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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The curious phenomenon of 'celebrity Christians'
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OddJob
Shipmate
# 17591
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Posted
I once spent 18 months as a member of the same Nottingham church as Joyce Huggett, at the peak of her fame in the late 1980s. In all that time I saw her in Church only once. Jumping the queue to hold a conversation with her would have been out of the question. I wonder where she went to worship?
For the other type of 'celebrity Christian' Natasha Bedingfield and her parents once dropped in for tea with my brother and his wife, with a mutual friend, at the time when her brother Daniel was just becoming famous and Natasha was unknown. My brother regarded the family as sincere Christians and decent people. Natasha in particular was engaging and genuinely interested in my sister-in-law's art. I suspect a year later the position would have been very different, with the family probably tired of being pestered and craving solitude.
Posts: 97 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Mar 2013
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Yes, again fair point. I suppose I was referring specifically to folk who do in fact put themselves ''up front'' the microphone holders and often prima donna musicians who are ''up themselves '' big time and take the ''lime light''. Then when I see this adulation (common in the charismatic/Pentecostal circles I used to meander in) it sort of makes me get into bolshy scouser mode - once again.
It strikes me that you're the one with a problem here, not the performers.
Yes, people consistently telling you how brilliant and holy you are and how much of a blessing you're bringing to them and their lives can cause a surfeit of pride, and the solution is to stop believing the sun shines out of their oratory.
But if musicians are at the front of church, playing for an hour (or two), it is both technically, physically and emotionally demanding. They're probably not going to want to serve tea to the congregation afterwards, or even engage in anything other than small talk with other people in the band.
You could actually try cutting them some slack.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I suppose I was referring specifically to folk who do in fact put themselves ''up front'' the microphone holders and often prima donna musicians who are ''up themselves '' big time and take the ''lime light''...
...if musicians are at the front of church, playing for an hour (or two), it is both technically, physically and emotionally demanding. They're probably not going to want to serve tea to the congregation afterwards, or even engage in anything other than small talk with other people in the band....
It's a mixed bag. There are seem to be celebrities who seek/enjoy celebrity status in the secular world for doing nothing but being celebrities. There may be some in the Christian world too. Or some who think having written a few books or songs makes them deserving of praise (for which they can appear properly humble but be annoyed if the praise doesn't happen enough). I know a woman who wrote a book that was a flash-in-the-pan "best seller", she was flown to NYC for TV interviews - and then nothing, which caught her by surprise, she thought she had achieved Christian celebrity status; she did, for her "15 seconds."
But others who have no celebrity aspirations get accused of "seeking the lime light" just because their role puts them up front and visible - sermonizer, song leader, soloist (instrumental of vocal).
And still others - write a book (write or record a song) that gets notice, do it again (because that's just what you do) and pretty soon some people start treating the author as if special, and then others object that you are "seeking celebrity status." Can't win.
Can be hard to truly tell whether a person in the spotlight is merely being treated as a celebrity by others on those others initiative, or seeking to be regarded as "superior."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I suppose I was referring specifically to folk who do in fact put themselves ''up front'' the microphone holders and often prima donna musicians who are ''up themselves '' big time and take the ''lime light''...
...if musicians are at the front of church, playing for an hour (or two), it is both technically, physically and emotionally demanding. They're probably not going to want to serve tea to the congregation afterwards, or even engage in anything other than small talk with other people in the band....
It's a mixed bag. There are seem to be celebrities who seek/enjoy celebrity status in the secular world for doing nothing but being celebrities. There may be some in the Christian world too. Or some who think having written a few books or songs makes them deserving of praise (for which they can appear properly humble but be annoyed if the praise doesn't happen enough). I know a woman who wrote a book that was a flash-in-the-pan "best seller", she was flown to NYC for TV interviews - and then nothing, which caught her by surprise, she thought she had achieved Christian celebrity status; she did, for her "15 seconds."
But others who have no celebrity aspirations get accused of "seeking the lime light" just because their role puts them up front and visible - sermonizer, song leader, soloist (instrumental of vocal).
And still others - write a book (write or record a song) that gets notice, do it again (because that's just what you do) and pretty soon some people start treating the author as if special, and then others object that you are "seeking celebrity status." Can't win.
Can be hard to truly tell whether a person in the spotlight is merely being treated as a celebrity by others on those others initiative, or seeking to be regarded as "superior."
I find myself agreeing with Belle Ringer here.
Obviously there are times when one has to use discretion and tact. We have to as Doc Tor said ''cut them some slack.'' - Yes point taken here.
However, the issue surely is that ''celebrity Christians'', that is those who actually take on the trimmings, trappings, kudos of worldly pride , fame and wealth, have fundamentally blown it to an extent?
The term ''celebrity Christian'' is surely an oxymoron?
When I mentioned the famous Christan (now ex) band/group, what was getting up my nose was the arrogance that their success seemed to have surrounded them with. All that adulation can bring out that awful sin, the original sin of Satan - pride.
That was the issue with me and the other thing was the constant fawning by church leaders about ''the boys''. Admittedly they were/are talented and gifted. But one of them in particular is so up himself and anal that it is mind boggling.
Celebrity Christians I would say is a contradiction in terms.
Saul the Apostle
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
Constant fawning by others is not necessarily the fault of those on the receiving end.
The desire to "bring people down a peg or two" comes across as either envy or inferiority complex.
Some people seem to forget that "celebrities" are real people too, whether Christian or otherwise, and should simply be treated with the same politeness and respect that you would extend to others, no more and no less. The more we treat them normally the less temptation we put in their path to pride etc. However we also should not be afraid to recognise and celebrate talent, sucess and hard work in the right ways.
In my experience sometimes someone seeming "up himself" can be due to very different personality types or cultural differences in how people express things. At times I've come to realise that what I interpreted as arrogance was more in my perception than the reality. But YMMV...
[ 17. May 2014, 11:30: Message edited by: Lucia ]
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
I'm not terribly annoyed by this phenomenon except when it comes to what could be called "celebrity clergy": televangelists and other preachers who have made a name for themselves by proclaiming the gospel (however they see it) via the mass media. I have found, over the years, that just because they are seen on television, heard on radio, have written books, et.al., it's assumed by some laypeople that what they say carries more weight than what the local pastor says. Obviously, that might actually be true if the preacher has a legitimate, accredited Ph.D., Th.D., or whatever, but just because Reverend Bozo is on TV (oh, how I could name names here!) doesn't mean that he (or she) has any more teaching authority than anyone else. It's comparable to the "If it's on the Internet, it must be true" mindset. Grrrr.
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
I'm not terribly annoyed by this phenomenon except when it comes to what could be called "celebrity clergy": televangelists and other preachers who have made a name for themselves by proclaiming the gospel (however they see it) via the mass media.
I agree with you generally, with two additions / caveats:
Firstly, you mentioned having a qualification as something that might make you trust a 'celebrity Christian' more. I get what you mean, but if this trust is more or less automatic (oh, this person, has an MDiv etc. so I'll trust them) then isn't that merely a different form of the mistake being made by people who blindly trust a preacher / author etc. who has a media profile?
Which leads on to my second point: IMO the healthy thing is for all of us to take part in the community-based search for truth, revelation and God's ongoing guidance. We shouldn't ever suspend our critical faculties and our own communion with God, whether it's a 'celebrity Christian', a highly-qualified minister, a well-loved public figure, or a denominational leader who is seeking to guide or instruct us.
Blind acceptance and the discouraging of regular folks' own engagement with God and scriptures are highly dangerous things IMO.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
However, the issue surely is that ''celebrity Christians'', that is those who actually take on the trimmings, trappings, kudos of worldly pride , fame and wealth, have fundamentally blown it to an extent?
The term ''celebrity Christian'' is surely an oxymoron?
Maybe we need two different terns to discuss the issue because "celebrity Christian" covers both those unwillingly adulated by others and those seeking adulation. The second meaning is an oxymoron, yes.
But the first group, the oxymoron is in their "followers" not in themselves. What term should be used about people who successfully do things of value that put them in the spotlight even though they are not looking to be adored? So when someone objects to celebrity Christians the two groups treated as celebrities by others can easily be distinguished?
Yes some seek prideful status. No that does not reflect Christian values. On the other hand doing excellent work and knowing it is excellent and being delighted if others recognize it as excellent, is humility - truth awareness. The error is when awareness of excellence crosses over to craving adulation.
A few decades ago I read an article about the evangelical world's then habit of grabbing any baby christian who had a famous name - recent convert football pro for example - and throw him onto the speaker circuit, lots of audiences thrilling at his story of how he met God, telling him he was a great Christian leader with a special message. Baby christian with big secular name would start believing the adulation, think themselves special, and crash spiritually, demanding special favors or exemptions from moral guidelines because of their supposed specialness.
No new Christian should be held in the public spotlight as if their proper place. Mature Christians have a better chance of dismissing the approving shouts as mere noise, and a better chance of having people around them providing reality check.
But adulation seeking celebrity Christian often became that way because that's what others taught them to expect.
The enemy is (again) us.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
However, the issue surely is that ''celebrity Christians'', that is those who actually take on the trimmings, trappings, kudos of worldly pride , fame and wealth, have fundamentally blown it to an extent?
The term ''celebrity Christian'' is surely an oxymoron?
Maybe we need two different terns to discuss the issue because "celebrity Christian" covers both those unwillingly adulated by others and those seeking adulation. The second meaning is an oxymoron, yes.
But the first group, the oxymoron is in their "followers" not in themselves. What term should be used about people who successfully do things of value that put them in the spotlight even though they are not looking to be adored? So when someone objects to celebrity Christians the two groups treated as celebrities by others can easily be distinguished?
Yes some seek prideful status. No that does not reflect Christian values. On the other hand doing excellent work and knowing it is excellent and being delighted if others recognize it as excellent, is humility - truth awareness. The error is when awareness of excellence crosses over to craving adulation.
A few decades ago I read an article about the evangelical world's then habit of grabbing any baby christian who had a famous name - recent convert football pro for example - and throw him onto the speaker circuit, lots of audiences thrilling at his story of how he met God, telling him he was a great Christian leader with a special message. Baby christian with big secular name would start believing the adulation, think themselves special, and crash spiritually, demanding special favors or exemptions from moral guidelines because of their supposed specialness.
No new Christian should be held in the public spotlight as if their proper place. Mature Christians have a better chance of dismissing the approving shouts as mere noise, and a better chance of having people around them providing reality check.
But adulation seeking celebrity Christian often became that way because that's what others taught them to expect.
The enemy is (again) us.
BR
I would generally agree with pretty much all you say.
Having seen posturing in the Charismatic/Pentecostal churches over some years, perhaps explains my own views somewhat. Sadly, often in the USA (and to a lesser degree the UK), there is a cult of celebrity Christianity, don't you think?
When someone is successful let us applaud that success, of course.
However, when it is proud, self serving and focused often on the love of money, power and prestige it is, surely, questionable?
I am now an Anglican in the Church of England and it is refreshing to go to church and not see people ''performing'' although i am sure some Vicar's would say they do this every Sunday! But having been in the Charismatic/Pentcostal wing of the church I have a highly attuned b******t detector, honed over many years.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Having seen posturing in the Charismatic/Pentecostal churches over some years, perhaps explains my own views somewhat.
I am now an Anglican in the Church of England and it is refreshing to go to church and not see people ''performing''...
LOL, friends whose father is TEC clergy say he LOVES the spotlight that's why he got ordained. (Oh boy does he proudly boast about his "great" sermons, which leave the congregation looking puzzled by the theme-less rambling.)
You get all personality kinds in all denominations. Personally I like when people allow some of their personality to show instead of making church a robotic event. YMMV, and that's OK!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Belle Ringer wrote:
quote:
LOL, friends whose father is TEC clergy say he LOVES the spotlight that's why he got ordained. (Oh boy does he proudly boast about his "great" sermons, which leave the congregation looking puzzled by the theme-less rambling.)
Joan Didion's essay about Bishop James Pike makes him sound like a narcissistic showman.
Though, Didion was probably biased, because apparently Pike announced the completion of Grace Cathederal, which she considered to be something akin to blasphemy.
Plus, at the time she wrote the essay, Didion tended to hold left-wing politics in an intuitive disdain.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
As a kind of tangent. Giftedness in one area doesn't necessarily imply maturity of character.
In fact there are some kinds of giftedness (art in particular) which often go hand in hand with immaturity primarily because of the age at which they are normally developed.
So tales of 'so and so-famous Christian is a complete arse' disappoint me a little, but I'm not surprised by them.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Joan Didion's essay about Bishop James Pike makes him sound like a narcissistic showman.
Living in Pike's old diocese, and knowing quite a few people who knew him (read : were persecuted by him), leads me to believe that Joan Didion wasn't exaggerating.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Just read this blog post about the 'celebrity Christians' phenomenon and thought I'd put it up here to see what people think. The author Donald Miller said a little while ago that he rarely attends church services, and I think Rob Bell might have said the same at some point. This post gave me an insight into why they've taken that decision - from the article:
quote:
Miller explained that going to church for him was really difficult, because kind, good-willed people were constantly coming up to him asking him to help with their different projects, or for book-writing advice, or they just flooded him with requests to get together to talk. Donald Miller’s problem is that he is a celebrity.
Do you think this is a big problem in Christianity today? Do we have a massively unhealthy attitude towards Christians who've achieved some level of fame? Or are people like Miller and Bell being over-sensitive and selfish?
Just reading the article that SCK referred to, it is about America.
The USA is similar to the UK, but just writ large.
Our home group has just been looking at 1 Peter and like the book of James in the Bible (referred to in the article), it seems to have something to say about the hierarchical structures of the day, so absolutely relevant to 2014.
Basically, the world's ''celebrity'' model is fundamentally hierarchical (and corrosive), both in the world of work and also, say, show business.
Surely the key point is that the church and Christians should not mimic that hierarchical power structure?
The churches we go to should be counter cultural establishment, where as in the book of James, there shouldn't be power structures / hirerarchies?
As a footnote a few years ago I read ''Mc Queen'' the biography by Christopher Sandford, about the legendary US actor Steve McQueen. He became a genuine convert to Christianity in his later years and regularly slipped into the back of a small local chapel near where he lived. He knew the power of fame and celebrity big time, yet he wanted to be ''normal'' and be part of that little church community without all the adulation and emptiness that celebrity brings; I was quite touched by his genuine conversion and his desire for simplicity and non recognition in his church.
Saul
[ 21. May 2014, 06:09: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
This is nothing to do with 'hierarchical structure' or anything else, but to do with people: the so-called ordinary people who attend a church and the 'celebrities' who go to a church.
If a celebrity feels put-upon by people at the church they attend surely it is not beyond their wit to say something along the lines of please, I'm not here as the person you may read about in the paper or whose books you borrow from the library, I'm here just to be a member of the congregation. That should not cause offence to anyone but should make it clear they don't want to be hounded.
We have several 'celebrity' regulars: the easiest thing would be for us to ask them to open the fete, do a fundraising talk/gig, etc, etc: we don't because they we feel it fairer to wait for them to offer - and sometimes they do. But the reason they stay with us is, I know, partly because they cease to be 'A/B/C-list XXX' when they come to church and are simply a private person, same as the rest of us.
But there are some celebs who like to be noticed - indeed can get quite shirty if they don't get the fawning - and I suspect that their number must include a fair number of so-called 'celebrity Christians'.
Remember the old joke: the default answer to a furious 'Don't you know who I am?' should always be 'No, but I'll take you home and you can ask the nice people there.' ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
That reminds me of the story (probably apocryphal) of the Queen Mum visiting a care home. One of the residents chatted to her with such ease that eventually she gently asked 'Do you know who I am?'. The resident replied sympathetically 'No, love, but pop in the office over there and ask Matron - she's got it on a card.'
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
That reminds me of the story (probably apocryphal) of the Queen Mum visiting a care home. One of the residents chatted to her with such ease that eventually she gently asked 'Do you know who I am?'. The resident replied sympathetically 'No, love, but pop in the office over there and ask Matron - she's got it on a card.'
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
L'organist said:
quote:
Remember the old joke: the default answer to a furious 'Don't you know who I am?' should always be 'No, but I'll take you home and you can ask the nice people there.'
I'm loving it.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Best way to diffuse the celebrity aura - a bit of wicked humour ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Saul the Apostle
[ 21. May 2014, 18:23: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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