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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Catholic elementary school teachers now subject to morality police
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
Could
this
happen in the UK/your education system? If not - how robust are (should be?) the defences against such interference in an employee's personal life?
Do (if there are any) supporters of this bishop's actions accept that it would be equally reasonable for secular schools to fire those who publicly express religious opinions (creationism/transubstantiation/need for redemption/opposition to legal abortion etc.) albeit they did so only outside their work environment?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Not surprising or unexpected, is it? Teachers are seen as leaders the kids look up to and imitate, whether they see the teacher in class or on Facebook. In a Catholic school one of the things teachers teach is morals in accordance with Catholic doctrine, yes? The kid sees teacher doing something outside class the teacher told the class not to do, kid is going to reject what teacher taught in class because he sees the teacher reject it, yes?
Whether these concerns are within today's understanding of a job relationship is an interesting question. But don't take a job as a Democratic party speechwriter and be seen cheering for a Republican candidate at a rally if you want to keep your job!
Also don't take a job at a factory and be seen on TV or Facebook telling people the factory's product is far shoddier than it's competition! Don't take a job in a doctor office or lawyer office or insurance office and been heard telling people all doctors/lawyers/insurance agents are a waste of money.
No one wants an employee who publicly scorns the product they are hired to produce or scorns the employer. Why should a church be different?
I have a teacher friend who won't take a role in a play that has her swearing or dressing scantily because she knows if her students come the play the students won't see a character in the play doing these things but Miss Mason doing them. That will carry over to the classroom attitude towards the teacher, making teaching harder.
Just tossing some thoughts into the arena.
I once had a job in a small town where the boss reminded us everyone in town know what our job is whether or not we were in job uniform, we represented the organization in other people's minds whether we were on or off the job, behave accordingly. That's true, isn't it, we see someone drive drunk and it's the banker or the priest or the solder we see even though he's out of uniform and off duty at the time.
Maybe some jobs you go to and go home and off job life has nothing to do with the job, but other jobs what you do off job really does affect your on-job effectiveness? Then the question is - which of those two categories is teaching in a catholic school?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
"j. Serious dishonesty"
I should think that anyone subscribing to the majority of the rest of the list would be guilty of j.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I wonder if civil, Jewish, Orthodox, Protestant or Buddhist marriages qualify as recognized by the Catholic Church. They are going to have to fire a fair number of employees.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
Hmmm. They are (private?) faith schools. So as long as they aren't breaking the law the employer can do this if they want. I suspect that in the long run it will drive more people away.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
It would absolutely be illegal in the UK, and rightly so.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
So if you have a gay or lesbian child, you would not be allowed to support it in various ways? Gulp.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
For what it is worth, I know, personally, in my own little part of the Catholic church of at least two sets of parents* who support openly gay children while maintaining their own church membership.
What would you have parents do? Cast their children into the outer darkness (ok, I know many parents do that and they don't have to be Catholic to do so), or support their children in a life choice not of the child's own choosing?
Support does not necessarily mean approval. It means that love beats everything else. And that is as it should be.
*As I said - my own little corner. There are probably many, many more, of whom I know nothing.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Roman Catholic school wants teachers comfortable with Roman Catholic social teaching and that's a problem why? Should secular private schools be allowed to only teachers that share their values (at least publicly)? Of course they should. Will this choice on the part of the diocese alienate some potential families? Absolutely. I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't the point.
Look, I disagree either in part if not totally with some aspects of Roman Catholic social teaching. However, Mrs. Mother Beeswax Altar and I won't hesitate to send our daughter to a conservative Roman Catholic school knowing full well she will be taught an ideology we don't completely share. Why? It's simple really. One, the academics will likely be better that at the local public school. Two, the Roman Catholic school will reinforce much of the religious worldview she will be taught at home. Three, popular culture will help us counterbalance what she hears at school.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
It remains to be seen if this is workable even in the US. The days when parochial schools in the US could be staffed almost entirely by nuns and monks are long gone. Many parochial schools pay less than the public systems. As a result, many teachers already come from other faith traditions.
If this makes it more difficult to fill positions with quality teachers (especially in Math and Science) the schools will no longer be able to draw the same quality of student. Not all students are Catholic either--a high quality Catholic parochial school will be bringing in a fair chunk of tuition from talented non-Catholic students.
As a result, I expect the level of control envisioned by this clause will be unsustainable for practical reasons very quickly.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I think most 'ordinary' church schools in the UK are alreadly likely to be staffed mainly by non-practising Christians, so this sort of thing wouldn't get off the ground here even if it were legally possible, which I doubt it is.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Hmmm. They are (private?) faith schools. So as long as they aren't breaking the law the employer can do this if they want. I suspect that in the long run it will drive more people away.
Agree ... and certainly hope so.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Then the idea of the parochial school is dead. Why would Roman Catholics who actually believe what their church teaches (and by believe what their church teaches I mean believe the things that separate it from the Rotary Club)pay teachers to teach their children the same values they would learn in public school? Catholics schools will either close or go the way of Episcopal schools which are largely training academies for the 1$ and have little to do with Christianity at all. Perhaps, homeschooling will be the only answer.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
shock horror! Roman Catholic School run By Roman Catholics! For Roman Catholics! WTF is the world coming to? Were is the freedom of choice?
In world news mosque insists Imam be a Muslim! Closer to home Charismatic Evangelical youth worker needed by local church! Atheists need not apply!?!? In nature news bear shits in the woods!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Sorry just a little underwhelmed by the scandal.
Chaz
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chill:
shock horror! Roman Catholic School run By Roman Catholics! For Roman Catholics! WTF is the world coming to? Were is the freedom of choice?
Is being a Roman Catholic limited to one's sexual values and behaviors? I don't see anything there about attending Mass, taking Communion, serving the needy, or any of a number of other things Catholics are expected to do.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Roman Catholicism is about what Rome says it's about. Rome chose to speak authoritatively on those issues. Hence, social issues are part of Roman Catholicism.
[ 13. May 2014, 15:08: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It would absolutely be illegal in the UK, and rightly so.
I take it you would support the right of a teacher to speak out publicly in support of traditional Catholic teaching.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Roman Catholicism is about what Rome says it's about. Rome chose to speak authoritatively on those issues. Hence, social issues are part of Roman Catholicism.
It has also spoken authoritatively against contraception and the death penalty. Neither appear on that list.
I am amazed that anyone sees this contract as sincere. It's their way of circumventing labor law by forcing all teaching to be ministers, thereby allowing the Diocese to fire any employees for any reason as long as it can somehow be tied to a belief of the church. If someone sues for wrongful dismissal, all the Diocese has to do it trawl through their Facebook and Instagram until it finds that the teacher has "Liked" someone's gay wedding photos. Boom, no more lawsuit.
The good news is that women can now be ministers in the Diocese of Cleveland, apparently.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Two issues here - the specific contents of the list, vs having any list.
Do people here think the list maker went overboard with rules and lacks awareness of real life messyness, or do they think there should be no list at all?
What does it mean to be a school that stands for a specific moral code? If they expect staff to follow that code on and off the job they are interfering where they have no right, but if they allow staff to diss the code they are hypocrites for keeping those people on staff? The church school is wrong no matter what it does?
I'm not a huge fan of the Catholic church but anyone who gets involved with them knows what environment they have entered. If you don't like that environment, you are allowed to leave it.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Chill:
shock horror! Roman Catholic School run By Roman Catholics! For Roman Catholics! WTF is the world coming to? Were is the freedom of choice?
Is being a Roman Catholic limited to one's sexual values and behaviors? I don't see anything there about attending Mass, taking Communion, serving the needy, or any of a number of other things Catholics are expected to do.
I'm sure that faith commitment is a big part of what would be expected of teaching young Catholics about Catholicism in a catholic school yes. It is in most church schools. In other news Abu Hamza likely to be refused job as concert pianist.
Chaz
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
So if you have a gay or lesbian child, you would not be allowed to support it in various ways? Gulp.
I'm not sure a gay or lesbian child would want to go to a Catholic school anyway, knowing what the Catholic Church teaches about SSRs
[That's presuming of course that s/he is already 'out'; it is of course much more problematic in the OP scenario if s/he becomes aware of his/her sexual orientation when already at the school.]
[ 13. May 2014, 16:33: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Do people here think the list maker went overboard with rules and lacks awareness of real life messyness, or do they think there should be no list at all?
I think it's the former. Firing teachers for sins that have nothing to do with their job or function within the school shows an astounding lack of love and grace and total ignorance of human weakness.
Beyond this, the "support of..." rules are so vague that their purpose can only be to serve as a catch-all for people they wish to fire.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Roman Catholicism is about what Rome says it's about. Rome chose to speak authoritatively on those issues. Hence, social issues are part of Roman Catholicism.
It has also spoken authoritatively against contraception and the death penalty. Neither appear on that list.
I am amazed that anyone sees this contract as sincere. It's their way of circumventing labor law by forcing all teaching to be ministers, thereby allowing the Diocese to fire any employees for any reason as long as it can somehow be tied to a belief of the church. If someone sues for wrongful dismissal, all the Diocese has to do it trawl through their Facebook and Instagram until it finds that the teacher has "Liked" someone's gay wedding photos. Boom, no more lawsuit.
The good news is that women can now be ministers in the Diocese of Cleveland, apparently.
Birth Control is unenforceable. How would they know if somebody is using birth control or not? They can't publicly advocate in favor of using birth control. The death penalty is a little more complicated.
If you have a problem with Roman Catholicism, don't apply for a job at a Roman Catholic school. Parochial schools pay less than public schools. It can't be about the money.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
If you have a problem with Roman Catholicism, don't apply for a job at a Roman Catholic school. Parochial schools pay less than public schools. It can't be about the money.
In your view, is a Roman Catholic involved in sexual sin, someone who "has a problem" with the church? Or someone who is just weak or struggling?
The rules as stated not only would allow a teacher to be fired for sending a sexy text to a boyfriend or girlfriend in a moment of weakness, they would even allow a teacher to be fired for publicly supporting someone who is not even a Catholic doing the same action.
If teachers must not sin then we will have no teachers. If church members must not sin then we will have no Christians.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I think the problem for the church authorities these days is not so much that lay Catholics are sometimes 'weak' like everyone else, but rather that they're consciously prepared to disregard more and more of the church's teachings.
Spiritual authority now resides in the self, not in the pronouncement of church hierarchies. One could argue that this makes sense in Protestantism, but in the RCC?
[ 13. May 2014, 17:28: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Don't conservative Catholics complain that the church has been Protestantized?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
If you have a problem with Roman Catholicism, don't apply for a job at a Roman Catholic school. Parochial schools pay less than public schools. It can't be about the money.
In your view, is a Roman Catholic involved in sexual sin, someone who "has a problem" with the church? Or someone who is just weak or struggling?
The rules as stated not only would allow a teacher to be fired for sending a sexy text to a boyfriend or girlfriend in a moment of weakness, they would even allow a teacher to be fired for publicly supporting someone who is not even a Catholic doing the same action.
If teachers must not sin then we will have no teachers. If church members must not sin then we will have no Christians.
The school can decide the consequences for breaking the agreement. Theoretically, draconian enforcement of the covenant could hinder the school from finding adequate teachers. If so, the problem will correct itself one way or the other.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Roman Catholic school wants teachers comfortable with Roman Catholic social teaching and that's a problem why?
I get the argument as you posted, but I think you overstate. The issue is not "comfort" it is legislating conduct. There is also no forgiveness implied. It comes across as comfortable as I imagine Mormon underwear is, and resembles the contracts at radical fundamentalist "universities". I have trouble with the "teacher-minister" idea as well unless they plan to ordain the teachers as well.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It would absolutely be illegal in the UK, and rightly so.
I take it you would support the right of a teacher to speak out publicly in support of traditional Catholic teaching.
Not when that teaching is harmful to vulnerable groups. Blanket 'freedom of speech' is libertarian nonsense that only benefits those who already have power.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The Diocese of Cleveland doesn't have the power to legislate anything.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Roman Catholic school wants teachers comfortable with Roman Catholic social teaching and that's a problem why? Should secular private schools be allowed to only teachers that share their values (at least publicly)? Of course they should. Will this choice on the part of the diocese alienate some potential families? Absolutely. I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't the point.
Look, I disagree either in part if not totally with some aspects of Roman Catholic social teaching. However, Mrs. Mother Beeswax Altar and I won't hesitate to send our daughter to a conservative Roman Catholic school knowing full well she will be taught an ideology we don't completely share. Why? It's simple really. One, the academics will likely be better that at the local public school. Two, the Roman Catholic school will reinforce much of the religious worldview she will be taught at home. Three, popular culture will help us counterbalance what she hears at school.
Do parochial schools get federal funding?
In the UK, most RC schools are state schools and must follow the national curriculum, just like CoE and other state faith schools. I don't think it's inappropriate to have public servants on the public dime follow equality legislation - I don't think it's inappropriate to have everyone follow equality legislation, but the 'they're not state schools so they can do whatever they like' argument doesn't apply to most UK RC schools.
I have no idea what the situation is for private faith schools in the UK, though there are restrictions - creationism cannot be taught even in private schools here, though that doesn't affect RC schools as such.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Roman Catholic schools fund themselves through tuition and I believe contributions from the local parishes. The federal government doesn't have as much authority over local schools as it does in the UK. As far as I'm concerned, the federal government should have very little control over publicly funded local schools and absolutely no authority over private schools.
[ 13. May 2014, 18:21: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
In your view, is a Roman Catholic involved in sexual sin, someone who "has a problem" with the church? Or someone who is just weak or struggling?
Well, I think it depends, doesn't it? Someone who is involved with some kind of sin, whether sexual or otherwise, understands that it is a sin, and is trying to overcome it is a faithful son or daughter of the church.
Someone who is involved in sin, obstinately continues to proclaim that that sin is not in fact sinful, in opposition to the church's teachings, and makes it clear that he has no intention of trying to change his behaviour would be someone who "has a problem" with the church.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Roman Catholic schools fund themselves through tuition and I believe contributions from the local parishes. The federal government doesn't have as much authority over local schools as it does in the UK. As far as I'm concerned, the federal government should have very little control over publicly funded local schools and absolutely no authority over private schools.
Though, ironically, if U.S. conservatives got their way with school vouchers then the state would support parochial schools and then get a say in how they operate. (This already happens at a university level because of federal and state student grants and loans.)
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Maybe not. The Supreme Court decided the Cleveland voucher program was constitutional. If it came to that, parochial schools would have to decide whether to accept vouchers or not.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
It's my understanding (not necessarily current, and I'm happy to be corrected if mistaken) that federal funds DO make their way into parochial and other faith schools, though such funds are supposed to be strictly limited to non-religious aspects of the curriculum. If there's a federal "say", then, that too is limited to the purposes for which the funds were granted.
Interestingly, the last time I checked, the same earnestly faithful people were claiming that federal money which can readily be divided up in schools in this fashion is completely incapable of being separated when doled out to entities like Planned Parenthood.
Working as I do in a not-for-profit agency which uses grants from a variety of public and private sources for a variety of purposes, I have to confess to a certain amount of skepticism regarding the actual, over-the-counter, neat-and-precise divisibility of funds in this fashion. It's one of the very few (maybe only?) points on which I agree with those who make this claim about funding Planned Parenthood. I think it's a set of bookkeeper's fictions.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The Diocese of Cleveland doesn't have the power to legislate anything.
I do wonder if you meant to mince words on this versus discussing it. Did you really not understand the sense in which the word "legislate" was used in this discussion?
This diocese (or bishop) apparently thinks it can require specific conduct of the teachers and create rules of conduct, thus legislating these requirements of these people, with clear consequence for breaking the legislated rules. It is the governing body for the schools and thus can legislate insofar as they operate. So, yes, the diocese of Cleveland can legislate.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Well, then yes, the Diocese of Cleveland can legislate the conduct of those who agree to teach in religious schools. Teacher minister or whatever is silly but legally required in order to prevent government interference.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Well, then yes, the Diocese of Cleveland can legislate the conduct of those who agree to teach in religious schools. Teacher minister or whatever is silly but legally required in order to prevent government interference.
I wonder if a teacher will be able to turn around and start conducting weddings as a Catholic "minister."
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Ministers in minor orders can't conduct weddings. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
It's their way of circumventing labor law by forcing all teaching to be ministers, thereby allowing the Diocese to fire any employees for any reason as long as it can somehow be tied to a belief of the church.
I strongly suspect that this is the nub of the matter.
In the opinion of posters, if this were primarily an attempt to avoid accountability for the RCC's employment practice would this, which presumably is perfectly legal, be moral? Is this, perhaps, akin to the questions of morality affecting tax avoidance/evasion?
[ 14. May 2014, 08:06: Message edited by: HughWillRidmee ]
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
I strongly suspect that this is the nub of the matter.
In the opinion of posters, if this were primarily an attempt to avoid accountability for the RCC's employment practice would this, which presumably is perfectly legal, be moral? Is this, perhaps, akin to the questions of morality affecting tax avoidance/evasion?
I'll also post the 2012 Supreme Court case that upheld the "ministerial exception" and said that federal discrimination laws do not apply when religions are selecting candidates to hold ministerial positions.
Hosanna-Tabor vs EEOC
That within a few years several Catholic dioceses in the United States have suddenly had a revelation that teachers are actually ministers, is nothing short of a cynical use of this Supreme Court ruling to allow them greater control over their employees.
I do not have any objection to requiring teachers to promote and uphold Catholic values within their official capacities. However I do object to using the religious freedom granted by the US Constitution to bully workers and unfairly limit their rights as employees, and this is what the Cleveland Diocese appears to be doing.
If the word "minister" was removed from those contracts they would be 100% illegal under Ohio and US law. I would not be surprised if there are lawyers already preparing a case that shows that teachers are not in practice functioning as ministers and are only being called so in order to circumvent the law. I do not see any definition here within the Catholic use of the term "minister" that includes a school teacher whose subject is non-religious (NB I had a link to "Minister (Catholic Church)" from Wikipedia but cannot post it as SoF won't allow a link with parentheses).
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Net Spinster
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# 16058
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Posted
Might be interesting also in having Catholic 'ministers' who aren't even Christian much less Catholic.
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spinner of webs
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
Roman Catholics may have to tweek things a bit to avoid running afoul of the Supreme Court. Maybe not. Justice Roberts points out that the definition of minister isn't clearly defined. He may have the votes to argue that the churches themselves can define minister.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Roman Catholics may have to tweek things a bit to avoid running afoul of the Supreme Court. Maybe not. Justice Roberts points out that the definition of minister isn't clearly defined. He may have the votes to argue that the churches themselves can define minister.
I read an article (which I now can't find) that said a state court in Pennsylvania ruled that a non-Catholic computer teacher at a Catholic school is not a minister and therefore the school cannot be exempt from normal labor laws in regards to non-ministerial employees.
I am confident that the Ohio diocese will be challenged in court, given the precedent.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
How is the situation described in the OP that qualitatively different from the 'Trojan Horse' allegations in Muslim schools in the West Midlands here?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
How is the situation described in the OP that qualitatively different from the 'Trojan Horse' allegations in Muslim schools in the West Midlands here?
My understanding is that the West Midlands schools are state schools that allegedly are being targeted by hardline Muslims to replace headteachers and then apply for academy status to convert them into Islamic schools.
The schools in Ohio are private Catholic schools under the authority of the Diocese. They have introduced a new contract for teachers (who employed on a year-to-year basis so must re-sign every summer) that calls them "teacher-ministers" and requires them to agree to a long list of rules about behavior and personal conduct in all aspects of their lives. So any teachers who do not want to be considered ministers or who are in violation of any of those rules, will either have to lie and sign the contract anyway, or look for a new job.
Or, I suppose a third option is kicking their partner out of the house or disowning their gay child.
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