. The allegations of terrorist funding are yours, not mine; if it's a trivial effort, surely it's not too much to ask that you back up your own claims?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Even the dogs on the street here knew what Noraid was up to during the 70's and 80's. If you want to bury your head in the sand that's entirely your own choice. I'm not going to do all the hard work for you.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Even the dogs on the street here knew what Noraid was up to during the 70's and 80's. If you want to bury your head in the sand that's entirely your own choice. I'm not going to do all the hard work for you.
Indeed. There was a banner behind Adams at his press conference with "Putting Ireland First" on it. The Ireland of weasel words around the IRA terror campaign, of which the murder of Jean McConville was only one small part, would not be an Ireland that I owe any allegiance to.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
So, in sum, "even the dogs on the street here" (wherever that is) know that "many American Catholic academic institutions" raised money for terrorists, and you won't do the "hard work" of backing up your own allegations?
OK, I'm happy to leave it at that.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The Wikipedia article on NORAID has citations, from there comes:
quote:
1981 case in US Federal Court
In May 1981, the U.S. Department of Justice won a court case forcing Noraid to register the Provisional Irish Republican Army as its "foreign principal", under the Foreign Agents Registration Act 1938. In his decision, US District Court Judge Charles S. Haight Jr. wrote: "The uncontroverted evidence is that [Noraid] is an agent of the IRA, providing money and services for other than relief purposes." Noraid lawyers appealed the decision but lost.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
And a New York Times story from 1982
quote:
From the start of the trial, the defendants had conceded that they had bought arms from a convicted arms smuggler working as an undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Citing patriotic motives, they also acknowledged they had intended to send the arms to the I.R.A. Mr. Harrison said he had been sending arms to the I.R.A. for 20 years.
One of the defendants was Michael Flannery, 80, a director of the Irish Northern Aid Committee
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Dave W:
quote:
So, in sum, "even the dogs on the street here" (wherever that is) know that "many American Catholic academic institutions" raised money for terrorists, and you won't do the "hard work" of backing up your own allegations?
You're totally right, I'm so sorry. It was really the Presbyterians that provided the lump of the cash and hosted all those fund-raising dinners. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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lapsed heathen
Hurler on the ditch
# 4403
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
A bit of cheap demagogery from wannabe next leader of Sinn Fein, Mary Lou McDonald, turned up on my Facebook feed this morning from a young cousin who drank the Kool-Aid in college:
"Our party leader Gerry Adams TD has been released without charge. Rest assured, his arrest was never about his past, but rather, about Sinn Fein's future."
The leadership can switch generations but the same old politics will remain.
Theirs a part of me that thinks MaryLou isn't lieing about this. The bit I haven't figured out is whether the PSNI were trying to play politics or if SF were.
The PSNI must have know this would go nowhere, Gerry knew the same so why did he wait? Until he could play the 'all a plot to discredit sf' card?
I wonder with the extension, were the PSNI let down by someone who promised evidence and got cold feet, I mean it can't be that they thought 2 more days would break someone who has been denying this for 24 years.
The government down here in the south must think the gods are smiling on them with this story burying a minister being found to have broken the law and a dodgy contract for fuel to one of their major doners.
Politics is a funny old game.
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"We are the Easter people and our song is Alleluia"
Posts: 1361 | From: Marble county | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Quetzalcoatl, another problem with age is the reliability and credibility of the evidence. Courts have been grappling with this sort of question for some time, most recently in the area of child sexual abuse. I understand that juries are now given a direction along the lines (and here I think I'm simplifying a fair bit) that with age, the prosecution evidence must be looked at very closely against the frailty of memory, and further that time may have made it more difficult for the accused to gather evidence in answer. A witness might say that the accused was driving a green Holden in 1978. The accused will say that he did not buy a green one until 1980, and that in '78 he was driving a white one; he will also call evidence to say that the official records were lost in the great flood of 1995 and nothing can be produced. That must be pointed out to a jury as a real disadvantage to the accused and the danger of relying upon the witness's evidence in those circumstances. The prosecution authorities will take that sort of thing into account in making a decision to prosecute.
But that does not deal with the other matters you raise. I would argue that real resolution will be better achieved by airing all these matters in the comparative calm and quiet of court proceedings than in giving blanket amnesties. I agree that the proceedings will cause initial disruption, but go on from there to look at the longer term benefits involved in the laying of charges in appropriate circumstances.
Well, maybe, but you are really saying that the Good Friday agreement should be abandoned. I say that because one of the reasons it has worked is that 'all these matters' have not been taken to court, and there has been a degree of immunity and amnesty.
I would say that amnesties often follow war, and civil wars, and major conflicts; otherwise, you never find peace.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Immunity and amnesty is fine so long as it wasn't your mother that disappeared and you believe you now the person or persons responsible.
It does rather bring up the question of just how much politicians have the right to decide on our behalf, without or with contemporary consultation.
I suspect that there are people who, having lost someone they love dear to the troubles - and now discovering the real nature of the amnesty - would want the negotiators concerned to be imprisoned, let alone the perpetrators. Nobody asked the victims what kind of amnesty there should be, did they?
The British Government lost a real opportunity and gave too much away in the Good Friday accord.. The IRA was desperate to settle - as funding via Noraid (mainly sources in the USA) had dwindled to nothing post 9/11 with Americans finally realised what terrorism looked like because they now saw it in their own backyards.
It's yet another thing that Blair will, one day, have to answer for.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Exclamation Mark wrote:
quote:
The British Government lost a real opportunity and gave too much away in the Good Friday accord.. The IRA was desperate to settle - as funding via Noraid (mainly sources in the USA) had dwindled to nothing post 9/11 with Americans finally realised what terrorism looked like because they now saw it in their own backyards.
The Good Friday Agreement was in 1998.
link
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
The British Government lost a real opportunity and gave too much away in the Good Friday accord.. The IRA was desperate to settle - as funding via Noraid (mainly sources in the USA) had dwindled to nothing post 9/11 with Americans finally realised what terrorism looked like because they now saw it in their own backyards.
It's yet another thing that Blair will, one day, have to answer for.
You mean that funding was dwindling already by 1998? I'm happy to blame Blair for most things, but criticising him for not foreseeing 9/11 in '98 seems a bit strong.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Quetzacotl:
quote:
Well, maybe, but you are really saying that the Good Friday agreement should be abandoned. I say that because one of the reasons it has worked is that 'all these matters' have not been taken to court, and there has been a degree of immunity and amnesty.
I'm not sure the Good Friday Agreement included any arrangements for a total and absolute amnesty on every past 'trouble'.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
So, in sum, "even the dogs on the street here" (wherever that is) know that "many American Catholic academic institutions" raised money for terrorists, and you won't do the "hard work" of backing up your own allegations?
I haven't done much legwork on this, and given I first made the claim, maybe I should have.
But a very quick google of "Boston College" and "Irish Northern Aid" brought up this transparent puff-piece for NORAID (and the Republican cause in general) in the BC student paper from March 1983. That's for starters - if I have time I'll look for more.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It might resolve things if it was declared that actions carried out under the auspices of a paramilitary group from 1930 to 1998 would be investigated and prosecuted by the international court of Justice at the Hague. So a truly independent prosecutor and judiciary would have to be convinced there was sufficient evidence to proceed. Just take it out of the hands of domestic authorities, to neutralise claims of the authorities playing politics with these issues. (Subject to any exemptions already agreed under the Good Friday agreement.)
That might involve the Irish and UK governments contributing jointly to a trust to fund such investgations by the Hague court, would be cheap by national standards, £10 million or sp.
[ 05. May 2014, 18:40: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Actually, that would be a good system for terrorism in general.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Quetzacotl:
quote:
Well, maybe, but you are really saying that the Good Friday agreement should be abandoned. I say that because one of the reasons it has worked is that 'all these matters' have not been taken to court, and there has been a degree of immunity and amnesty.
I'm not sure the Good Friday Agreement included any arrangements for a total and absolute amnesty on every past 'trouble'.
So are you suggesting that that's what I've said?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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